My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:00 am

Oh and while we are getting our testosterone coursing through our veins, let's not forget the last all Okinawa tournament. Who were the Uechi champions last year? No...none of our often-mentioned heroes.

World Champion Margaret Chojin
World Champion Deb Downing
World Champion Maria Sophotasio

And their instruction starts in Greece, with Buzzy Durkin, continues with the fine leadership and charisma of Gary Khoury, and is most definitley affected by another of Gary's teachers - Ron Fagen.

THEY are my latest hero(in)es.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I am not worthy!!

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:10 am

Gary is a fine man. I am glad for him and all his many experiences, including those that he has through Van et al.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 5:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>World Champion Margaret Chojin
World Champion Deb Downing
World Champion Maria Sophotasiou

And their instruction starts in Greece, with Buzzy Durkin, continues with the fine leadership and charisma of Gary Khoury, and is most definitely affected by another of Gary's teachers - Ron Fagen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha..Ha..But look at the way they train, combining so many stellar components.

Deb Downing will be spending time in Paris, training with Shinjo sensei's protégé.

She has promised me private lessons when she gets back. She is one formidable Uechi-ka as she is good looking.

Let the testosterone flow..Haven’t smelled much of it lately.

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Van Canna

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:16 am

Hi Everyone:

I am glad that this is generating discussion and thought, but sad if it lead to any hard feelings.

Thank you George Sensei for posting your answers to my questions.

I also found your comments about the lack of leg kicks early on interesting. Since roundhouse kicks are the tool for leg kicks, and no Uechi kata has that technique specifically in them, perhaps that should not be too shocking.

Were there any kicks used? If so what ones went to the body? I find it hard to imagine kicks above the waist, other than perhaps a front kick to the midsection.

I am going to expand on my problem with generic sport sparring. The term I have used is generic and I am not the only one who uses it. At a seminar a few years ago a very good Chito Ryu stylist was teaching a session on sparring. He made it very clear that the rules generated a specific generic form of sparring. It did not mater if you were Goju, Chito, Shotokan, ****o or Uechi or any style of karate, to be successful under the tournament form EVERYONE looked the same. EVERYONE fought the same.

That form is very specific. It has the hands down with the rear hand almost chambered for pretty much the only technique that scores -- the reverse punch (why do you think the proposed rules had two points for kicks -- no one did more than the reverse punch). The competitors bounce back and forth. The stance is elongated (remember no leg kicks). The competitors drive in (with admirable speed) and pull out just as quickly after one technique so that there is no confusion should the other guy fire back. Under the rules this is the form that is successful and that is why everyone does it.

I will say that Uechi Ryu is distinctly different than any other karate style I have seen. While I have not seen them all I have seen a number. Do what ever you wish in your training, but a Uechi Ryu Dan test should display Uechi Ryu.

I do not like the form of generic sport sparring. I do not like the hand positioning. I do not like the elongated stance. I do not like the linear concentration. I do not like the forms of movement used. I do not like the lack of in close fighting. I do not like the bouncing back and forth, up and down, all around. I do not like that the only technique they like to score is the reverse punch. I do not like that, while they score the ridge hand, I have to hook it out and away from my body as I deliver it (at least up here you do).

You know I often have my oldest daughter look over a post for me just to make sure my passion doesn't get the better of me. She asked about my point about the ridge hand. I explained that I had a friend who did a lot of point sparring in my school one night and I was commenting to my students that a ridge hand was allowed and I demonstrated it. I fire it right from fighting position in a direct line to the target. My friend pointed out that in tournaments the ridge hand is only allowed if it hooks out away from the body as it is delivered. I exclaimed "but then he'd see it." He explained that this way you make sure the judges see it. My way was too hidden. My daughter pointed out that this might just be my problem with generic sparring, our entire approach to karate is different.

For sparring I think there has to be some contact, but I understand liability issues. I acknowledge that nothing will fully simulate a real fight, that was never my point. I think it should be a manner that reflects the uniqueness of Uechi Ryu amongst karate.

