The turn after the crane posture,makes a nice throw.
http://banffuechiryu.tripod.com/a_turn_in_seisan.wmv
Reverse Engineering Seisan
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Dana Sheets
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Series 7 & 8
Laird,
Here I am getting ready to tell you how much I like your 3 bushiken video and now you're popped up a whole bunch of them. Very WONDERFUL! I look forward to downloading your new ones. Please continue posting what you're doing and I'll keep chugging away on the series.
Series 7 = tetsui & bushiken
Series 7 is what I think of as the bar sequence. You're getting blind sided and you just get your hands up and start pummeling. The tetsui can go to the side of the jaw, can hammer straight down on the clavicle and can be used during the prep to catch uke's left hand before it hits you. We've already talked about some options for the bushiken. For those of you who've attended a seminar by Master James Thompson you'll remember how he likes to tell you to hit your own hand with your fist. Do it again only close your eyes - you'll never miss. So then he usually laughs a little and then places his one hand behind the back, neck, or head of uke and says - all I need to do is hit my own hand.
Series 8 = nukite
The reason I pulled this off on it's own is that for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. Why is this technique left all to it's lonesome? The easy option is staying to the outside of uke and using it to blast the kindey. Other than that....I've seen this movement used as an arm bar as well.
This is the second place in the kata I sometimes scratch my head and go...huh?
And cxt - thanks for reading and please feel welcome to post your own ideas. My brother does shorin ryu and you should see all the ways we do the same stuff differently!
Dana
Here I am getting ready to tell you how much I like your 3 bushiken video and now you're popped up a whole bunch of them. Very WONDERFUL! I look forward to downloading your new ones. Please continue posting what you're doing and I'll keep chugging away on the series.
Series 7 = tetsui & bushiken
Series 7 is what I think of as the bar sequence. You're getting blind sided and you just get your hands up and start pummeling. The tetsui can go to the side of the jaw, can hammer straight down on the clavicle and can be used during the prep to catch uke's left hand before it hits you. We've already talked about some options for the bushiken. For those of you who've attended a seminar by Master James Thompson you'll remember how he likes to tell you to hit your own hand with your fist. Do it again only close your eyes - you'll never miss. So then he usually laughs a little and then places his one hand behind the back, neck, or head of uke and says - all I need to do is hit my own hand.
Series 8 = nukite
The reason I pulled this off on it's own is that for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. Why is this technique left all to it's lonesome? The easy option is staying to the outside of uke and using it to blast the kindey. Other than that....I've seen this movement used as an arm bar as well.
This is the second place in the kata I sometimes scratch my head and go...huh?
And cxt - thanks for reading and please feel welcome to post your own ideas. My brother does shorin ryu and you should see all the ways we do the same stuff differently!
Dana
Did you show compassion today?
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wolfeyes23
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- Location: Buffalo, NY
Greetings – A few generic thoughts on The jump salute , one legged posture, then perhaps a application, We were (I think) speaking of principle as well as application,
IMO, the difference is, a application is very specific but rather rigid, and a principle very versatile and adaptable, but not very specific.
Again this fits with the Taoist thought systems, The Void is undifferentiated, it is not empty it is everything, we then have its manifestations as discussed previously adding up to 13, There is a little more two it, but, basically these basic building blocks can be combined into the 10,000 things, This is not a literal count but rather kind of a way of saying a endless number.
IMO, a kata is most versatile when it it is closest to the void, or the most undifferentiated and least specific, it demonstrates and embodies a principle,
IMO these principles can be found in the Sun Tzu’s art of war and in the Bubishi and these documents may give us a clue to the use of these movement in kata.
My sensei often speaks of Indefensible positions, Sun Tzu calls fatal ground (in some translations), and there are escaping movement in some kata, including kobudo kata, this is the idea of not standing in the middle of
a circle of attackers, this is fatal ground, it can not be defended, you will be defeated, to survive you must move to ground you can defend, move to the outside or to a doorway etc, where your enemy must approach
one at a time (more or less) from one direction, this is good ground.
This is also found in the Bubishi, I’ll quote Patrick McCarthy sensei’s as he has been mentioned,
pg 66, Balance
“Perfect balance is a reflection of what is within. it is also a prerequisite for combative proficiency. It is by mastering balance that one is able to easily take advantage of, or deliberately create, a weakness in an opponents posture. Such weaknesses must be attacked without hesitation.
If someone attempts to seize you by surprise, you might be better off to escape, reestablish your Balance, and then engage the opponent.
However, the Circumstances dictate the means. It is good to employ evasive tactics when forcefully attacked. It is a good time to launch a counteroffensive upon perceiving that the opponent’s energy is exhausted.”
Now look at the posture in question in seisan, before you suddenly escape you are in a low rooted position, but you may be being attacked from a weak angle and/or surprised, you escape (jump back) ,re-establish your balance causing you opponent to spend his energy ( miss you), and perhaps reveal a weakness, you attack this weakness without hesitation.
