Uechi and Fitness Standards
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Guest
I agree minimum fitness testing is silly. It's a device the military and police forces use to make sure the desk jockies haven't consumed too many jelly donuts and brewskies over the past year."It seems silly to say that a shodan has to be able to run a mile in X minutes or do X pushups... but isn't there SOME minimum we'd like to see? "
It's a martial art not an arobics class...thats why we wear a gi instead of tights and leg warmers
So why not give a martial test to dan candidates. I'd be happy to fight ten fresh guys of dan rank for two minutes each as a fitness test on my dan test. Back to back no rest. If I don't soundly thump most of them ....well then I guess I'm a fat and out of shape old guy. To me that's a fitness test.
Push ups and jogging are exercise...if we start testing for our ability to exercise I feel we are becoming Tae Bo Warriors with out the marketing savey. If we want to be fitness guro's then cash in on it folks
I dislike governing bodies, committees etc. I just like to get out on the floor and sweat, I train for violent encounters...I hope I never go there again...but if I go I'll not be messing up the EBG with my ability to do push ups and run.
I'll mess him up with my resolve and my countless hours of contract training. The Dog Brothers have it right.
Let us not sully the name of Uechi by turning what Kanbun gave us into an organizational fitness parade. I suspect Kanbun wouldn't have been too impressed by ones ability to run. He wasn't training folks to "Run away"he was training them to fight. I don't think pushups helped much when he set about cleaning up the Wakiyama neighbor hood.
Let's not the politicaly correct backlash from the health care sector and insurance sector derail what the dan test is about! (No offence to the fine folks who look after our needs in these area's) These financial and social issues have nothing to do with the Dan test.
Tougher tests...sure I'm all for it. No insult intended but we are less than we were. Lets not pass out rank unless earned. But lets not base it on an arobics class...lets test the ability to use the principles of Uechi.
Everyone on earth can run, do pushups and squats. You can do this with out joining a dojo .
How about we test if the candidate is a tough MF. Hey how about we test if he can perform Uechi?Just my opinion
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GSantaniello
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- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
2green,
Please know that as a member of the New England I.U.K.F. test board, we have discussed such matter and we will not be implimenting such standards at this time. So if you are of this region, don't worry about it.
As far as other organizations and regional boards, they will have the option to agree upon their own standards of such.
To your question and point, i would say this, if a group or board of promotional officials decide to impliment a standard of fitness, it would only have to meet the agreement of said individuals making that decision.
It would only make sense that they themselves would also have to be equal to that same level of expectation of fitness.
Spike,
Your comments on the subject are well taken. I agree with your observations.
As my previous post express my feelings on the subject.
Respectfully,
Please know that as a member of the New England I.U.K.F. test board, we have discussed such matter and we will not be implimenting such standards at this time. So if you are of this region, don't worry about it.
As far as other organizations and regional boards, they will have the option to agree upon their own standards of such.
To your question and point, i would say this, if a group or board of promotional officials decide to impliment a standard of fitness, it would only have to meet the agreement of said individuals making that decision.
It would only make sense that they themselves would also have to be equal to that same level of expectation of fitness.
Spike,
Your comments on the subject are well taken. I agree with your observations.
As my previous post express my feelings on the subject.
Respectfully,
Last edited by GSantaniello on Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gary S.
I don't think anyone is trying to "sully" Uechi and bowing to PC backlash from the health sector. Rather, this thread is a result of the fact that Americans are a bit chubby and out of shape and that American Uechi practitioners are not immune to the culture they live in. Kanbun wouldn't want to see Sanseiryu done in leotards but I also know from the impressive fitness (just look at a photo of some masters who are in far better shape than many who are decades their junior) masters have maintained that they have a different conception of a martial artist's fitness than some American examples these days. My proposal is that instructors help their students become better martial artists, and since many of us have fitness problems, we may well require fitness solutions. Gun expertise or defense awareness wasn't part of the curriculum in 1897, but it is reasonable to know about it now, and the health world is also changing. Perhaps instructors should know more about fitness--I know several people who have benefitted in and out of martial arts class from Bill's sound fitness advice. That doesn't seem so unreasonable to me....
Here's an interesting tangent... people are worried about regimenting a fitness curriculum, which seems fine. Most have been comfortable with flexible, individually guided fitness advice... why has no one ever flexibilized testing in other avenues, such as oft discussed modifications to Seisan Bunkai?
Here's an interesting tangent... people are worried about regimenting a fitness curriculum, which seems fine. Most have been comfortable with flexible, individually guided fitness advice... why has no one ever flexibilized testing in other avenues, such as oft discussed modifications to Seisan Bunkai?