For those wishing to compete in, or have their schools take part in open tournaments, then by all means work on your generic sport sparring, but it is a form that I will never teach in my school.

I had a Chito Ryu black belt in my school just Thursday night working out. He is one excellent black belt and martial artist. There were certainly things that were similar in what he did to what we did. But it is the differences that mattered. They of course do not rely on Sanchin stance and since, when sparring, they also drive in and then out there isn't the close quarters work, so no need to go into Sanchin. The blocking is harder and the grabbing is different. Uechi is different.

Interestingly enough he mentioned the difficulty many of his style have over the importance of sport sparring. Basically the very same discussion we are having.

Ijr posted:

"Also, you asked about how you would deal with two mismatched testers, I think that is part of the test. When we spar at class there are often discrepancies in talent, the better student needs to adjust and work with the less skilled student. I know that if I was put into the ring with Gary K. I would not last long if he decided to finish it quick, but I also know that he has enough skill to allow a match to go on allow me to show my stuff and allow him to show his stuff also."

I think this is an excellent point. There are many levels of Shodan etc. Black Belt represents a great deal of factors. One of those would be to acknowledge any discrepancy and allow the lessor candidate to also show what they can do. A good black belt candidate should be able to exert that amount of control.

I will be over the next year investigating what the heck I mean by some form that reflects the uniqueness of Uechi Ryu. Very unfair to drop a line like that on George Sensei without something more specific.

One thing this discussion has made me reconsider exploring is the need for some good fee form banging.

Rick

(I'm no senior so everyone post)

Post by **gmattson** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:19 am

ljr: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>as someone who tested for his shodan a couple of weeks ago, I can tell you that I was disappointed with the change to "point" sparring. We currently do not do any "point" practice except before a tournament. All of our sparring allows leg kicks, grabbing/grapling and all Uechi techniques. I also believe that sparring at a Dan test cannot be completely real, but I would like to see it at least go back to the old style. I know that I am more than willing to give up a shot to my midsection if that allows me to to get in a better shot or takedown.

Personally I dislike point sparring and would rather go for continuous two minute rounds.

Also, you asked about how you would deal with two mismatched testers, I think that is part of the test. When we spar at class there are often discrepencies in talent, the better student needs to adjust and work with the less skilled student. I know that if I was put into the ring with Gary K. I would not last long if he decided to finish it quick, but I also know that he has enough skill to allow a match to go on allow me to show my stuff and allow him to show his stuff also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In your dojo, where your sensei determines the "rules" of contact, you feel safe knowing even though he is a better fighter, your sensei will not hurt you. This is the place for you to be trained and to experience being on-the-edge. But at a dan test, you really don't know that the person you are matched with will have the same consideration for you as your sensei. His sensei may have told him that it is good Uechi to bust your legs and knock you out! Because that is the way he trains with his sensei.

If you were going up for shodan, you and your partner may have never been to a test and therefore only know what to expect from what your two different sensei told you!

You are under the impression, based on your sensei's teachings and your experience sparring with him, that a far stronger opponent will "check" his power techniques (rules???) if necessary and so will you.

Now lets say he is Ralph Hallett, who is going up for the same rank and comes from a dojo where they go 100% contact. And you get a broken rib that punctures your lung. Will you feel that the test board who allowed this to happen let you down? Will your family, who must pay your medical bills feel that you were treated in a reasonable manner? Will your family's lawyers take the position that the test board acted in a reasonable manner by condoning a test where full body contact with the toes was allowed?

Would the jury decide that the test board acted reasonably? And would Van and my home owner's policies (with the umbrella coverage) pay for all the legal expenses and probable damages?

And again, I don't know what rank you went up for, but until two years ago, all we did was point fighting at tests. We didn't announce winners and didn't stop the match before the time limit because a candidate received so many points, but we did stop the match and announce a good technique. That is all we did at the last test.

Van and the board awarded Justin Testa the best candidate overall, based on his superior overall Uechi performance. His sparring was fantastic. Strong, accurate and well controlled attacks and defense. Justin also practice non-stop sparring in our dojo and allow "shoots" and takedowns. We allow this because I'm in control of the matches and I take responsibility for the behavior of all my students.