What was the weakness ? , I don’t know, But, it is the perception of this weakness that will determine the technique, so, all we can do in conjecture, and
assign a weakness to the attacker, so we can practice against it.
The next movement in the kata may be a good clue as to what the weakness is, per the kata, what would the opponent need to be doing for the next
movement in the kata to be proficient ?
Now these ideas and concepts seem like good advise
to me if we are talking self defense, perhaps it is
not just the kata movement that is important but
some thoughts behind it.
Hope this makes sense.
Just thinking
Romney^..^
IMO, the difference is, a application is very specific but rather rigid, and a principle very versatile and adaptable, but not very specific.
Again this fits with the Taoist thought systems, The Void is undifferentiated, it is not empty it is everything, we then have its manifestations as discussed previously adding up to 13, There is a little more two it, but, basically these basic building blocks can be combined into the 10,000 things, This is not a literal count but rather kind of a way of saying a endless number.
IMO, a kata is most versatile when it it is closest to the void, or the most undifferentiated and least specific, it demonstrates and embodies a principle,
IMO these principles can be found in the Sun Tzu’s art of war and in the Bubishi and these documents may give us a clue to the use of these movement in kata.
My sensei often speaks of Indefensible positions, Sun Tzu calls fatal ground (in some translations), and there are escaping movement in some kata, including kobudo kata, this is the idea of not standing in the middle of
a circle of attackers, this is fatal ground, it can not be defended, you will be defeated, to survive you must move to ground you can defend, move to the outside or to a doorway etc, where your enemy must approach
one at a time (more or less) from one direction, this is good ground.
This is also found in the Bubishi, I’ll quote Patrick McCarthy sensei’s as he has been mentioned,
pg 66, Balance
“Perfect balance is a reflection of what is within. it is also a prerequisite for combative proficiency. It is by mastering balance that one is able to easily take advantage of, or deliberately create, a weakness in an opponents posture. Such weaknesses must be attacked without hesitation.
If someone attempts to seize you by surprise, you might be better off to escape, reestablish your Balance, and then engage the opponent.
However, the Circumstances dictate the means. It is good to employ evasive tactics when forcefully attacked. It is a good time to launch a counteroffensive upon perceiving that the opponent’s energy is exhausted.”
Now look at the posture in question in seisan, before you suddenly escape you are in a low rooted position, but you may be being attacked from a weak angle and/or surprised, you escape (jump back) ,re-establish your balance causing you opponent to spend his energy ( miss you), and perhaps reveal a weakness, you attack this weakness without hesitation.
What was the weakness ? , I don’t know, But, it is the perception of this weakness that will determine the technique, so, all we can do in conjecture, and
assign a weakness to the attacker, so we can practice against it.
The next movement in the kata may be a good clue as to what the weakness is, per the kata, what would the opponent need to be doing for the next
movement in the kata to be proficient ?
Now these ideas and concepts seem like good advise
to me if we are talking self defense, perhaps it is
not just the kata movement that is important but
some thoughts behind it.
Hope this makes sense.
Just thinking
Romney^..^
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wolfeyes23
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Greetings- I was watching the video on the jumpback in seisan,(thank you these are a wonderful aid to the discussion) I like this technique because it uses the opponents force against him, Once he has been kneed in in the face, he will want his head to move away, Using the same raised foot, it may be a good time to kick him in the inside of the thigh, to draw him forward again
a bit, actual my favorite kick in this
type of situation is Governing vessel (GV 1) it is located
between the tip of the coccyx and the anus, straight up
between the legs, this is not a groin kick, although you
may hit the groin with part of the shin, the toe goes behind
the groin and penetrates straight up, male or female this is
a mean kick, (this point is one of the 36 vital points,
in Patrick McCarthy sensei's Bubishi it is on page 115,
and 127)
As the foot comes down you can stomp, this
can be used to rake the inside of the leg and force the knee
sideways, or stomp down on his foot, either way will help
break his balance, with his lower body stuck for a moment
the upper body moves forward and strikes upward, since he can not step away fast enough for his lower body to catch up with his upper body he will be knocked to the ground, after the elbow.
Pg 162 of the Bubishi
"If you trap your adversary's foot with your own foot, strike with your hands right away, Then run your hands from top to bottom pulling his legs out from under him"
Well obviously the second part is not done in the kata, but it could be, and if you do rake his leg, cause the knee to
move sideways, and trap his foot on the floor for a moment
while you attack with your hands, (elbow), it will accomplish
the same thing, opponent falls.
You could also trip him with your right leg, by hooking behind his heel when you strike him, Again I look at kata and comments in the Bubishi in more or less the same light, the important thing is not that I follow what is written specifically, it is that I achieve or cause the same results, it’s a strategy, more than a technique.