--Ian
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GSantaniello
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- Location: Randolph, Ma. U.S.A.
Quote:
" Rather, this thread is a result of the fact that Americans are a bit chubby and out of shape and that American Uechi practitioners are not immune to the culture they live in."
Absolutely ! Certainly your point has much merit. The foods most of us eat and the health & Fitness levels of us as a whole, is without a doubt. out of sight. One just needs to look about and it is clear to see.
I am also quilty of allowing the pattern to have a negative effect. The discipline that is required to maintain good health and fitness is very dificult in our "fast food" society high fat, sugar and carb. contents in almost everything that we eat.
Dieting, as i have found is a science within itself. As the awareness of such is not common place. Sacrificing pizza, fried foods, ice creams etc. is not an easy task for those accustomed to such eating regimes.
At any rate, it is the individuals' responsibility to attain whatever fitness levels they wish to maintain. We can only reasonably expect those who are testing for rank to be capable of passing the reguired material to level of "acceptability' of those chosen to represent the board of promotions.
If one wishes to impliment a fitness program at their dojo, it would stand to reason that all exsisting and potential new students be informed that such is a requirement in addition to their karate requirements.
One may find that many are not signing up for that. Where as i do not run a dojo I therefore can not speak on the positive or negative effects such would have.
" why has no one ever flexibilized testing in other avenues, such as oft discussed modifications to Seisan Bunkai? "
Please clarify what is meant ? As i have been involved in many discussions pertaining to Seisan Bunkie applications and within the N.E. I.U.K.F. modifications in such have been encouraged.
In 2nd dan and above testing, creativity is now encouraged in "application" of movements. I have known others that also have adapted some "variation" within their techniques.
Although many dojo's do encourage same traditional applications to be performed by all, that does fall into regimented uniforminty for all within that group, organization or dojo.
Of course their must be a format that all follow in learning up to certain ranks. hat would be the traditional teaching. However, beyond that, one should always seek out what works best for them individually.
Just my opinion on the subject.
Respectfully,
" Rather, this thread is a result of the fact that Americans are a bit chubby and out of shape and that American Uechi practitioners are not immune to the culture they live in."
Absolutely ! Certainly your point has much merit. The foods most of us eat and the health & Fitness levels of us as a whole, is without a doubt. out of sight. One just needs to look about and it is clear to see.
I am also quilty of allowing the pattern to have a negative effect. The discipline that is required to maintain good health and fitness is very dificult in our "fast food" society high fat, sugar and carb. contents in almost everything that we eat.
Dieting, as i have found is a science within itself. As the awareness of such is not common place. Sacrificing pizza, fried foods, ice creams etc. is not an easy task for those accustomed to such eating regimes.
At any rate, it is the individuals' responsibility to attain whatever fitness levels they wish to maintain. We can only reasonably expect those who are testing for rank to be capable of passing the reguired material to level of "acceptability' of those chosen to represent the board of promotions.
If one wishes to impliment a fitness program at their dojo, it would stand to reason that all exsisting and potential new students be informed that such is a requirement in addition to their karate requirements.
One may find that many are not signing up for that. Where as i do not run a dojo I therefore can not speak on the positive or negative effects such would have.
" why has no one ever flexibilized testing in other avenues, such as oft discussed modifications to Seisan Bunkai? "
Please clarify what is meant ? As i have been involved in many discussions pertaining to Seisan Bunkie applications and within the N.E. I.U.K.F. modifications in such have been encouraged.
In 2nd dan and above testing, creativity is now encouraged in "application" of movements. I have known others that also have adapted some "variation" within their techniques.
Although many dojo's do encourage same traditional applications to be performed by all, that does fall into regimented uniforminty for all within that group, organization or dojo.
Of course their must be a format that all follow in learning up to certain ranks. hat would be the traditional teaching. However, beyond that, one should always seek out what works best for them individually.
Just my opinion on the subject.
Respectfully,
Gary S.
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Guest
Your correct Ian, No one is trying to detract from the style, everyone is speaking from the heart so to speak. We all want the best for the system and it’s student. However I personally feel if we adopted this course we would further dilute the art. We would get lost in a ton of BS revolving around what is a push up, what is a run etc. More crap that has nothing to do with kata application.I don't think anyone is trying to "sully" Uechi and bowing to PC backlash from the health sector.
