Bill,
What's your opinion of the claim in many of the links I provided that caffeinated drinks are not dehydrating as once thought, and therefore any consumed should count as fluid intake?
The Atkins approach
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Bill Glasheen
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It's a mass balance thing.
Many people DO walk around with lower than needed fluid volumes. Heart efficiency is maximized when fluid content in the body is ideal (the Starling law of the heart). There are a number of studies out that show athletic performance degrading with loss of fluids - well before thirst hits. Joints behave better when they are properly hydrated. You are less likely to get kidney stones, eat too much, etc. Check out most exercise books (particularly the more academic ones) and they will stress the problem of fluid volume.
You can overdo anything, and it makes no sense to consume everything you need in the day in one sitting, no matter what the nutrient.
Many more people die from too little as opposed to too much fluid. Many more people have problems from too much caffeine, too much salt, etc. And of course each individual is unique.
- Bill
Many people DO walk around with lower than needed fluid volumes. Heart efficiency is maximized when fluid content in the body is ideal (the Starling law of the heart). There are a number of studies out that show athletic performance degrading with loss of fluids - well before thirst hits. Joints behave better when they are properly hydrated. You are less likely to get kidney stones, eat too much, etc. Check out most exercise books (particularly the more academic ones) and they will stress the problem of fluid volume.
You can overdo anything, and it makes no sense to consume everything you need in the day in one sitting, no matter what the nutrient.
Many more people die from too little as opposed to too much fluid. Many more people have problems from too much caffeine, too much salt, etc. And of course each individual is unique.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Caffeine is a known diuretic. However caffeine is in various concentrations in various fluids. And caffeine will be in various concentrations in the bloodstream depending upon what else you consume when the caffeine hits your stomach.
If you drink lots of expresso on an empty stomach (high caffeine, low fluid), you are in trouble. If you drink lots of a diet sodas during the day (and usually with meals) you may not be in too bad a shape. It all depends on which body system you are talking about.
There are actually two issues here. One is flushing the system out and keeping the stomach full with something. The other is having the right fluid volume on board. The former doesn't care if you drink lots of diet sodas. The latter is the more critical issue.
Actually the same issue applies (somewhat) to "high glycemic index" foods. It's nowhere near as bad to have a piece of candy at the end of a meal as it is to consume it on an empty stomach. The key is what the bloodstream glucose concentration looks like over time. This is a reason why some diet experts say you should always consume a protein with a carbohydrate.
The same issue is true with alcohol consumption vs. effect on the body.
- Bill
If you drink lots of expresso on an empty stomach (high caffeine, low fluid), you are in trouble. If you drink lots of a diet sodas during the day (and usually with meals) you may not be in too bad a shape. It all depends on which body system you are talking about.
There are actually two issues here. One is flushing the system out and keeping the stomach full with something. The other is having the right fluid volume on board. The former doesn't care if you drink lots of diet sodas. The latter is the more critical issue.
Actually the same issue applies (somewhat) to "high glycemic index" foods. It's nowhere near as bad to have a piece of candy at the end of a meal as it is to consume it on an empty stomach. The key is what the bloodstream glucose concentration looks like over time. This is a reason why some diet experts say you should always consume a protein with a carbohydrate.
The same issue is true with alcohol consumption vs. effect on the body.
- Bill
Warning, lengthy nerdy discussion folllows.
Ah, hyponatremia... something I can ramble about for hours. Bill can recommend seeing an MD for dieting advice, and that may be useful for the average person, but there's obviously nothing I can tell him about eating healthy he doesn't already know--maybe more the other way around.
I recall someone at the OJ trial who introduced himself as a toxicologist and explained that's someone who studies toxicity, NOT toxins. He pointed out that low doses of almost anything are no big deal and high doses of good things can be bad.
Water, cholesterol, and arachidonic acid are all essential to life. If you overdrink water or overeat and overproduce cholesterol (usually by eating too much sat fat) you get into trouble. In the setting of an unhealthy diet like most of us eat, omega-3's that interrupt the normal function of arachidonic acid metabolism turn out to be good because they contribute to inflammation. But it all depends on dosage, and arachidonic acid is still your friend.
Re: hyponatremia, here's a brief overview of the major electrolytes in your body. Sodium is the major determinant of the concentration of your blood; inside cells potassium is more important along with tons of other things. The body tightly regulates the concentration of blood because if it doesn't bad things happen. This is because of osmotic pressure, which refers to the way nature likes the concentration of stuff (the sum of all the stuff that's there) to be the same on either side of a membrane, so inside and outside of cells.