In the test I must wear another hat... that of a person who must have the best interests of all candidates in mind, regardless of their abilities, attitudes and individual dojo experiences. I didn't change the test. It came off exactly the way the teachers voted to conduct the N.E. test. The only thing I did was to go back to stopping the match after a good technique and following the demands of our group's insurance policy regarding safty and equipment.

I did not take away anyone's ability to demonstrate good karate techniques. I simply required all candidates to follow some simple rules that leveled the playing field for everyone. We had a great test. Everyone performed well and although some people may have wanted to hit their opponents harder and be hit harder themselves, as the person who must take ultimate responsibility, I think I acted in the best interest of both the candidates and the board.

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GEM

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:38 pm

** <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I remember a story of a Uechi senior (forget which one, anyone
remember?) watching a "Uechi" match and leaving part way through upset with
what had become of the art he'd learned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was SHIMABUKURO Natsukichi Senpai (TOYAMA Sensei's Senior in the
Wakayama Dojo,
who is still alive at 95 in Motobu Peninsula).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Natsukichi Sensei was so disappointed to see a completely
different UechiRyu which Kanbun Sensei didn't teach -- it was aggressive,
there were a lot of injuries, there was no feeling for the old art, no
jiyu kobo based on kata training -- it was just free sparring. It looked
like Western boxing with kicks thrown in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course this refers to the modernization of Uechi-Ryu, the modern/new
style as opposed to the old. Not that it is not good or not effective
[Kihohide Shinjo sensei's sparring skills come to mind] __ just a different
concept, more of an aggressive, attacking format.

And not that the old style practitioners were lacking in destructive
defensive skills honed through the practice of jiyu kobo, which was based on
kata training.

And both old and new style practitioners emphasize the training and
hardening/conditioning of the body and its parts.

For example, according to my information, Shinjo sensei's arm and leg bones
feel like and hit like lead pipes, and we all know how he uses them to break
baseball bats in demonstrations.

Toyama sensei sokusen Geri [ toe kick with retracted toes] is as hard and
deadly as a pointed rock that can draw blood. We have all seen the clip of
his break demonstration.

My information is also that Kanbun Sensei was very emphatic about leg
conditioning, and so is TOYAMA Sensei, and that Leg conditioning
demonstration is part of every Dan test.

And that leg conditioning is done with a serious view to self defense, as in
if you destroy the root of the tree, it won't stand. Destroy the roots of a
tree and the tree falls down. So your roots need to be conditioned.

This conflicts with the information of GEM sensei, and one possible
explanation is that maybe at that time the seniors might have been under
instruction by Kanei sensei not to focus on leg conditioning with the
Americans for some reason left to speculation.

The Toyama sensei group does leg conditioning in every class.

Children are exempt, they don't kick kids
under age 15 or 16, and then only carefully until late teens or adulthood.

There is a growth plate in children that can be broken or shifted easily, so
it's dangerous.

Again Leg conditioning demonstration is part of every Dan test. The
candidate must show his legs are well conditioned.

Favorite self-defense hits by Toyama sensei are to kick the leg (thigh or
inner
thigh) but for serious fighting he goes straight for the knee joint.

I understand that in spite of this above information, there is still a question of whether Kanei Uechi sensei or Tomoyose sensei
taught leg conditioning drills.We will look into it further.

I can see GEM's point about the fear of suits over injuries, and the Hallet example does show the need to conduct safe sparring matches with controlled contact if we are going to require sparring as a part of the Dan test.

I don't see why we are asking a candidate to show restraint or controlled contact to the body and not include this control to leg targets as well, instead of removing the legs as a target. I think controlled leg contact is possible in matches, I have done it, and know many more who can as well.

On the law suit issue, I am not convinced that, first of all, there would be many leg injuries, especially if students condition their legs and are trained to expect leg kicks in sparring as I think they should, for defensive programming reasons.

Secondly,I don't think that a leg injury in sparring matches would really be an actionable personal injury case.