But also crap that we should all be doing on our own. BTW, no one runs or does push ups @ my dojo…we devote our time to training Uechi-ryu. I figure for there hard earned bucks 3x2 hours per week they should get more for their money than calisthenics in Japanese. We still break a sweat and leave exhausted. But hey most of the class ride mountain bikes for an hour or more per day. They are fit………….but what is fit?
I’ve trained with marathon runners..Hey we just picked one up in Banff too! The runners are out of air after about 4 minutes of banging.
So these super human fitness jocks that can run forever run out of air when they get hit. Kind of makes me think all those hours and shin splints were a poor investment. I sure wouldn’t put running on the list in a Dan test.
I flew through LA this spring…I agree with you. Hey it’s a Mc Culture thing..too much tube time and fat in the diet…but why change Uechi? Yes diet and life style changes are needed but lets not turn Uechi ryu into the fat farm exercise program because the McCulture is fat and lazy. Fat out of shape people fail the present test …no? We are not promoting poor performers are we?Rather, this thread is a result of the fact that Americans are a bit chubby and out of shape and that American Uechi practitioners are not immune to the culture they live in.
Helll Ian who would.Kanbun wouldn't want to see Sanseiryu done in leotards
Yup scary how folks who do physical work all day decade after decade and eat no fat look so buff! (Settle down Randy)but I also know from the impressive fitness (just look at a photo of some masters who are in far better shape than many who are decades their junior) masters have maintained that they have a different conception of a martial artist's fitness than some American examples these days.
Instructors should help students and if they can aid in any area so be it! But they do not have to be personal trainers or head doctors… the student must shoulder the responsibility for their training and development.My proposal is that instructors help their students become better martial artists, and since many of us have fitness problems, we may well require fitness solutions.
But we have not made it part of the Dan test…….Gun expertise or defense awareness wasn't part of the curriculum in 1897, but it is reasonable to know about it now,
Nothing wrong with fitness and it’s great to have knowledgable help….do instructors need to also guide their students through the financial investment world?Perhaps instructors should know more about fitness--I know several people who have benefitted in and out of martial arts class from Bill's sound fitness advice. That doesn't seem so unreasonable to me....
I agree with being healthy, I agree with flexibility in ones training…but I think it’s a mistake to etch anything in stone…as soon as you do it becomes another level of beauraucracy.Here's an interesting tangent... people are worried about regimenting a fitness curriculum, which seems fine. Most have been comfortable with flexible, individually guided fitness advice... why has no one ever flexibilized testing in other avenues, such as oft discussed modifications to Seisan Bunkai?
We are beter off allowing people to chose to be fit…legislating it will be as successful as your war on drugs.
Let people fail their dan test because they are fat lazy and eat schit.
If we start scoring 10 points for push ups and 5 for running…sooner or later some one is going to say but if you can do more push up,s faster push ups…well lets over look the fact this candidate just can’t fight…he can do more one handed pushups than anyone. Give him the belt he is fit!
Hell they only cost $ 7.95 , why test just buy one.
I’m not part of this association… but I still advise caution. If it ain’t broke why fix it.
If it is broke, determine what is broke before you try to fix it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fitness testing
FWIW,
IMO, a fitness test for dan rank just isn't necessary.
I agree with the New England IUKF board that it is up to individual instructors to determine who is ready to test.
If instructors are sending up those who can't get thourgh the test without a lot of "huffing and puffing" then the board needs to have a discussion with the instructor.
Of course, if any members of the board or any of the instructors couldn't get through the test without "huffing and puffing" then the President or other governing committee needs to needs to have a gentle conversation with these folks taking into consideration age, ailments, disabilities and injuries.
Personally, I cant run due to surgery related to a torn menisucs suffered over twnety years ago. However, three times a week, I am in a gym cycling 8 to 12 miles on a mountain progam for 30 to 45 minutes.
Would I pass the minimum fitness test? Probably?? Would it matter? NO!!
Consider that sparring relies on explosive movements and broken rhythm. Jogging, swimming or cycling for miles a day does not build the type of explosiveness that sets apart the best sparrers. To train appropriately, one needs to do specific activity exercises (i.e. sparring multiple matches over a 20 or 30 minute session). How many of us do that in our classes?
Bill, correct me if I am wrong but if I want to develop speed in my punches I have to practice quick and fast punching techniques with proper body mechanics. Right? Will running, jogging, swimming help me to achieve this? Will any of these cardio exercises help me achieve kime, rootedness in my stance of proper targeting? Will they aid in achieving proper kata form and function? Will my blocks be stronger and crisper because of all of this cardio traning?
