Uechi and Fitness Standards

[Bill Glasheen]

Actually my point was completely missed.

With my comment, I am categorizing myself as the hacker who picked things up by school of hard knocks. I may be smarter than the average bear and have expertise in related fields, but I am neither formally trained nor certified in exercise physiology. This is what I meant when I said

Those who are educated in that arena (I picked my knowledge up here and there) know better.

Perhaps if I had stated the following...

Those who are educated in that arena know better. (I picked my knowledge up here and there)

...then I would not have been misunderstood.

Sorry for the confusion and inadvertently triggering an emotional response. And thanks to all for expressing my intent.

Fitness is a multidimensional proposition. I articulated many of those dimensions in an earlier post in this thread. It deserves careful consideration, and I'm happy to get all the help on the subject that I can get.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

This is part of an earlier post which illustrates what I'm thinking.

One thing is clear to me - we don't have a uniform definition of fitness. Consider that fitness includes the following elements.

1) Aerobic fitness. This is all about heart/lung/circulatory training, as well as aerobic energy production capacity. Pick your poison - running, swimming, treadmill, biking, aerobics, Norditrak, taebo, what-ever. Ideally you do a collection of activities, and change your routine a couple of times a year.

2) Anaerobic fitness. This includes maximizing energy production from phosphocreatine and glycolytic activity. Those on various sport teams may remember those "wind sprints" at the end of practice that made you want to puke...

3) Balanced strength (something impossible to achieve by doing pushups and situps in a karate dojo),

4) Flexibility. Not just passive, but active range of motion. This is where modern methods such as PNF and CRAC can come into play.

5) Weight management (ideal body composition). Forget the scale, and the BMI measures. We're talking about consideration of strength to weight ratio, body fat percent, and where that fat is on your body (visceral vs. subcutaneous fat). These issues affect your ability to live a healthy life (avoiding "Syndrome X") so you can train for the long run, avoid injuring yourself while training, and get beyond the fantasy of "my fight of doom will be over in seconds."

6) Neuromuscular fitness. This is training to maximize and use the dynamic stretch reflex. It's all about power development - a key and undeniable ingredient in any martial art.

7) External conditioning. Not only kotekitae, ashikitae, and karadakitae, but also ukemi. Many karateka with black belts around their waists can't take a hit and/or can't take falling down on anything other than a soft mat. If you think Uechi is only a striking art and that no bad guy(s) out there want to slam you into some high-speed dirt, well fine. Otherwise...

8: General coordination skills. Come on, teachers, you know what I'm talking about. Half our students can't even lead a class without getting confused (talking and doing at the same time), and many are slow learners. We all can use some improvement. Stay tuned... Kevin Guse (formerly on the Nebraska football team) of the Nebraska Uechi dojo is about to finish a video.

9) Neurohormonal fitness (ability to manage the survival stress response). This is Van's specialty. On occasion, he likes to engage in some "ice water therapy" for those who deny this is imporant in a fight.

10) Activity specific fitness. It never ceases to amaze me how many dojos can't shoken, sokusen, hiraken, or boshiken their way out of wet paper bags. That's the half of it. The other half is most don't know how to use these techniques. And many of those folks will rationalize why we should never work on those techniques. Bullpoop!

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Laird

No blood, no foul.

- Bill

[Guest]

cool!

Thanks for being understanding Bill.

[IJ]

What we've determined is that people don't want timed runs on the dan test. Fine; no one's been wedded to that concept. We've also determined that a good land speed isn't vita to a sparring match. But really, do we only value things in Uechi that lend themselves to sparring matches? Of course not, and its worth noting that kotekitae (for conditioning, which is assessed as much as fitness is during a sparring match) is still considered highly important and worth evluating separately. Plus, the ability to outrun an opponent is an extremely important self defense skill. I don't get it. We've also said that frial elderly people shouldn't be punished for fitness limitations when their Uechi is excellent, and it's already been repeated that any standards would be relative to the person.

What I would suggest is that people who aren't as fit as they could be (which can limit their ability to defend themselves, pursue their art, and represent their art), be asked to buff things up a bit before testing and that the fitness prescription vary by the individual's age, medical conditions, body type, and individual circumstances. Some people need nothing; I needed some weight lifting; others need weight loss or cardio. The work can be a prereq for testing rather than a component of testing (just as would a variety of individualized drills including the previously mentioned gun awareness).