In general, I want to distract my opponent from his plan,
the knee in the face will do this nicely, this allows me
to gain the initiative, and control of the engagement,
I then break his strength, by affecting his balance,
and ability to move, I trap him, and then I finish
him before he can escape by overrunning him.
This is again classic military principle, the opponent
attacks, you retreat and draw him into a weak position,
and hit him hard, you trap him or cut off his retreat and
you destroy him.
It is a yin yang movement, receiving softly with a little
opposite movement (the knee), then reverse the movement
and return with force.
Sun Tzu in the Art of War tell's us
"The rush of torrential waters tossing boulders illustrates force.
The strike of a bird of prey breaking the body of its target illustrates timing.
Therefore, the force of those skilled in warfare is overwhelming, and their timing precise.
Their force is like a drawn crossbow and their timing is like the release of the trigger."
I see this in this movement in seisan, the timing is after you have moved back and your opponent spends his force (you have drawn the crossbow),
you move forward into the elbow strike your force is like the release of the trigger. The opponent should be destroyed.
sorry so long, I stop rambling for a while now.
Romney^..^
Is anyone else seeing these things or am I just nuts ?
a bit, actual my favorite kick in this
type of situation is Governing vessel (GV 1) it is located
between the tip of the coccyx and the anus, straight up
between the legs, this is not a groin kick, although you
may hit the groin with part of the shin, the toe goes behind
the groin and penetrates straight up, male or female this is
a mean kick, (this point is one of the 36 vital points,
in Patrick McCarthy sensei's Bubishi it is on page 115,
and 127)
As the foot comes down you can stomp, this
can be used to rake the inside of the leg and force the knee
sideways, or stomp down on his foot, either way will help
break his balance, with his lower body stuck for a moment
the upper body moves forward and strikes upward, since he can not step away fast enough for his lower body to catch up with his upper body he will be knocked to the ground, after the elbow.
Pg 162 of the Bubishi
"If you trap your adversary's foot with your own foot, strike with your hands right away, Then run your hands from top to bottom pulling his legs out from under him"
Well obviously the second part is not done in the kata, but it could be, and if you do rake his leg, cause the knee to
move sideways, and trap his foot on the floor for a moment
while you attack with your hands, (elbow), it will accomplish
the same thing, opponent falls.
You could also trip him with your right leg, by hooking behind his heel when you strike him, Again I look at kata and comments in the Bubishi in more or less the same light, the important thing is not that I follow what is written specifically, it is that I achieve or cause the same results, it’s a strategy, more than a technique.
In general, I want to distract my opponent from his plan,
the knee in the face will do this nicely, this allows me
to gain the initiative, and control of the engagement,
I then break his strength, by affecting his balance,
and ability to move, I trap him, and then I finish
him before he can escape by overrunning him.
This is again classic military principle, the opponent
attacks, you retreat and draw him into a weak position,
and hit him hard, you trap him or cut off his retreat and
you destroy him.
It is a yin yang movement, receiving softly with a little
opposite movement (the knee), then reverse the movement
and return with force.
Sun Tzu in the Art of War tell's us
"The rush of torrential waters tossing boulders illustrates force.
The strike of a bird of prey breaking the body of its target illustrates timing.
Therefore, the force of those skilled in warfare is overwhelming, and their timing precise.
Their force is like a drawn crossbow and their timing is like the release of the trigger."
I see this in this movement in seisan, the timing is after you have moved back and your opponent spends his force (you have drawn the crossbow),
you move forward into the elbow strike your force is like the release of the trigger. The opponent should be destroyed.
sorry so long, I stop rambling for a while now.
Romney^..^
Is anyone else seeing these things or am I just nuts ?
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Stryke
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wolfeyes23
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Greetings – about series 8 nukite, If I understand where you are in the kata , after the tetsui, I believe that the Nukite is related to the Tetsui, position.
(why I think this could be a log discussion, but, lets skip this and go to a useful technique).
If you have uke’s head between Bushiken and tetsui ,
the next movement maybe a version of “beautiful women wearing makeup”
this is pictured on page 175 of Patrick McCarthy translation of the Bubishi, The hand that performed Tetsui is used to circle around the face and head, this will begin to twist the head, (this looks like a circular block) the Nukite
strikes the chin, with a shearing motion, causing the head to twist violently, possibly straining or damaging the neck, but , also most likely KO’ing Uke.
This is called beautiful women wearing makeup, because, the hand circles the face, which is the common motion depicting or describing beauty.
Romney^..^
(why I think this could be a log discussion, but, lets skip this and go to a useful technique).
If you have uke’s head between Bushiken and tetsui ,
the next movement maybe a version of “beautiful women wearing makeup”
this is pictured on page 175 of Patrick McCarthy translation of the Bubishi, The hand that performed Tetsui is used to circle around the face and head, this will begin to twist the head, (this looks like a circular block) the Nukite
strikes the chin, with a shearing motion, causing the head to twist violently, possibly straining or damaging the neck, but , also most likely KO’ing Uke.