The most important control mechanism the body has for this (in addition to thirst) is a hormone that controls how much water you pee out. If you drink plenty of water, the hormone is turned way down and your urine is very watery. If you are dehydrated, the concentration of the blood triggers a release of the hormone, water is reclaimed from urine in the kidney, and the resulting pee is concentrated. This is so you don't pee out all your limited water in the desert someday. Thirst and this hormone (ADH) are major ways the body controls the concentration of stuff, or the osmolality, of blood and the cells.
If you make the blood too concentrated, water will move out of cells to equalize concentrations in and out of cells. This means your brain cells can shrivel up exacctly like a slug that's been salted. The water is sucked out. This pretty much only happens when someone gets dehydrated-the blood sodium rises, the brain shrivels and badness ensures. The kidneys can only conserve so much water, so when obligate urine losses, water lost through sweat and breath isn't replaced, you'll die if you don't get water.
On the other end of things, it takes a special problem or effort to get the concentration too low. Think of three major ways:
1) first, with certain tumors, lung or brain disorders, the body just makes too much of the hormone, no matter how low the concentration of blood gets. The kidneys will always act like the person is dehydrated and hold on to water, so if a person drinks, they won't excrete the water, the osmolality will drop, and the cells will initially be more concentrated than the dilute blood. Water will be sucked into cells to equalize the osmolality across the cell membranes. The cells will swell, and if you're talking about the brain, there's no extra room, the pressure in the head rises, and you can have confusion, seizures, coma and death. This is treated with water restriction. (Something similar occurs when the kidneys or heart or liver are failing).
2) second, if you lose blood or stool or vomit (all the same concentration as blood), your body will eventually sense that there's not enough blood volume around to support all the flow that's needed to different organs. It will hold onto to any salt water it gets to compensate, and it really wants something satly like soup. If you give it water, soda or even gatorade instead, it may decide it needs blood volume so bad it has to let the blood concentration slide, so it retains the water, the osmolality drops and the same things happen. Treated by replacing the missing fluid--SALTY water, either IV or by mouth depending on the cause.
3) third, if you FLOOD the body with water, your blood concentration will eventually drop too. Why not let it all drain out in the urine? Well, the kidney can only do so much and SOME salt is always lost. So water in, minimally salty water out--eventually osmolality falls. Seen in a) mental disorders b) overzealous drinkers in military or raves, as above c) alcoholics that take very low salt beer all day. Prevention is easiest: if you are at risk of dehydration (hiking etc), then drink frequently, but if your urine is coming at the usual rate, and is dilute, and you're not thirsty, then you don't have to flog yourself with fluids. True, you should anticipate losses and drink BEFORE exercise, but not to the point of discomfort. Don't worry, there is TONS of reserve--the kidney can pee out tons of water--and this problem is only limited to people who force water because they're crazy or someone crazy was advising them about their needs. As above, listen to your body. Ecstacy makes that harder by suppressing thirst. Don't take it.
In the absence of medical problems, most of us should make an effort to drink more than we do (and less caffeine--this means you, IJ and Bill!
) and in general keep the urine on the dilute side, which is evidence that you're well hydrated. Once you've done that, you don't have to force any.
Ah, hyponatremia... something I can ramble about for hours. Bill can recommend seeing an MD for dieting advice, and that may be useful for the average person, but there's obviously nothing I can tell him about eating healthy he doesn't already know--maybe more the other way around.
I recall someone at the OJ trial who introduced himself as a toxicologist and explained that's someone who studies toxicity, NOT toxins. He pointed out that low doses of almost anything are no big deal and high doses of good things can be bad.
Water, cholesterol, and arachidonic acid are all essential to life. If you overdrink water or overeat and overproduce cholesterol (usually by eating too much sat fat) you get into trouble. In the setting of an unhealthy diet like most of us eat, omega-3's that interrupt the normal function of arachidonic acid metabolism turn out to be good because they contribute to inflammation. But it all depends on dosage, and arachidonic acid is still your friend.
Re: hyponatremia, here's a brief overview of the major electrolytes in your body. Sodium is the major determinant of the concentration of your blood; inside cells potassium is more important along with tons of other things. The body tightly regulates the concentration of blood because if it doesn't bad things happen. This is because of osmotic pressure, which refers to the way nature likes the concentration of stuff (the sum of all the stuff that's there) to be the same on either side of a membrane, so inside and outside of cells.
The most important control mechanism the body has for this (in addition to thirst) is a hormone that controls how much water you pee out. If you drink plenty of water, the hormone is turned way down and your urine is very watery. If you are dehydrated, the concentration of the blood triggers a release of the hormone, water is reclaimed from urine in the kidney, and the resulting pee is concentrated. This is so you don't pee out all your limited water in the desert someday. Thirst and this hormone (ADH) are major ways the body controls the concentration of stuff, or the osmolality, of blood and the cells.
