Interesting Max, how in China, when a question is raised about the movements or history, the teachers all have very different opinions.
The same was true on Okinawa in the 50s, when the Uechi instructors all met for the first time to standardize the system. Each teacher had very strong opinions over who was doing things the correct way or the original way.
Funny, how each of us will evolve in our understanding of what was taught to us, in a different way, yet will not appreciate that another person may have taken a different path, which for them is OK.
We must accept the fact that change is inevitable. . . and most importantly, that there is nothing wrong with this.
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GEM
shu shi wa's nephew???
Moderator: Available
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maxwell ainley
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shu shi wa's nephew???
GEM Sensei,
Since you said to me ,get on to the internet and the forums. My understanding of Uechi- Ryu and the diverse veiws within, have increased my understanding of the things you say .
In my own practice my veiws and understanding always seem to change when reaching a new observation post ,I fully admit to wrong veiws , saying the wrong things that upset ,some times this can be sorted out by stopping and giving further reflection .
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max ainley
Since you said to me ,get on to the internet and the forums. My understanding of Uechi- Ryu and the diverse veiws within, have increased my understanding of the things you say .
In my own practice my veiws and understanding always seem to change when reaching a new observation post ,I fully admit to wrong veiws , saying the wrong things that upset ,some times this can be sorted out by stopping and giving further reflection .
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max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
I think though that if you get a room full of people, each with a personal/professional stake in the topic at hand, you're going to always have intense debates and heated arguments no matter the topic. History in general is often the worst at this because the evidence is often quite nebulous, irreproducable, and dependent on subjective interpretation to the extreme.
As someone interested in history in general, I find such conflict generally amusing. But that's probably because I can usually see how different viewpoints were obtained and I don't have a stake in the argument.
The problem with martial arts history is that so much of it is verbal and does not exist in written form, and the interested student like me geneally cannot check what original written sources may exist because of a language barrier. So we're left with a situation where we pretty much have to "confront" someone who has a personal/professional stake in the history if we want to try to learn anything of that history. If you go to one teacher and get his/her version of the history and then try to ask questions based on what you've gotten from other teachers, you frequently run into situations like George and Simon relate.
The end result, as we've heard stated before: Students generally discouraged from inquiring about history and lineages.
True, history and lineage won't make a bit of difference if I'm in a fight for my life. And yes, we need to appreciate the differences in general and the blood, sweat, and tears that can lead to two students of the same teacher ending up with quite different teachings of their own. But those of us who appreciate both history and the martial arts still feel a need to delve into that history and enjoy trying to piece the puzzle together...all the while knowing we're not likely to ever complete the puzzle.
That's why it's so nice when there are forums like this one where you can generally discuss historical topics without it quickly degrading to bitter arguments.
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Glenn
As someone interested in history in general, I find such conflict generally amusing. But that's probably because I can usually see how different viewpoints were obtained and I don't have a stake in the argument.
The problem with martial arts history is that so much of it is verbal and does not exist in written form, and the interested student like me geneally cannot check what original written sources may exist because of a language barrier. So we're left with a situation where we pretty much have to "confront" someone who has a personal/professional stake in the history if we want to try to learn anything of that history. If you go to one teacher and get his/her version of the history and then try to ask questions based on what you've gotten from other teachers, you frequently run into situations like George and Simon relate.
The end result, as we've heard stated before: Students generally discouraged from inquiring about history and lineages.
True, history and lineage won't make a bit of difference if I'm in a fight for my life. And yes, we need to appreciate the differences in general and the blood, sweat, and tears that can lead to two students of the same teacher ending up with quite different teachings of their own. But those of us who appreciate both history and the martial arts still feel a need to delve into that history and enjoy trying to piece the puzzle together...all the while knowing we're not likely to ever complete the puzzle.
That's why it's so nice when there are forums like this one where you can generally discuss historical topics without it quickly degrading to bitter arguments.
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Glenn
shu shi wa's nephew???