This is called beautiful women wearing makeup, because, the hand circles the face, which is the common motion depicting or describing beauty.
Romney^..^
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Dana Sheets
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
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Series 9 = shomen geri & knee strike & 3 shokens
Many good comments so far. In particular I'm enjoying the "principles vs techniques" parts of the discussion. I'm going to keep plugging along.
Series 9 = shomen geri & knee strike & 3 shokens
This series is shown together in Gushi's kumite (I think). Kick the hip crease on an incoming uke (they can be punching or shoving or whatever) - this breaks them at the waist and brings the head forward. Smash their face into your up-lifiting knee and pummel them with shokens until they don't move any more.
For those of you unfamiliar with the kata - this knee strike differs from the previous one because of the hand position. In the earlier knee strike the hands were kept shoulder high in a flat-hand fighting position. For this knee strike the forward foot hand (the left in the kata) artfully sweeps in front of you and then meets your right knee as it strikes upward.
Of note from Okinawa - all teachers I trained with did not want to see either an elongated sanchin stance or any forward bending of the upper body. After the knee strike you stay in an upright sanchin. You did need to throw the shokens out in front of your body - the same distance in front that you reached with your knee strike (since this is where you last impacted uke's head)[/u]
Series 9 = shomen geri & knee strike & 3 shokens
This series is shown together in Gushi's kumite (I think). Kick the hip crease on an incoming uke (they can be punching or shoving or whatever) - this breaks them at the waist and brings the head forward. Smash their face into your up-lifiting knee and pummel them with shokens until they don't move any more.
For those of you unfamiliar with the kata - this knee strike differs from the previous one because of the hand position. In the earlier knee strike the hands were kept shoulder high in a flat-hand fighting position. For this knee strike the forward foot hand (the left in the kata) artfully sweeps in front of you and then meets your right knee as it strikes upward.
Of note from Okinawa - all teachers I trained with did not want to see either an elongated sanchin stance or any forward bending of the upper body. After the knee strike you stay in an upright sanchin. You did need to throw the shokens out in front of your body - the same distance in front that you reached with your knee strike (since this is where you last impacted uke's head)[/u]
Did you show compassion today?
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benzocaine
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- Location: St. Thomas
Interesting.Of note from Okinawa - all teachers I trained with did not want to see either an elongated sanchin stance or any forward bending of the upper body. After the knee strike you stay in an upright sanchin. You did need to throw the shokens out in front of your body - the same distance in front that you reached with your knee strike (since this is where you last impacted uke's head)
What about bending the knees into a lower stance Dana? The people I study with put empasis on this.
I have a general question for everyone here: When you do the three shoken strikes where are you looking? I've heard different thoughts on where that should be. One says looking forward so you can be looking at other oponents. The other says look down at the person you are striking. It probably doesn't matter, but it's something that I've wondered off and on for a while.
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benzocaine
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Interesting.Of note from Okinawa - all teachers I trained with did not want to see either an elongated sanchin stance or any forward bending of the upper body. After the knee strike you stay in an upright sanchin. You did need to throw the shokens out in front of your body - the same distance in front that you reached with your knee strike (since this is where you last impacted uke's head)
What about bending the knees into a lower stance Dana? The people I study with put empasis on this.
I have a general question for everyone here: When you do the three shoken strikes where are you looking? I've heard different thoughts on where that should be. One says looking forward so you can be looking at other oponents. The other says look down at the person you are striking. It probably doesn't matter, but it's something that I've wondered off and on for a while.
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wolfeyes23
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Greetings – Dana san, when using this stomping style of kick I like to use a slight downward angle, this causes uke’s foot to become stuck on the ground, and may result in damage to the hip joint, the difference is that a straight out kick will allow the body to move away, from the force, it
will break his balance and cause him to lean a bit, but, it will not stop him from moving or stepping back, a downward angle , with the same kick will trap him in place.
(try it with a uke, push his hip straight back, then push down at a angle)
Regarding leaning, I was taught to never lean over a opponent, you will be pulled to the ground,
I believe it was Chotoku Kyan sensei who said “Fight with the back straight” , if you want to strike someone on the ground, lower the stance, or kneel, either way the back stays straight as possible.
some points from the Bubishi regarding this movement
pg 162, of the Patrick McCarthy senesi translation
15. when dodging a stomping kick, sidestep and counter with the same technique.
^..^ could it be that for this series Uke kicked first ?
16. Never execute a technique when off balance , as a skillful fighter will most certainly take advantage of the situation.
^,,^ fight with the back straight
17 A superior strategist uses multilevel attacks to his advantage, rather than single kicks or punches.
^..^ this is certainly demonstrated in this section of the kata.
20 Maintain your balance while and after throwing the adversary as it is critically important to follow up with the finishing Blow.