For self-defense, will running, cycling or jogging really present a significant advantage in applying real-life self-defense techniques? Will I be able to withstand stronger hits from opponents because of the cardio work?
If cardio work does not help:
sparring explosiveness,
kata form,
punching,
kicking,
targeting,
kime,
rootedness,
blocking,
self-defense techniques,
kote-kitae,
ashi-kitae or
sanchin-kitae
then why set a cardio fitness standard?
Now having said that, if the candidate can't perform with proper form due to lack of aerobic conditioning then he/she should be invited to come back and retest.
Oh, but you say, boxers run, cycle, swim, skip rope. True, but they also box hundreds? thousands? of rounds and engage in lots of other specific activities to make sure they at least survive the fight.
Do you have 8 to 10 hrs a day to train as hard as boxers?
If not, isn't your time better spent focused on the specific activities required for your rank and the next which, should, in theory, keep or elevate your aerobic conditioning?
Lastly, recognition for senior ranks comes not just from physical perormance but also for contributions to the art outside of the physical realm (i.e. teaching, writing, etc.)
Thus, O-Sensei Ahti Kaend was, in his last days, only able to perform the three main katas but he did so with impeccable form, in front of an Okinawan board, who passed him for eigth degree, which was so richly deserved. Should he have been denied this promotion because he coudn't walk three miles (never mind run it)?
Best regards,
Mike D.
Los Angeles
IMO, a fitness test for dan rank just isn't necessary.
I agree with the New England IUKF board that it is up to individual instructors to determine who is ready to test.
If instructors are sending up those who can't get thourgh the test without a lot of "huffing and puffing" then the board needs to have a discussion with the instructor.
Of course, if any members of the board or any of the instructors couldn't get through the test without "huffing and puffing" then the President or other governing committee needs to needs to have a gentle conversation with these folks taking into consideration age, ailments, disabilities and injuries.
Personally, I cant run due to surgery related to a torn menisucs suffered over twnety years ago. However, three times a week, I am in a gym cycling 8 to 12 miles on a mountain progam for 30 to 45 minutes.
Would I pass the minimum fitness test? Probably?? Would it matter? NO!!
Consider that sparring relies on explosive movements and broken rhythm. Jogging, swimming or cycling for miles a day does not build the type of explosiveness that sets apart the best sparrers. To train appropriately, one needs to do specific activity exercises (i.e. sparring multiple matches over a 20 or 30 minute session). How many of us do that in our classes?
Bill, correct me if I am wrong but if I want to develop speed in my punches I have to practice quick and fast punching techniques with proper body mechanics. Right? Will running, jogging, swimming help me to achieve this? Will any of these cardio exercises help me achieve kime, rootedness in my stance of proper targeting? Will they aid in achieving proper kata form and function? Will my blocks be stronger and crisper because of all of this cardio traning?
For self-defense, will running, cycling or jogging really present a significant advantage in applying real-life self-defense techniques? Will I be able to withstand stronger hits from opponents because of the cardio work?
If cardio work does not help:
sparring explosiveness,
kata form,
punching,
kicking,
targeting,
kime,
rootedness,
blocking,
self-defense techniques,
kote-kitae,
ashi-kitae or
sanchin-kitae
then why set a cardio fitness standard?
Now having said that, if the candidate can't perform with proper form due to lack of aerobic conditioning then he/she should be invited to come back and retest.
Oh, but you say, boxers run, cycle, swim, skip rope. True, but they also box hundreds? thousands? of rounds and engage in lots of other specific activities to make sure they at least survive the fight.
Do you have 8 to 10 hrs a day to train as hard as boxers?
If not, isn't your time better spent focused on the specific activities required for your rank and the next which, should, in theory, keep or elevate your aerobic conditioning?
Lastly, recognition for senior ranks comes not just from physical perormance but also for contributions to the art outside of the physical realm (i.e. teaching, writing, etc.)
Thus, O-Sensei Ahti Kaend was, in his last days, only able to perform the three main katas but he did so with impeccable form, in front of an Okinawan board, who passed him for eigth degree, which was so richly deserved. Should he have been denied this promotion because he coudn't walk three miles (never mind run it)?
Best regards,
Mike D.
Los Angeles
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You make a good point, Mike, about the definition of martial fitness. Indeed (referencing a previous comment), I do not view a marathon runner as someone in good martial fitness. Rather barring any additional training, I would consider that individual a major project.
We need a combination of physical attributes to do well in a karate test and - more importantly - perform as well as possible in a variety of self defense venues. Aerobic capacity is but one component of the bigger picture. Whenever someone mentions fitness, many drum up the picture of soft women in leotards dancing to disco. Those who are educated in that arena (I picked my knowledge up here and there) know better.