Seeing other styles without the "mine is better" mindset inspired a need to search out history ( why are simular styles different). The "Summer of the Tiger" summer camp was when I began to broaden my own veiws. GEM is not one who fears change or his students being exposed to other styles or opinions within his own, that was evident to me at the camp. As for uechi history, I suspect that many have their own opinions or nagging questions but since there is no way to prove or disprove it not often discussed.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
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- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
PAW TECHNIQUES
One of the characteristics of southern style Wu Shu is the extensive use of hand techniques.As far as blocks were concerned only three of the conventional fist-orientated jodan [upper level],chudan [middle level] and gedan [lower level]ukes [blocks] as practiced in goju-ryu karate existed in this Tiger system.These were;
1]chudan soto ude uke -middle outside to inside fore-arm block;
2]chudan uchi ude uke-the middle inside to outside fore-arm block;
3]joge-uke the two-handed upper and lower block which also covers the centre line [chudan]
In Hu Xing Quan the upper level defence was a totally relaxed open-handed swing of the arm; drawing strength from the conditioned limb as its destructive force,this technique appeared rather tame which typifies the principle of hard and soft.
Other mid-section defences utilized the cranes beak [in this system this technique is called Chickens Beak or King Crab Claw];Teisho [palm-heel]; Shuto [knife-hand]; and ura-uke, which is a block with the back of the hand.Being a defensive system geared specifically towards "in-fighting" there did exist other blocks,or redirectins,utilizing alternative parts of the limbs, but the aforementioned prevailed as the more commonly used.
In respect to the lower level parries the contact region of he defenders arm would be the blade, and would usually be accompanied by complete body movement so as to maximize effect.
Apart from the joge-uke technique it appeared that only one lower level defence existed as such, which may sound insufficent but when you consider the "Tiger" practioner spends much of his time in a crouching,stalking, posture ready to pounce or strike at a split second's notice this means that mid-section defences become ineffect , lower-level defences.
max ainley
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max ainley
PAW TECHNIQUES
One of the characteristics of southern style Wu Shu is the extensive use of hand techniques.As far as blocks were concerned only three of the conventional fist-orientated jodan [upper level],chudan [middle level] and gedan [lower level]ukes [blocks] as practiced in goju-ryu karate existed in this Tiger system.These were;
1]chudan soto ude uke -middle outside to inside fore-arm block;
2]chudan uchi ude uke-the middle inside to outside fore-arm block;
3]joge-uke the two-handed upper and lower block which also covers the centre line [chudan]
In Hu Xing Quan the upper level defence was a totally relaxed open-handed swing of the arm; drawing strength from the conditioned limb as its destructive force,this technique appeared rather tame which typifies the principle of hard and soft.
Other mid-section defences utilized the cranes beak [in this system this technique is called Chickens Beak or King Crab Claw];Teisho [palm-heel]; Shuto [knife-hand]; and ura-uke, which is a block with the back of the hand.Being a defensive system geared specifically towards "in-fighting" there did exist other blocks,or redirectins,utilizing alternative parts of the limbs, but the aforementioned prevailed as the more commonly used.
In respect to the lower level parries the contact region of he defenders arm would be the blade, and would usually be accompanied by complete body movement so as to maximize effect.
Apart from the joge-uke technique it appeared that only one lower level defence existed as such, which may sound insufficent but when you consider the "Tiger" practioner spends much of his time in a crouching,stalking, posture ready to pounce or strike at a split second's notice this means that mid-section defences become ineffect , lower-level defences.
max ainley
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max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
FYI, I tried to contact trad@martialartsinprint.co.uk about back issues of this article and my message was returned with a note that the server martialartsinprint.co.uk was not reachable during its four days of trying, possibly due to the server being turned off or its mail system not running. I'll try again but it's always possible this business is out of business.
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Glenn
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Glenn
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
With such a heavy accent placed upon conditioning it follows that many of these toughened areas were, in themselves,used as powerful and injurous attacks.