^..^ If you did drop your opponent then I do think you would need to drop your stance low or even
kneel to finish your opponent, but the 3 shokens seem to fit this idea.
For the where to look question asked by Ben san
pg 160 7. see what is unseeable
This is one translataion of the Kempo Gokui , or 8 precepts, I believe that this is the same
set of precepts Chojun Miyagi used to name Goju-ryu.
I prefer eyes necessary see four sides
ears should examine eight directions
put this together with
person heart same heaven earth , and you have 1 (person/center) aware of themselves
and also aware of their surroundings seeing 4 directions and listening in eight. 1+4+8 (13)
I don’t think it matters where you look, the point is not to get tunnel vision, you
must constantly be aware.
PG 65 advice for engagement
1. The mind must be calm and alert
2. look for that which is not easily seen
3. Use Your peripheral vision
4. Remain calm when facing your opponent
5. Have confident body language and facial
expression
6. use a posture that will support mobility
This all sounds like good advice to anyone performing kata, or meeting a adversary,and should be carried on through the kata or the engagement.
So regardless of where you look , know your surroundings.
My own bit of wisdom , thrown in for good measure,
If you are unaware your opponent will hit you when you are not looking Most people who seem determined to fight you (when you are looking) are either not alone , are armed, or are mentally unstable, (not mutually exclusive) regardless
be aware, take good ground, don’t hesitate to act , finish them first chance you get, and don’t loose track of anyone, they are all coming, its only a matter of when.
Tunnel vision will be the death of you.
Romney ^..^
will break his balance and cause him to lean a bit, but, it will not stop him from moving or stepping back, a downward angle , with the same kick will trap him in place.
(try it with a uke, push his hip straight back, then push down at a angle)
Regarding leaning, I was taught to never lean over a opponent, you will be pulled to the ground,
I believe it was Chotoku Kyan sensei who said “Fight with the back straight” , if you want to strike someone on the ground, lower the stance, or kneel, either way the back stays straight as possible.
some points from the Bubishi regarding this movement
pg 162, of the Patrick McCarthy senesi translation
15. when dodging a stomping kick, sidestep and counter with the same technique.
^..^ could it be that for this series Uke kicked first ?
16. Never execute a technique when off balance , as a skillful fighter will most certainly take advantage of the situation.
^,,^ fight with the back straight
17 A superior strategist uses multilevel attacks to his advantage, rather than single kicks or punches.
^..^ this is certainly demonstrated in this section of the kata.
20 Maintain your balance while and after throwing the adversary as it is critically important to follow up with the finishing Blow.
^..^ If you did drop your opponent then I do think you would need to drop your stance low or even
kneel to finish your opponent, but the 3 shokens seem to fit this idea.
For the where to look question asked by Ben san
pg 160 7. see what is unseeable
This is one translataion of the Kempo Gokui , or 8 precepts, I believe that this is the same
set of precepts Chojun Miyagi used to name Goju-ryu.
I prefer eyes necessary see four sides
ears should examine eight directions
put this together with
person heart same heaven earth , and you have 1 (person/center) aware of themselves
and also aware of their surroundings seeing 4 directions and listening in eight. 1+4+8 (13)
I don’t think it matters where you look, the point is not to get tunnel vision, you
must constantly be aware.
PG 65 advice for engagement
1. The mind must be calm and alert
2. look for that which is not easily seen
3. Use Your peripheral vision
4. Remain calm when facing your opponent
5. Have confident body language and facial
expression
6. use a posture that will support mobility
This all sounds like good advice to anyone performing kata, or meeting a adversary,and should be carried on through the kata or the engagement.
So regardless of where you look , know your surroundings.
My own bit of wisdom , thrown in for good measure,
If you are unaware your opponent will hit you when you are not looking Most people who seem determined to fight you (when you are looking) are either not alone , are armed, or are mentally unstable, (not mutually exclusive) regardless
be aware, take good ground, don’t hesitate to act , finish them first chance you get, and don’t loose track of anyone, they are all coming, its only a matter of when.
Tunnel vision will be the death of you.
Romney ^..^
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wolfeyes23
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Buffalo, NY
Greetings – Since it has been quiet, I thought I might
interject a few thoughts and perhaps stir the pot.
(warning , about to ramble a bit, but there is a point to it).
What makes a technique Good, or devastating ?
We most often focus on power technique to vital areas, there are of course many ways of developing
focus and power in a movement, and we tend to start looking at kata as a exercise in doing this,
I’m not saying that this is not Good or Correct, actually I would say it is necessary,
But
That is not all, what makes a technique Devastating is Timing, good timing is usually not random or by chance,
it is the results of strategy, perception, and posture.
Timing is practiced in kata, which has both fast and slow parts interspersed.