The claimant still has the burden of proving duty, and breach of that duty becoming the proximate cause of his injury.

Since,if my information is correct,leg conditioning has always been a part of our system, and leg kicking in modern day sparring, to test a candidate's ability in the give and take, appears to be a world standard, a plaintiff's attorney would have a tough road to hoe in establishing wrong doing on the part of IUKF and the board.

It would be like a soccer player trying to prevail against the team's coach for injuries received during hard checking, which is part and parcel of the game, like leg conditioning and kicking is part and parcel of our style.

So absent some egregious conduct by the board or by IUKF, I see no serious liability issues.

A signed waiver, would of course help, which allows in Mass. to contract away liability for ordinary negligence.

And in those rare cases of suits being filed, insurance coverage would be applicable. So we must weigh it all in perspective.

How much of tradition are we willing to give up to the fears of injury and liability exposure?

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Van Canna

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 4:39 pm

My further information from Toyama sensei’s group is that all the senior-seniors did leg conditioning drills and used striking the legs in their sparring exchanges as the norm.

So it raises the question why they would not do so in those Saturday classes that GEM attended on Okinawa. Perhaps master Uechi had reservations in teaching that to beginning Americans. Who knows.

My information is also that Kanei sensei did teach leg conditioning drills up until he was no longer able to do it because of health reasons. This would be about mid fifties, when he turned over the teaching of these particular drills to other seniors in the dojo.

Also hindering the understanding was the language barrier, and the
interpretations of what Kanei Sensei said were filtered through the
translator. Some things did not get accurate rendition into English.

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 06, 2002).]

candan · Post by **candan** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:35 pm

GEM <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I happen to know that a number
of people have been hurt with kicks to the legs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I had ACL surgery and know of two others from leg kicks in sparing. My son quit karate from a serious clot in the thigh from leg kicks (9 yrs. old). I am no "wuss" and my legs are well conditioned, but I detest leg kicks in free fighting (break my nose..I don`t make a living with my looks

)and go for a knockout when I receive any with excessive power esp. if to knee or inner leg. May seem like harsh response but I feel I need to make my point.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited April 06, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:24 pm

I know the feeling, Candan.

It evokes the same type of response in most people during sparring matches. You just want to "kill" the guy who took a vicious crack at your knee/leg. So you try to prevent another similar, painful shot, and close with him trying to hurt him, or knock the stuffing out of him, so he won’t do it again.

Have seen this happen many a time, even in Dan testing, when someone who is a bit better conditioned than another, overdoes the leg kicking thing, then complains of excessive contact when he can’t stop a retaliatory strike elsewhere to his body or face, or a slamming take down on his head.

Leg kicking can and does present its own set of problems unless the sparring partners have an understanding.

Yet, a leg kick at full power is something we should try to learn to cope with, in a taking and giving manner.

A good shot to someone’s leg with your conditioned shin will stop [if done skillfully and with power] an adversary in his tracks and maybe prevent you from having to hit him again
[Zankai] to finish the fight.

Also it prepares you physically and mentally to deal with such a shot in the street, without falling to pieces.

But it can also seal your fate in a street fight by causing an excessive force response by your opponent, to include use of weapons, justifying his actions in court by voicing his perception that you were trying to break his leg/knee.

A double-edged sword, to be sure.

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Van Canna

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

My son quit karate from a serious clot in the thigh from leg kicks (9 yrs. old).

There you have serious fault with the sensei.

According to Toyama sensei,no children under the age of 16 should indulge in leg conditioning/kicking because of serious injury potential. Their bone structure has not completed growth.

Later teens is even better.

Something we just learned today through my correspondence with the Zankai group.

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Van Canna

nosib · Post by **nosib** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 1:00 am

An individual who would intentionally kick someone's knee joint in a dojo or tournament environment would cease being a student of mine.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:32 am

Amen.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

go for a knockout when I receive any with excessive power esp. if to knee or inner leg.