The striking techniques within Hu Xing Quan I found to be a interesting area of study.As one might expect,these fell into two catergories; open handed strikes which were identical to those found within goju-ryu and other traditional karate disciplines [see "Tiger Forms San San Hu"];and closed-hand strikes which were quite far-removed from my own personal practices. For example, strikes using the fist did not utilize only the index and fore-finger knuckles [in karate this is called "seiken"] but also employed the third and fourth knuckles.Usually the fist would be held with the "tettsui"[hammerfist] edge of the hand parallel to the floor.In other words from the normal seikan position rotate your wrist clockwise through ninety degrees.This position is favoured by Wing Chun stylists,another system of Wu Shu which is believed to have influenced the development of goju-ryu karate.
Variations upon "seikan" were the one knuckle fist[in karate ;ippon-ken] and the middle knuckle fist which, in Wu Shu,is sometimes refered to as the "Dragons Head".
These two strikes would be delivered with the fist held palm downwards and were used in preference to the regular square fist.
max ainley
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max ainley
With such a heavy accent placed upon conditioning it follows that many of these toughened areas were, in themselves,used as powerful and injurous attacks.
The striking techniques within Hu Xing Quan I found to be a interesting area of study.As one might expect,these fell into two catergories; open handed strikes which were identical to those found within goju-ryu and other traditional karate disciplines [see "Tiger Forms San San Hu"];and closed-hand strikes which were quite far-removed from my own personal practices. For example, strikes using the fist did not utilize only the index and fore-finger knuckles [in karate this is called "seiken"] but also employed the third and fourth knuckles.Usually the fist would be held with the "tettsui"[hammerfist] edge of the hand parallel to the floor.In other words from the normal seikan position rotate your wrist clockwise through ninety degrees.This position is favoured by Wing Chun stylists,another system of Wu Shu which is believed to have influenced the development of goju-ryu karate.
Variations upon "seikan" were the one knuckle fist[in karate ;ippon-ken] and the middle knuckle fist which, in Wu Shu,is sometimes refered to as the "Dragons Head".
These two strikes would be delivered with the fist held palm downwards and were used in preference to the regular square fist.
max ainley
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max ainley
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
Conditioning
Tiger Boxing stresses the importance of conditioning [both physically and mentally] and by way of extensive drilling toughens the upper limbs so that they become what feels to be as hard as rock.
To look at,my teacher did not outwardly appear to be that strong,but even whilst passivly demonstrating certain upper level limb blocks against my kicks and punches he would inflict excruciating pain upon certain areas of my body.This was the perfect illustration of that age old concept that attack and defence were one of the same.
Tiger Boxing is one of the five major southern systems of Chinese Martial Arts. The remaining four are; crane,leopard;snake; and dragon [boxing]
At the Southern Shaolin Temple techniques immitating the crane were taught as these were believed to promote correct breathing and thus develop ones internal energy .Movements taken from the leopard were practiced because these were believed to enhance one's physical strength.
The snake was imitated as this was considered exellent mind training, and the Dragon[although fictitious] was taught as this was considered exellent for the training and development of one's spirit.
In a similar vein, the Tiger was taught as this was believed to toughen one's bones.
Judging from what I was experiencing from my master,I believed this too! But whilst there was never any visual bruising on my body , the pain would often linger for a matter of hours,sometimes to the point were I would be forced to record my daily training notes upon magnetic tape as writing would be a physical impossibility; such was the degree of pain and numbness in my forearm which also affected my hand and,in particular, my fingers reducing my script to nothing more than a series of disjointed and almost illegible scribbles!
max ainley
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max ainley
Conditioning
Tiger Boxing stresses the importance of conditioning [both physically and mentally] and by way of extensive drilling toughens the upper limbs so that they become what feels to be as hard as rock.
To look at,my teacher did not outwardly appear to be that strong,but even whilst passivly demonstrating certain upper level limb blocks against my kicks and punches he would inflict excruciating pain upon certain areas of my body.This was the perfect illustration of that age old concept that attack and defence were one of the same.