When we look at Bunkai to kata movement we start with statements like , Opponent steps RFF and strikes to the head with the left hand, My question here is WHY, did this person just suddenly spring from the bushes and swing at me ? What is the physiology behind this , what is the intent ? This may be true (he did spring from the bushes ) but, I don’t think this is true for kata movements that advance, advancing movements are attacking movements that are dictated by a response to a perceived opportunity for ending the altercation, this
opportunity was more often than not a result of strategy, (posture is related to strategy)
and perception, it is reading a situation and responding without thought to the target.
The question is . Is this part of the dynamic of conflict lost in kata, OR is it PRESERVED in kata ?
If it is preserved in kata movement, then do we lose something when it is not even mentioned in
Bunkai, again, conflict does not happen in a vacuum, awareness is critical to any self defense sequence,
understanding the situation, and creating a ground that favors you is the art of strategy,
making the most of this ground and opportunity are what requires strong technique and understanding
of interaction and dynamic. How will my opponent respond, I must overrun him or cut him off ,
if advancing.
Not long ago I had a old friend come to the dojo and work knife defense with me, he proceeded to cut me (figurative) to ribbons , why, because he knew what the most likely response to his movements was, he was one step beyond this, and my response was really his opening,
he made the most of it and would have killed me multiple times before my body hit the ground.
his movement was all based on my response,
I actually would have faired better if I had done little or
nothing, until he showed his real technique.
What does this mean, only this
(my knife defense needs work
) and we do our
study of kata a disservice when as UKE
we freeze it in time and do not respond to the kata techinqiue, or kata posture etc, kata is dynamic movement based on strategy, and posture, when we freeze
we stop the motivation for the course the technique takes.
When I mentioned The + pattern of seisan in relation to seisan and Taoist thought,
I mentioned advancing, Withdrawing, looking-left, Gazing-Right, and fixed rooting, These have many associated attributes, not the least of which is timing and strategy,
these same attributes are also very clearly presented in the Art of War and in the
8 precepts. There are many translations of these 8 precepts , and the Art of War,as there are many version of kata, but underlying it all the same concepts keep arising.
Let us take a look at one of these concepts, and see if we find this in Seisan kata,
Tai Chi According to the I_ching – Stuart Alve Olson pg. 93 , when speaking of
advancing has this to say:
“Verse of Advancing
When there is a opportunity for advancing ,
do so without hesitation.
When encountering no obstacles, keep advancing. Failing to Advance at the proper moment, the opportunity will be lost. If you seize the opportunities for advancing, you can always be victorious.”
I was taught this as one of the 8 precepts :
Two translations of the same concept
are
“strike when the opportunity presents its self”
and
“Hands meet void suddenly enter”
I particularly like this one because the void can be the space between opponents , the opening of the target
or it can be a reference to the state of mind.
In the Bubishi the pg 159-160 lists these precepts, I believe that this has the same
meaning
“Response must result without conscious thought”.
Hmmmmm the void, Void-hand .
pg 160 also states,
“Distancing and posture dictates the outcome of the meeting”
Look at this reference to that Art of war,
http://www.sonshi.com/sun5.html
consider these words:
“Disorder coming from order is a matter of organization,
fear coming from courage is a matter of force,
weakness coming from strength is a matter of formation.
Therefore, those skilled in moving the enemy use formation that which the enemy must respond.
They offer bait that which the enemy must take, manipulating the enemy to move while they wait in ambush.
Those skilled in warfare seek victory through force and do not require too much from individuals.
Therefore, they are able to select the right men and exploit force.
One who exploits force commands men into battle like rolling logs and boulders.
Logs and boulders are still when on flat ground, but roll when on steep ground.
Square shapes are still, but round shapes roll.
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain.
This is force.”
When we advance we should be overwhelming :
Sun Tzu tells us
Everyone knows the formation by which you achieved victory, yet no one knows the formations by which you were able to create victory.
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless. The army's formation is like water.
The water's formation avoids the high and rushes to the low. So an army's formation avoids the strong and rushes to the weak. Water's formation adapts to the ground when flowing. So then an army's formation adapts to the enemy to achieve victory.
Therefore, an army does not have constant force, or have constant formation. Those who are able to adapt and change in accord with the enemy and
achieve victory are called divine.
Therefore, of the five elements, none a constant victor, of the four seasons, none has constant position;”
like the reference to the five elements , of course advancing withdrawing,looking left , gazing right and fix rooting
are a manifestation of these elements.
The reason behind writing this is to ask, are these considerations not critical to understanding kata movement,
bunkai , and technique, as it relates to the real world,
technique and effectiveness, And if it is then consider this ,
Could these underlying concepts be the basis for Grouping the techniques in seisan into sets,
Not the number of movements but the number of opportunities, which are based on concepts,
like the above, where strategy and timing play as important a role as technique, and where we exercise , (fighting) spirit (void) mind and (technique) body.
This is what is really devistating about karate,
not just the strikes, but also the timing, and intent.