And a point I tried to make earlier is that sometimes these types of responses in trained fighters aren't even conscious. If you are going to go full contact to any part of the body, you have to expect full contact responses elsewhere. When I spar, I have some type of understanding with my opponent. When that understanding is violated, all bets are off. This is the deteriorating situation you see in virtually any sport activity. Ultimately there has to be limits, or we should just turn our tutus in and enter UFC matches for our dan tests.

Look...we do ashikitae and ukemi on a regular basis in my dojos, and I test for it on every test. We are game for some level of leg contact, and I expect my people to know how to hit the floor if that happens.

Do we need to have a heavy contact match at a dan test?

Do we need to have some kind of leg kicking? If so, define it. And if you want heavy leg contact, give me a reason why we shouldn't engage in heavy contact elsewhere on the body. Why would you want limits if you are going for realism? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I just think people need to think this thing carefully so we can constructively achieve our end - defining a controlable, insurable, defendable type of fighting that draws the best out of our style without creating some type of fringe activity.

And speaking of trying to define your art in your sparring, why aren't we grabbing more? Dumping people? Grappling? In my book, we are a transition style between the strikers and grapplers. More than a few of us out here can converse in both domains. Why are we dwelling just on leg kicks?

I'm not trying to pour cold water on peoples' ideas here. I would just like everyone to step back a bit and think about what our style is and how we can evaluate it in a jiyu format. Maybe we should have several jiyu formats! Maybe we should leave Okinawa with their wooden floors, and make the padded floors our own standard (and forget the idea of trying to catch up to yesterday's standard). If you want to think big, well...do so! And while we are at it, remember that we don't have to throw every type of fighting into one format. Perhaps we can borrow SEVERAL existing jiyu formats, and demand that our students be able to perform in all of them.

And then think about how we are going to get there. First the process (proper dojo training) must be well defined, well taught, and tested - just like we test kotekitae or bunkai kumite.

Back to lurking...

- Bill

P.S. Rick is right; the floor belongs to all of you.

dominiuno · Post by **dominiuno** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
According to Toyama sensei,no children under the age of 16 should indulge in leg conditioning/kicking because of serious injury potential. Their bone structure has not completed growth.

Later teens is even better.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sensei, what about light to moderate leg conditioning done very sparingly (maybe once a month). I don't think you could call that even conditioning...done so rarely. Would that also be dangerous?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:54 am

You might be surprised to hear that I have my kids do ashikitae. If they are going to get their shins blocked, then I feel it is the responsible thing to do.

We do not engage in ashikitate with sokusens. That's just not very bright, no matter what the age. Save that for your full contact matches. And if you think otherwise, then I suggest you do a little research on anatomy and physiology.

We contact with tops of the foot for upper leg (inside and outside), and soles of the feet (crescent kick) for the lower legs. Both techniques then simulate something you'd do as a real attack (roundhouse sokusen to thigh, or crescent sweep of lower leg). When done this way and in moderation, there's no reason why kids can't engage in this.

We also do cross blocking of roundhouse kicks to further develop the shin. For those that have bony shins, I also encourage them to use rolling pins on them.

I also encourage my students to do a number of strengthening techniques for upper and lower leg. The list is quite long, and especially includes sokusen development exercises. Best to start by building the body internally before you start hitting it.

FWIW.

- Bill

KB · Post by KB » Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:09 am

I cannot see why continuous sparring should necessarily "deteriorate into a "cat and dog" fight", as GEM described it.

Tony-san refers to the impressively tough, yet presumably successful form of sparring adopted by the Enshin style of karate. Kyokushin "knockdown" rules are similar (minus the grabbing, throws and chokes). I have seen a number of knockdown matches (and participated in just one!). The rules are clear. Everyone knows what to expect. The quality of the fighting is, as one might expect, determined by the experience, ability, temperament etc of the participants.

Knockdown karate certainly dispels the myth of "one punch, one kill" (from tsuki to the midsection) and at the same time it proves just how much punshiment the legs can take.

The same knockdown rules also apply to dojo sparring. The "intensity" will, of course , vary from individual to individual, from one dojo to the next, but it is always hard, "honest" kumite and seems to work very well.

Regards,

KB

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