Tiger Boxing is one of the five major southern systems of Chinese Martial Arts. The remaining four are; crane,leopard;snake; and dragon [boxing]
At the Southern Shaolin Temple techniques immitating the crane were taught as these were believed to promote correct breathing and thus develop ones internal energy .Movements taken from the leopard were practiced because these were believed to enhance one's physical strength.
The snake was imitated as this was considered exellent mind training, and the Dragon[although fictitious] was taught as this was considered exellent for the training and development of one's spirit.
In a similar vein, the Tiger was taught as this was believed to toughen one's bones.
Judging from what I was experiencing from my master,I believed this too! But whilst there was never any visual bruising on my body , the pain would often linger for a matter of hours,sometimes to the point were I would be forced to record my daily training notes upon magnetic tape as writing would be a physical impossibility; such was the degree of pain and numbness in my forearm which also affected my hand and,in particular, my fingers reducing my script to nothing more than a series of disjointed and almost illegible scribbles!
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
As far as knuckle conditioning was concerned[eg.,makiwara and push-ups]this did not really exist.What Master Chang did stress however,was strengthening the back of the hand;the wrist;the knife-edge of the hand [karate's shuto];the opposite [fore-finger]side of the hand[karate's 'haito'or 'ridge-hand'];and both the inner [fleshy] and outer [boney] sides of the fore-arm
As a exponent of goju-ryu,all of the above stated are familiar to me, but there was one area of conditioning which seemed unique to Tiger Boxing [on reflection,perhaps that should read unique to Wu Shu] and that was conditioning the top of the fore-arm.
One particular exercise I was shown which was designed to strengthen this area was called the 'Sanchin Hammer'.
This technique was quite similar to the fore-arm conditioning, or 'uke-tandrn',of Okinawan goju-ryu which was basically a two man full contact drill concluding with a 'hammerfist' [tettsui] strike upon the opponent's bladed region of the fore-arm .
Extremely painful at first this exercise brought back torturous memories of my 'shin-kick' training in Muay Thai [Thai Boxing] whereby one slams the shin into the heavy and almost immovable training bag , contacting with the top [bladed] area of the shin-bone Ouch!
Tiger Feet
As far as kicking techniques were concerned the two forms I learnt after 'Sanchin' [which contained no leg techniques at all] employed only two kinds of kicks ; a frontal kick [identical to goju-ryu's mai geri] which could be delivered with either the ball of the foot or the heel and which was directed towards the opponent's solar plexus,sternum [breast-bone],or bladder ; and a kick aimed toward's the lower limb [reminiscent of goju-ryu's 'kansetsu-geri'] which would utilize the heel.Unlike the karate kick which stresses 'sokuto' [knife-edge of the foot] as the delivery weapon,the Wu Shu exponent has no need for such specific considerations.
This is because he or she invariably works out wearing some kind of footwear; traditionally the black slip-on 'kungfu slpper' made internationally famous by the 'little dragon' himself, whilst more commonly the westernized lace-up 'trainer',plimsole,or sneaker [As a point of interest , both my teacher and interpreter- who was nothing short of my life-line were almost speechless when I arrived for my daily practice barefoot] the targeting of this technque would be the knee,hip,or thigh but of course there exist no limitations .
max ainley
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max ainley
As far as knuckle conditioning was concerned[eg.,makiwara and push-ups]this did not really exist.What Master Chang did stress however,was strengthening the back of the hand;the wrist;the knife-edge of the hand [karate's shuto];the opposite [fore-finger]side of the hand[karate's 'haito'or 'ridge-hand'];and both the inner [fleshy] and outer [boney] sides of the fore-arm
As a exponent of goju-ryu,all of the above stated are familiar to me, but there was one area of conditioning which seemed unique to Tiger Boxing [on reflection,perhaps that should read unique to Wu Shu] and that was conditioning the top of the fore-arm.
One particular exercise I was shown which was designed to strengthen this area was called the 'Sanchin Hammer'.