Long again, I just can’t be short winded I guess.
Hope this is understandable and on topic.
Romney^..^
interject a few thoughts and perhaps stir the pot.
(warning , about to ramble a bit, but there is a point to it).
What makes a technique Good, or devastating ?
We most often focus on power technique to vital areas, there are of course many ways of developing
focus and power in a movement, and we tend to start looking at kata as a exercise in doing this,
I’m not saying that this is not Good or Correct, actually I would say it is necessary,
But
That is not all, what makes a technique Devastating is Timing, good timing is usually not random or by chance,
it is the results of strategy, perception, and posture.
Timing is practiced in kata, which has both fast and slow parts interspersed.
When we look at Bunkai to kata movement we start with statements like , Opponent steps RFF and strikes to the head with the left hand, My question here is WHY, did this person just suddenly spring from the bushes and swing at me ? What is the physiology behind this , what is the intent ? This may be true (he did spring from the bushes ) but, I don’t think this is true for kata movements that advance, advancing movements are attacking movements that are dictated by a response to a perceived opportunity for ending the altercation, this
opportunity was more often than not a result of strategy, (posture is related to strategy)
and perception, it is reading a situation and responding without thought to the target.
The question is . Is this part of the dynamic of conflict lost in kata, OR is it PRESERVED in kata ?
If it is preserved in kata movement, then do we lose something when it is not even mentioned in
Bunkai, again, conflict does not happen in a vacuum, awareness is critical to any self defense sequence,
understanding the situation, and creating a ground that favors you is the art of strategy,
making the most of this ground and opportunity are what requires strong technique and understanding
of interaction and dynamic. How will my opponent respond, I must overrun him or cut him off ,
if advancing.
Not long ago I had a old friend come to the dojo and work knife defense with me, he proceeded to cut me (figurative) to ribbons , why, because he knew what the most likely response to his movements was, he was one step beyond this, and my response was really his opening,
he made the most of it and would have killed me multiple times before my body hit the ground.
his movement was all based on my response,
I actually would have faired better if I had done little or
nothing, until he showed his real technique.
What does this mean, only this
(my knife defense needs work
) and we do ourstudy of kata a disservice when as UKE
we freeze it in time and do not respond to the kata techinqiue, or kata posture etc, kata is dynamic movement based on strategy, and posture, when we freeze
we stop the motivation for the course the technique takes.
When I mentioned The + pattern of seisan in relation to seisan and Taoist thought,
I mentioned advancing, Withdrawing, looking-left, Gazing-Right, and fixed rooting, These have many associated attributes, not the least of which is timing and strategy,
these same attributes are also very clearly presented in the Art of War and in the
8 precepts. There are many translations of these 8 precepts , and the Art of War,as there are many version of kata, but underlying it all the same concepts keep arising.
Let us take a look at one of these concepts, and see if we find this in Seisan kata,
Tai Chi According to the I_ching – Stuart Alve Olson pg. 93 , when speaking of
advancing has this to say:
“Verse of Advancing
When there is a opportunity for advancing ,
do so without hesitation.
When encountering no obstacles, keep advancing. Failing to Advance at the proper moment, the opportunity will be lost. If you seize the opportunities for advancing, you can always be victorious.”
I was taught this as one of the 8 precepts :
Two translations of the same concept
are
“strike when the opportunity presents its self”
and
“Hands meet void suddenly enter”
I particularly like this one because the void can be the space between opponents , the opening of the target
or it can be a reference to the state of mind.
In the Bubishi the pg 159-160 lists these precepts, I believe that this has the same
meaning
“Response must result without conscious thought”.
Hmmmmm the void, Void-hand .
pg 160 also states,
“Distancing and posture dictates the outcome of the meeting”
Look at this reference to that Art of war,
http://www.sonshi.com/sun5.html
consider these words:
“Disorder coming from order is a matter of organization,
fear coming from courage is a matter of force,
weakness coming from strength is a matter of formation.
Therefore, those skilled in moving the enemy use formation that which the enemy must respond.
They offer bait that which the enemy must take, manipulating the enemy to move while they wait in ambush.
Those skilled in warfare seek victory through force and do not require too much from individuals.
Therefore, they are able to select the right men and exploit force.
One who exploits force commands men into battle like rolling logs and boulders.
Logs and boulders are still when on flat ground, but roll when on steep ground.
Square shapes are still, but round shapes roll.
Therefore, those skilled in warfare use force where the troops in battle are like boulders rolling down a steep mountain.
This is force.”
When we advance we should be overwhelming :
Sun Tzu tells us
Everyone knows the formation by which you achieved victory, yet no one knows the formations by which you were able to create victory.
Therefore, your strategy for victories in battle is not repetitious, and your formations in response to the enemy are endless. The army's formation is like water.