If you make the blood too concentrated, water will move out of cells to equalize concentrations in and out of cells. This means your brain cells can shrivel up exacctly like a slug that's been salted. The water is sucked out. This pretty much only happens when someone gets dehydrated-the blood sodium rises, the brain shrivels and badness ensures. The kidneys can only conserve so much water, so when obligate urine losses, water lost through sweat and breath isn't replaced, you'll die if you don't get water.
On the other end of things, it takes a special problem or effort to get the concentration too low. Think of three major ways:
1) first, with certain tumors, lung or brain disorders, the body just makes too much of the hormone, no matter how low the concentration of blood gets. The kidneys will always act like the person is dehydrated and hold on to water, so if a person drinks, they won't excrete the water, the osmolality will drop, and the cells will initially be more concentrated than the dilute blood. Water will be sucked into cells to equalize the osmolality across the cell membranes. The cells will swell, and if you're talking about the brain, there's no extra room, the pressure in the head rises, and you can have confusion, seizures, coma and death. This is treated with water restriction. (Something similar occurs when the kidneys or heart or liver are failing).
2) second, if you lose blood or stool or vomit (all the same concentration as blood), your body will eventually sense that there's not enough blood volume around to support all the flow that's needed to different organs. It will hold onto to any salt water it gets to compensate, and it really wants something satly like soup. If you give it water, soda or even gatorade instead, it may decide it needs blood volume so bad it has to let the blood concentration slide, so it retains the water, the osmolality drops and the same things happen. Treated by replacing the missing fluid--SALTY water, either IV or by mouth depending on the cause.
3) third, if you FLOOD the body with water, your blood concentration will eventually drop too. Why not let it all drain out in the urine? Well, the kidney can only do so much and SOME salt is always lost. So water in, minimally salty water out--eventually osmolality falls. Seen in a) mental disorders b) overzealous drinkers in military or raves, as above c) alcoholics that take very low salt beer all day. Prevention is easiest: if you are at risk of dehydration (hiking etc), then drink frequently, but if your urine is coming at the usual rate, and is dilute, and you're not thirsty, then you don't have to flog yourself with fluids. True, you should anticipate losses and drink BEFORE exercise, but not to the point of discomfort. Don't worry, there is TONS of reserve--the kidney can pee out tons of water--and this problem is only limited to people who force water because they're crazy or someone crazy was advising them about their needs. As above, listen to your body. Ecstacy makes that harder by suppressing thirst. Don't take it.
In the absence of medical problems, most of us should make an effort to drink more than we do (and less caffeine--this means you, IJ and Bill!
) and in general keep the urine on the dilute side, which is evidence that you're well hydrated. Once you've done that, you don't have to force any.--Ian
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gmattson
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Happy to hear that Glenn!
I try, but seldom manage to drink that much water. I keep water with me all the time and drink when thirsty. I suspect, like everything, the amount comsumed is determined by lots of factors. Forcing yourself to drink fluids, just to meet some guideline, doesn't seem right.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Re: not drinking unless thirsty.... we should make sure the guideline is based on some sound reasoning, but there is a precedent for altering our diet when our body isn't complaining:
--forcing ourselves to eat when sick so we can regain our strength even if not hungry
--for me, remembering to drink frequently on busy nights because I otherwise forget till I feel reall thirsty
--taking a multivit when there's no evidence of a deficiency
--advocating a heart healthy diet before there's any heart disease
Clearly one can get by without pushing drinking beyond what our body tells us to--the question is, is it better? One reason why--as we enter adulthood our sense of thirst dulls a little from what it was when we were kids.
--forcing ourselves to eat when sick so we can regain our strength even if not hungry
--for me, remembering to drink frequently on busy nights because I otherwise forget till I feel reall thirsty
--taking a multivit when there's no evidence of a deficiency
--advocating a heart healthy diet before there's any heart disease
Clearly one can get by without pushing drinking beyond what our body tells us to--the question is, is it better? One reason why--as we enter adulthood our sense of thirst dulls a little from what it was when we were kids.
--Ian
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Jackie Olsen
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Great thoughts and information everyone. Thanks to all for taking the time to offer the facts over the "great food debate."
A lot of what you say, Bill, makes sooo much sense. I have been easing into the "Natural Eating" program which proposes to eat in harmony with our genetic programming which basically focuses on more vegs & fruits, fish, good fats, limited cheese/eggs and controling or eliminating most everything else.