This technique was quite similar to the fore-arm conditioning, or 'uke-tandrn',of Okinawan goju-ryu which was basically a two man full contact drill concluding with a 'hammerfist' [tettsui] strike upon the opponent's bladed region of the fore-arm .
Extremely painful at first this exercise brought back torturous memories of my 'shin-kick' training in Muay Thai [Thai Boxing] whereby one slams the shin into the heavy and almost immovable training bag , contacting with the top [bladed] area of the shin-bone Ouch!
Tiger Feet
As far as kicking techniques were concerned the two forms I learnt after 'Sanchin' [which contained no leg techniques at all] employed only two kinds of kicks ; a frontal kick [identical to goju-ryu's mai geri] which could be delivered with either the ball of the foot or the heel and which was directed towards the opponent's solar plexus,sternum [breast-bone],or bladder ; and a kick aimed toward's the lower limb [reminiscent of goju-ryu's 'kansetsu-geri'] which would utilize the heel.Unlike the karate kick which stresses 'sokuto' [knife-edge of the foot] as the delivery weapon,the Wu Shu exponent has no need for such specific considerations.
This is because he or she invariably works out wearing some kind of footwear; traditionally the black slip-on 'kungfu slpper' made internationally famous by the 'little dragon' himself, whilst more commonly the westernized lace-up 'trainer',plimsole,or sneaker [As a point of interest , both my teacher and interpreter- who was nothing short of my life-line were almost speechless when I arrived for my daily practice barefoot] the targeting of this technque would be the knee,hip,or thigh but of course there exist no limitations .
max ainley
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max ainley
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
Throughout my entire training I saw no other kicking techniques-no juumping or spinning kicks such as those found within Northern Shaolin Tiger Boxing. When asked about this my sensei informed me [through my interpreter, of course!] that this particular system of Wu Shu does not recognise the need for such elaborate techniques.
Restriting itself to the frontal kick [possibly the most under-estimated of all the fighting arts] and the knee joint kick,Southern Tiger maintains that any other kicking techniques would result in either a forfeiting of one's balance or the taking of unnecessary risks.
Limiting oneself to low target areas one retains a low centre of gravity. In addition to this, low kicks are not only harder to see and thus harder to defend against,but are also faster to unleash and faster to retract whilst at the same involves the least amount of telegraphing through minimal body movement.
As a purely observation, whenever I teach karate or self-defence [especially to females] I tend not to stress so much the mid-section frontal kick ['mai-geri chudan'] as a solar plexus attack , but instead I aim this kick towards the bladder.
An unexpected kick slammed into this sensitive and dangerous region can be absolutely devestating,whilst at the same time not proving too ambitious for even the shortest of defenders.
max ainley
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max ainley
Throughout my entire training I saw no other kicking techniques-no juumping or spinning kicks such as those found within Northern Shaolin Tiger Boxing. When asked about this my sensei informed me [through my interpreter, of course!] that this particular system of Wu Shu does not recognise the need for such elaborate techniques.
Restriting itself to the frontal kick [possibly the most under-estimated of all the fighting arts] and the knee joint kick,Southern Tiger maintains that any other kicking techniques would result in either a forfeiting of one's balance or the taking of unnecessary risks.
Limiting oneself to low target areas one retains a low centre of gravity. In addition to this, low kicks are not only harder to see and thus harder to defend against,but are also faster to unleash and faster to retract whilst at the same involves the least amount of telegraphing through minimal body movement.
As a purely observation, whenever I teach karate or self-defence [especially to females] I tend not to stress so much the mid-section frontal kick ['mai-geri chudan'] as a solar plexus attack , but instead I aim this kick towards the bladder.
An unexpected kick slammed into this sensitive and dangerous region can be absolutely devestating,whilst at the same time not proving too ambitious for even the shortest of defenders.
max ainley
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max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
Hi Max,
Not sure how much is left of the article, but I wanted to let you know we (or at least I) are still reading it when you post new sections. Since no one has commented on it lately, I don't want you to think we've stopped reading what you are so kindly taking the time to post! Thanks!