The water's formation avoids the high and rushes to the low. So an army's formation avoids the strong and rushes to the weak. Water's formation adapts to the ground when flowing. So then an army's formation adapts to the enemy to achieve victory.
Therefore, an army does not have constant force, or have constant formation. Those who are able to adapt and change in accord with the enemy and
achieve victory are called divine.
Therefore, of the five elements, none a constant victor, of the four seasons, none has constant position;”
like the reference to the five elements , of course advancing withdrawing,looking left , gazing right and fix rooting
are a manifestation of these elements.
The reason behind writing this is to ask, are these considerations not critical to understanding kata movement,
bunkai , and technique, as it relates to the real world,
technique and effectiveness, And if it is then consider this ,
Could these underlying concepts be the basis for Grouping the techniques in seisan into sets,
Not the number of movements but the number of opportunities, which are based on concepts,
like the above, where strategy and timing play as important a role as technique, and where we exercise , (fighting) spirit (void) mind and (technique) body.
This is what is really devistating about karate,
not just the strikes, but also the timing, and intent.
Long again, I just can’t be short winded I guess.
Hope this is understandable and on topic.
Romney^..^
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Romney - it's going to take me days to response to what you've written on this thread.
Freezing moments in time with robotic attacks and robotic defenses is what could bring the downfall of traditional training. A frozen moment should be looked at as only a teaching tool and never an actual use. This is where I think we need new words for what most call bunkai.
The traditional bunkai I was taught in Uechi are more like a series of pre-arranged one step sparring moves. I think that often kata show you things to use if can maintain the same distance. However it is up to the martial artists to apply all he/she knows when the distance and circumstance changes.
So I guess I should have called my thread "reverse engineering seisan for ideal moments if Murphy's Law doesn't intervene". This is why people must always remember to compare practitioners instead of styles. A good system done poorly will not protect. A few good moves, done very well - are often devastating.
In Okinawa I was shown that you should look straight ahead until you guide the hand into the knee. During the following movement (when you retract your first shoken) You should come to a regular sanchin stance and drop your gaze to your hand our in front. The hand out in front (the one that was hit by your knee) should be out and away from the body. In the little crook made by your finger and thumb you find the target for your shokens. When you've finished your third shoken, raise your eyes and you settle into sanchin kamae.
Now in terms of dropping the stance. I really don't think you need to once you've actually stuck a person in between your hand and your knee. You'll find that the person ends up a good deal higher than you might think. The issue I have with the traditional Seisan bunkai is that you don't follow through with the knee strike - so the person's head stays too low. If you really crack someone with your knee they're going to come up a bit and you won't need to crouch down at all. You may need to sink as you're striking if they drive towards the grown - but I think it is a bad idea to think of bending forward on a regular basis. As Romney mentioned in his first reply.
Again - there is definitely more than one take on how to apply this series AND I think folks should pay attention to their body alignment as they transition from the knee strike to the shokens so they don't give away their center.
Freezing moments in time with robotic attacks and robotic defenses is what could bring the downfall of traditional training. A frozen moment should be looked at as only a teaching tool and never an actual use. This is where I think we need new words for what most call bunkai.
The traditional bunkai I was taught in Uechi are more like a series of pre-arranged one step sparring moves. I think that often kata show you things to use if can maintain the same distance. However it is up to the martial artists to apply all he/she knows when the distance and circumstance changes.
So I guess I should have called my thread "reverse engineering seisan for ideal moments if Murphy's Law doesn't intervene". This is why people must always remember to compare practitioners instead of styles. A good system done poorly will not protect. A few good moves, done very well - are often devastating.
I'll share with you what was shown to me in Okinawa. Personally, since I'm only 5' 3" I almost never need to bend my stance to hit someone trying to tackle me. Their head is almost always above my knee strike height.What about bending the knees into a lower stance Dana? The people I study with put empasis on this.
In Okinawa I was shown that you should look straight ahead until you guide the hand into the knee. During the following movement (when you retract your first shoken) You should come to a regular sanchin stance and drop your gaze to your hand our in front. The hand out in front (the one that was hit by your knee) should be out and away from the body. In the little crook made by your finger and thumb you find the target for your shokens. When you've finished your third shoken, raise your eyes and you settle into sanchin kamae.
Now in terms of dropping the stance. I really don't think you need to once you've actually stuck a person in between your hand and your knee. You'll find that the person ends up a good deal higher than you might think. The issue I have with the traditional Seisan bunkai is that you don't follow through with the knee strike - so the person's head stays too low. If you really crack someone with your knee they're going to come up a bit and you won't need to crouch down at all. You may need to sink as you're striking if they drive towards the grown - but I think it is a bad idea to think of bending forward on a regular basis. As Romney mentioned in his first reply.
Again - there is definitely more than one take on how to apply this series AND I think folks should pay attention to their body alignment as they transition from the knee strike to the shokens so they don't give away their center.
Did you show compassion today?