If you have seen this tool... it's good for figuring out the BMR based upon your weight -- current and desired. http://www.room42.com/nutrition/basal.shtml
Jackie
A lot of what you say, Bill, makes sooo much sense. I have been easing into the "Natural Eating" program which proposes to eat in harmony with our genetic programming which basically focuses on more vegs & fruits, fish, good fats, limited cheese/eggs and controling or eliminating most everything else.
If you have seen this tool... it's good for figuring out the BMR based upon your weight -- current and desired. http://www.room42.com/nutrition/basal.shtml
Jackie
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Guest
I asked Susie to reply to this thread to answer Van's question. She isn't into the "forum thing" so she's not into 1-upping anyone with big giant words and paragraphs to be thread champion. She doesn't over-simplify anything, she just makes it easy to understand. Unlike all you folks, she actually has the "responsibility" of prescribing the proper diet to people on an individual basis. That is nice that you guys have read all those books, so has Susie. She and her collegues in the nutrition field have not seen any real breakthroughs that have convinced them that their patients require something "new wave" in their diet. That doesn't mean they aren't watching, it's just that from what I understand, everything that's come out is not exactley bullet proof. Keep in mind, Susie gets people coming into her office who are HUGE and could probably drop dead any minute. She's not gonna yakkety yak about the difference between glycogen and sugar, glucose and triglycerides with this person, she's gonna help this person get better. Also, some know-at-all personal trainers have given their "advice" on nutrition (i'm sure it was quite impressive) to folks without reffering them to the dietician and where dealt with by the management. I believe someone may have been let go. So much for all that knowledge.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Susie is a precious resource, and I for one deeply appreciate her contributions. I also like her no-nonsense expression of the world the way she sees it. She's a professional in every sense of the word, and we are fortunate to have her stop by. Please give her my very best, and thank her for me. She is most welcome here any time.
The sad thing about diet and the medical community is that the amount of training most medical students get on this subject is often a lecture or two in a class. Physicians should be spearheading the effort to deal with the obesity epidemic, and they unfortunately are woefully unprepared.
Just how bad is it? How desperate are people that legions of snake oil salesmen (and women) would take advantage of them with their diet-du-jour? Well consider that in our health plan that we have a one hundred fourteen percent inflation in costs for the surgical treatment of morbid obesity. What's a gastric bypass? Well basically they sew your mouth shut, only they do it instead to your stomach for cosmetic reasons. To call this "extreme" is an understatement. The only medication that was doing any good (fen phen) was pulled off the market because it caused heart valve problems. The only people happy now are the lawyers.
Meanwhile, the obesity epidemic rages on. Not only are there cosmetic consequences, but it triggers a whole host of other health problems too numerous to mention. If you look at the top ten "high inflation" conditions in my health plan, almost all of them are obesity related.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. When the status quo isn't working, expect folks to rock the boat a bit.
Too bad individuals won't take more personal responsibility in this quest for a better life...
- Bill
The sad thing about diet and the medical community is that the amount of training most medical students get on this subject is often a lecture or two in a class. Physicians should be spearheading the effort to deal with the obesity epidemic, and they unfortunately are woefully unprepared.
Just how bad is it? How desperate are people that legions of snake oil salesmen (and women) would take advantage of them with their diet-du-jour? Well consider that in our health plan that we have a one hundred fourteen percent inflation in costs for the surgical treatment of morbid obesity. What's a gastric bypass? Well basically they sew your mouth shut, only they do it instead to your stomach for cosmetic reasons. To call this "extreme" is an understatement. The only medication that was doing any good (fen phen) was pulled off the market because it caused heart valve problems. The only people happy now are the lawyers.
Meanwhile, the obesity epidemic rages on. Not only are there cosmetic consequences, but it triggers a whole host of other health problems too numerous to mention. If you look at the top ten "high inflation" conditions in my health plan, almost all of them are obesity related.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. When the status quo isn't working, expect folks to rock the boat a bit.
Too bad individuals won't take more personal responsibility in this quest for a better life...
- Bill
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gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Judge throws Macdonald lawsuit out!
Some lawyer convinced loyal and obese Macdonald customers to suit the fatburger people for selling them a product that made them fat!
I understand most of the people suing, were willing to take their settlement in product coupons!
Score one for sanity!
I understand most of the people suing, were willing to take their settlement in product coupons!
Score one for sanity!
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
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jorvik
Sounds good to me......I expect a couple of ice cubes would add to the intake............Yeh that sounds cool, I can go with that one 
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Guest
Sounds like "Dr. A" is changing his tune:
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/
check out the video on the Atkins diet.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/
check out the video on the Atkins diet.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