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Glenn
Not sure how much is left of the article, but I wanted to let you know we (or at least I) are still reading it when you post new sections. Since no one has commented on it lately, I don't want you to think we've stopped reading what you are so kindly taking the time to post! Thanks!
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Glenn
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
Hi Glenn,
I never doubted interest,there is a bit more plus found some more Tiger info,if Bill gives okay I will post .
Sorry its dragged on but I will finish it this weekend ,that's a promise.
max ainley
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max ainley
I never doubted interest,there is a bit more plus found some more Tiger info,if Bill gives okay I will post .
Sorry its dragged on but I will finish it this weekend ,that's a promise.
max ainley
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max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
Hi Max,
I'm not complaining at all! Sorry if I came across that way!
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Glenn
I'm not complaining at all! Sorry if I came across that way!
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Glenn
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
shu shi wa's nephew???
cont,
Observations
Hailing from a background of goju-ryu karate-do where the accent is upon spirit through the development of one's 'KIAI' I found it very strange to be learning a system were this did not feature .Apart from a single grunt [or was it a cough?] towards the end of 'San San Hu'[the only hint of a'kiai'I was to hear throughout my entire month] Tiger Boxing exists pretty much as a silent art.
When I questioned Master Chang upon this he informed me that in Wu Shu circles the kiai is considered an unnecessary expenditure of energy ,owing to the fact Wu Shu places such emphasis upon hand-conditioning, nerve-centres,and pressure points .
As far as the psychological factors were concerned these did not even appear to be even considered by the Wu Su stylist which ,again was beyond my comprehension.
As a staunch believer in kiai from every conceivable angle and as one who is 200% insistent upon kiai whenever I train or teach ,I found this apparently over-relaxed attitude [which it probably isn't but appeared to me as such] somewhat awkward to accept .
Having always believed that the cat[the furry one with four legs ,that is ]as played an important role in the development of goju-ryu [in terms of breathing , posture,and techniques,and exercises] it did not suprise me to find a number of factors common to both these fighting systems.
And whilst the obvious lack of spirit[kiai] together with the restricted spectrum of techniques were the only significant differances between these two arts the degree of similarity I found rather astounding, especially when I considered that much of goju-ryu's development could be attributed to the crane style of southern Chinese Boxing. Quite an interesting combination -cat and bird!
max ainley
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max ainley
Observations
Hailing from a background of goju-ryu karate-do where the accent is upon spirit through the development of one's 'KIAI' I found it very strange to be learning a system were this did not feature .Apart from a single grunt [or was it a cough?] towards the end of 'San San Hu'[the only hint of a'kiai'I was to hear throughout my entire month] Tiger Boxing exists pretty much as a silent art.
When I questioned Master Chang upon this he informed me that in Wu Shu circles the kiai is considered an unnecessary expenditure of energy ,owing to the fact Wu Shu places such emphasis upon hand-conditioning, nerve-centres,and pressure points .
As far as the psychological factors were concerned these did not even appear to be even considered by the Wu Su stylist which ,again was beyond my comprehension.
As a staunch believer in kiai from every conceivable angle and as one who is 200% insistent upon kiai whenever I train or teach ,I found this apparently over-relaxed attitude [which it probably isn't but appeared to me as such] somewhat awkward to accept .
Having always believed that the cat[the furry one with four legs ,that is ]as played an important role in the development of goju-ryu [in terms of breathing , posture,and techniques,and exercises] it did not suprise me to find a number of factors common to both these fighting systems.
And whilst the obvious lack of spirit[kiai] together with the restricted spectrum of techniques were the only significant differances between these two arts the degree of similarity I found rather astounding, especially when I considered that much of goju-ryu's development could be attributed to the crane style of southern Chinese Boxing. Quite an interesting combination -cat and bird!
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
shu shi wa's nephew???
this is a great article thanks for taking
the time to post it
the time to post it