It would serve us all well to note the same kind of protest here that comes forth whenever Van preaches about mindset. We all have a lot to learn, and many opportunities to improve. Like someone who needs to drive better than the next guy in a race of some specific venue, I'll take the better car any day, thank you very much. When you get down to that as a metaphor, the car enthusiast knows it's a lot more than the EPA mileage figures posted on the windshield.
- Bill
We need a combination of physical attributes to do well in a karate test and - more importantly - perform as well as possible in a variety of self defense venues. Aerobic capacity is but one component of the bigger picture. Whenever someone mentions fitness, many drum up the picture of soft women in leotards dancing to disco. Those who are educated in that arena (I picked my knowledge up here and there) know better.
It would serve us all well to note the same kind of protest here that comes forth whenever Van preaches about mindset. We all have a lot to learn, and many opportunities to improve. Like someone who needs to drive better than the next guy in a race of some specific venue, I'll take the better car any day, thank you very much. When you get down to that as a metaphor, the car enthusiast knows it's a lot more than the EPA mileage figures posted on the windshield.
- Bill
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Guest
Those who are educated in that arena (I picked my knowledge up here and there) know better.
Are you claiming superiority? You know better because your better educated in the area? Well heck why have a debate about it . With your bits of knowledge from here and there and your position on the board should be all thats required drag everyone kicking and screaming from the darkness and invoke fitness tests.
Those who are educated in the areathe other side of the coin I suspect is those who are not, who don't know any better? Would that be the stupid uneducated folk?
Thanks for the reminder Bill, nothings changed.
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RACastanet
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- Location: Richmond, VA
Laird said "Are you claiming superiority? You know better because your better educated in the area?"
Laird: I did not see this comment as meant to be demeaning. Bill does know quite a bit about fitness and physiology and I have benefitted from his guidance. It is far better to train with/under someone who knows the human body so well than someone who will just beat on you without regard to potential short and long term damage. You can train your body to take a beating, but you are giving up something long term... think Ali as a worst case example.
Regarding martial fitness, I can claim first hand knowledge about how the best of the best train for combat. The Marines are training for maximum anerobic and aerobic fitness, plus survival mindset. If you fight someone trained in this manner, you better be capable of a protracted battle because unless you take them out with your first blow, you are not going to last long enough to win a fight.
Back to the original question, very few civilian dojos would want to train in this fashion. Probably a few do. However, it would not appeal to the average martial artist. Personally, I do my extreme training outside of the Uechi dojo.
Regards, Rich
Laird: I did not see this comment as meant to be demeaning. Bill does know quite a bit about fitness and physiology and I have benefitted from his guidance. It is far better to train with/under someone who knows the human body so well than someone who will just beat on you without regard to potential short and long term damage. You can train your body to take a beating, but you are giving up something long term... think Ali as a worst case example.
Regarding martial fitness, I can claim first hand knowledge about how the best of the best train for combat. The Marines are training for maximum anerobic and aerobic fitness, plus survival mindset. If you fight someone trained in this manner, you better be capable of a protracted battle because unless you take them out with your first blow, you are not going to last long enough to win a fight.
Back to the original question, very few civilian dojos would want to train in this fashion. Probably a few do. However, it would not appeal to the average martial artist. Personally, I do my extreme training outside of the Uechi dojo.
Regards, Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
For what it's worth, the way I read it was just that he knows better than to think fitness is synonymous with softies dancing to disco in leotards. Not that he knows better than everyone about the subject as a whole.uglyelk wrote:Those who are educated in that arena (I picked my knowledge up here and there) know better.
Are you claiming superiority? You know better because your better educated in the area?
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benzocaine
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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Hey Laird...
Stop picking on Bill. Seems that you always focus on anything that could remotely be read in a negative manner when Bill says it.
Why not read the thought in the manner Bill intended?
Why not read the thought in the manner Bill intended?
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
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Guest
Re: Hey Laird...
I thought I had. Judging by the feeding frenzie, It appears I might be wrong .gmattson wrote:Why not read the thought in the manner Bill intended?
For the record George I don't pick on anyone
I seem to bump heads with the man from time to time. Something in his posting style . Best way to prevent it is to stay off his street.
Bill sorry if I have misinterpreted you. I didn't drop by to cause trouble as George suggests. The number of folks coming to your aid speaks volumes. Maybe if I were to meet you in person one day I might read you differently.
In the mean time I'll go back to lurk mode and keep my comments.