Certainly, I would not ask instructors to become financial advisors. But that's of course because financial skills are irrelevant to karate, unlike the fitness we're talking about.

[2Green]

So, do you think Uechi teachers who teach "fitness" (as they concieve it to be) should be required to be Certified Fitness Trainers?

Or can they just teach "fitness" based upon their own strengths and beliefs?

NM

[benzocaine]

It seems funny that we are even debating this. I personally can't think of a single recently promoted shodan who wasn't in good shape.

[Bill Glasheen]

Ben

I think it's a mixture of fears over what people mean by fitness, whether or not we have body Nazis running the place, and whether or not someone is going to impose yet another requirement that may or may not make sense.

2Green brings up a good point. I think about what it took to open a karate dojo in the 1960s or 1970s vs. today. There are big changes already. But then you look around at other formal physical activities, and realize that many of them have their collective acts together better than we do.

It's no accident (I believe) that two of the most successful Uechi leaders in this country have business degrees. Well...what about the physical training side of things? I've always loved it when I had at least one MD and a lawyer in the class for various reasons. And I like it when my teachers are at least CPR certified. It sure would be nice to have some folks who have PE degrees that understand and can employ the latest theories and practices on training and fitness. And I also am in search of a woman with child education credentials to lead a kids class for me. As much as I love kids, I also know what I don't know. It's best to tap in to whatever expertise you can.

- Bill

[benzocaine]

I think having CPR cerified people in the dojo is a good idea. There is a basic cerification put out through the american heart association called "freinds and family". It's very easy to do. People are taught to releive a foreighn body from an airway (heimlich maneuver), how to use an automated external defibrilator (can be found at many malls, on planes, and other public places) to shock someone out of a life threatening rythm, and of course how to resuscitate someone.

I see that it's a mixture of fears over whether someone whether or not someone is going to impose a requirement that may or may not make sense. But like I've said I haven't ever seen a single blackbelt (recently promoted) who didn't appear in reasonable shape.

IMHO we have to accept that Uechi Ryu is an art. Art is a subjective thing. The Dan test is a mixture of subjective and objective. How can one measure Kime or Uechi Glare or spirit? We can't. We all have to trust that the board we test in front of has the integrety to pass only those who can do a strong kata without huffing and puffing and meet all the other requirements.

Maybee part of the pre test could have some fitness requirements?

List the requirements and the kyu will reach them. We want our Shodan rank and we work hard for it. Those that don't fall to the wayside, because their karate is weak.. and everyone knows it's weak. It's as clear as day who practices their kata and techniques. Go ahead and increase the requirements. Many serious practitioners only welcome the challange as they know it will only make them better.

[RACastanet]

Ben said: "I think having CPR cerified people in the dojo is a good idea."

The gym certified me in CPR and the AED. However, it appears I need an update. I'll put that on my list.

While up at Quantico today I asked the CO if I could get into the Combat Conditioning class and get certified as a Combat Conditioning Specialist by the USMC. The answer is yes and yes. So, when the schedules fit I shall do so.

See what you all started. Next time you visit I may be certified and qualified to treat you to a 'real' workout.

Rich

[miked]

Ian,

You state that "you don't get it".

I, therefore, refer you to my earlier questions posed below and please explain you thoughts on each of the specific compents of the test.

"Consider that sparring (semi-contact and free) relies on explosive movements and broken rhythm. Jogging, swimming or cycling for miles a day does not build the type of explosiveness that sets apart the best sparrers. To train appropriately, one needs to do specific activity exercises (i.e. sparring multiple matches over a 20 or 30 minute session). How many of us do that in our classes?

Bill, correct me if I am wrong but if I want to develop speed in my punches I have to practice quick and fast punching techniques with proper body mechanics. Right? Will running, jogging, swimming help me to achieve this? Will any of these cardio exercises help me achieve kime, rootedness in my stance of proper targeting? Will they aid in achieving proper kata form and function? Will my blocks be stronger and crisper because of all of this cardio traning?
For self-defense, will running, cycling or jogging really present a significant advantage in applying real-life self-defense techniques? Will I be able to withstand stronger hits from opponents because of the cardio work?



If cardio work does not help:

sparring explosiveness,
kata form,
punching,
kicking,
targeting,
kime,
rootedness,
blocking,
self-defense techniques,
kote-kitae,
ashi-kitae or
sanchin-kitae

then why set a cardio fitness standard?


Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles

[IJ]

I still see a lot of concerns over details that we needn't worry about:

1) None of this has to be limited to shodans (their recent fitness I can't comment on having been to no such tests in a great while)

2) the consensus is for individualized fitness recommendations or projects rather than "standards" and numbers

3) it's been repeatedly said that this isn't just about "cardio," but rather "fitness," which I've viewed as having three components: strength, endurance, and flexibility. I proposed an individualized exercise prescription which could include improving 0-3 of these.

4) It's been suggested that cardio adds nothing to karate, but I think I've already touched on that issue: cardio is very important to evasion which in a self defense situation is likely to be as or more important than striking skills. Plus, shodans (and higher ups, and lower ups) are representatives. Frankly, any art is going to come off better if the participants are fit rather than unfit. Should we bastardize Uechi so we all look great with our shirts off? No, but no one'e been suggesting that we do.

Also, shodans enter a teaching role (many help before, and in some dojos they may have a limited role after, but it's clearly a milestone). I know, having taken and taught beginners classes, that its a heck of a lot more difficult to do an entire workout with focus and vigor as a way of leading, while shouting out instructions, than it is to go through the routine in the back row. There's no take it easy time in front of the class when you get winded. And I really doubt that a 90 second kata performance is a sufficient test for the cardio fitness to command a class and give a worthy impression to onlookers. Is this a make or break for a shodan? Perhaps not. Is it relevant? Yes.


Here was my last proposal:

"What I would suggest is that people who aren't as fit as they could be (which can limit their ability to defend themselves, pursue their art, and represent their art), be asked to buff things up a bit before testing and that the fitness prescription vary by the individual's age, medical conditions, body type, and individual circumstances."

This poses no burden to the fit, no unfair limitation to the infirm, and allows for an individual instructor's judgement. If I recall, weightlifting was NOT something the old masters proposed as integral to their art. Yet I feel I'm a better athelete and martial artist for pursuing some. Shouldn't instructors advise their students in such areas when they feel they can improve their performance by doing so?

[Bill Glasheen]

If I recall, weightlifting was NOT something the old masters proposed as integral to their art.

Let's remember that the old masters didn't have a Gold's Gym down the street. Meanwhile, Kanbun's school in China had jars filled with sand, and Okinawans are known for putting cement on the end of sticks and making weights out of old truck transmission parts.

If the old masters had new equipment and new techniques, they would have used them.

Strength, endurance, and flexibility are a good start for fitness. But as I articulated above (twice) don't stop there. Martial arts also works on speed, power, and the ability to hit, take a hit or take a fall - among other things.

- Bill

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Interesting discussion.

Based on my reading over the years: It seems that, no matter the activity, a "cardio base" is always a suggested beginning to fitness, then basic strength training, and stretching is always included. But, basic cardio is VERY important for the foundation, it seems to make all the rest better.

FWIW

[benzocaine]

What I would suggest is that people who aren't as fit as they could be (which can limit their ability to defend themselves, pursue their art, and represent their art), be asked to buff things up a bit before testing and that the fitness prescription vary by the individual's age, medical conditions, body type, and individual circumstances."

This poses no burden to the fit, no unfair limitation to the infirm, and allows for an individual instructor's judgement

OK. This brings us back to what 2 Green has asked, and that was do we need the instructors to be cerified fitness instructor?? I don't think it's as easy as leaving a training regemine up to the instructor. Some instructors beleive a person's chi will save them.

I agree that we all need to be in good shape that should be part of a blackbelts image. But I've been overweight since I was 8 years old. I have a layer on me that I've shrunk by 60 lbs over the last 3 years (yikes!). Another 20 lbs and I'll be at my IDB of 198 lbs. I've worked hard to get where I am and I keep saying over and over here that you should just set some basic goals like x number pushups.. ten back to back seisans...and all I keep hearing is that it has to be even more complex than that. What are we to do.. line everyone up on a stage like a bodybuilding contest? We all test sanchin with shirts off. If we're chubby, trus tme, we are aware.

Last december sensei John Carria told a room full of us to look to your right. That's the level of fitness you want to acheive. If you are to the right of someone(the higher ranks) and know you are less fit (than the lower ranks)you need to fix that problem.