Do you "test" your kids' conditioning?

[mhosea]

Thanks for the pointer and the invitation, Fred.

[Bill Glasheen]

( In my country at least) there is a big difference between sport and Traditional ukemi waza.the sports stuff I did, we did a lot of back breakfalls whereas the Trad was mainly rolls

you can see it most with Ushiro. In Sports aiki you are whipped back and do a backward breakfall, in trad you go back gently and roll out.

I can't vouch for your personal experiences. However the distinctions you make do not pass my "sniff test."

A back break-fall and a back roll are two completely different techniques which are used in two completely different situations. Sometimes you have the luxury of rolling back and getting quickly to your feet. Other times the throwing technique done to you is such that you are being throw directly down into the floor. The break-fall there is the only choice; it makes no sense to roll.

What I'm saying is that this most definitely is not a stylistic difference. It's a matter of applying the correct response to a given situation. You need both. If you are being rotated in space and you are let go, you roll. If you are being thrown straight down and/or your legs are otherwise being held, you break-fall.

The exact same thing holds true for a forward roll vs. a forward rolling break fall. For example if someone is doing a shoulder throw on you and is holding on to your arm, you have no choice but to break-fall. If someone throws you and lets go, then you can roll out.

Nevertheless, I see once again your tendency to compartmentalize the martial arts into neat bins with well-defined boundaries. My brain doesn't work that way. It's all fighting to me, we all work with the same human body, and we all are using the same principles of movement.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Bill
I have done traditional aikido to blackbelt and sport aikido to blue belt before I had to stop due to my arthritis......I don't know what your sniff test is, however, if you have knowledge of both styles of Aikido then you will know that they are very different animals.
Sport is a lot quicker, has kumite practice and competitions, black belts only wear hakama when they give demonstrations
here is sport
http://www.londonaikido.com/static.php?page=atemi_waza

notice they refer to it as "Tomiki" after the guy who founded it, notice the lack of Hakama, notice the back breakfalls

here is traditional
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FfMx_STiJM
Quote
Nevertheless, I see once again your tendency to compartmentalize the martial arts into neat bins with well-defined boundaries. My brain doesn't work that way. It's all fighting to me, we all work with the same human body, and we all are using the same principles of movement.


actually No Bill .other folks did that for me by naming their styles, I think it's more of a case of you make rash generalisations.
the reason for styles are many in the case of Tomiki style they tend to use backbreakfalls because it is a harder faster style...........If you had even a basic knowledge of both styles then you would know this

[TSDguy]

The first 'sport' site looks like they could/should roll out of those fairly wimpy take downs, where as the second 'traditional' clip the guy does a side break fall.

I do agree if you throw someone, they shouldn't be able to roll out of it. You slam them through the floor.

Edit: I think the guys in the first clips ARE rolling out of the wimpy take downs, but the GIFs cut off too soon.

[jorvik]

Well those guys aren't the best, the guy who taught me was brilliant. You can't roll out of those throws, and they are usually done very hard. What they do is a kind backbreakfall/roll.they don't actually roll over as in Traditional which is in fact a different roll.....the second clip is what I would call a roll and not a side breakfall, and most aikidoka would tend to think of it that way.I've heard it described as a "flip", you are basically rolling in mid air .......there is a kind of build up in traditional Aikido to getting that skill, where you start by doing very basic low rolls and as you get better , they get faster and then you flip.in trad they tend to do easy takedown techniques like Ikkyo and faster flip throw like kotae Gaeshi.in Tomiki they have a different syllabus and it tends to be hard back breakfalls and flips as well..and that would be stuff like Shomen Ate for the backbreakfall and they also do kote gaeshi but slightly different for the flip.

[TSDguy]

I called it a breakfall instead of a roll because he's getting smacked directly into the mat, and not redirecting the energy anywhere (as in getting back up.) As Bill mentioned, if you're moving straight down or being held in someway, you can't roll harmlessly out of it. You bite the bullet and slam into a breakfall.

[jorvik]

Well maybe, You'd have to do some Aikido to really see it the way that I see it. Side breakfalls aren't really part of Aikido, they are more like a failed roll out........that last clip is pretty fake IMHO it's the kind of touch me and fly type of Aikido.
My favourite style is Yoshinkan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89I ... ed&search=

My Aikido instructor was a judo instructor as well, and my first art was jiu-jitsu, so I differentiate between systems.

Those two styles are very different, and that is not my opinion ....Morihei Ueshiba wanted Tomiki to change the name of his style from Aikido to something else, but he died before this came about.
Folks always go on about Aikido being none competative.and yet in Tomiki style you have competitions ....so as I said before you have to do different breakfalls.
IMHO for self defence the Tomiki style is miles ahead of trad.........those clips were shown in a hurry, but if you see a couple of good blackbelts do it then it si far more martial than trad

[Bill Glasheen]

jorvik

I am a shodan in Tomiki method of aikido, and have instructor status. I've mentioned this many times in the past, so I'm not just making it up to refute you. So I guess you can say I have enough knowledge of the subject to say that your argument doesn't hold water.

To put it in the most generalized form...

• Rolls are best used to mitigate being hurled horizontally. If you try break-falling under such circumstances, you're going to subject yourself to serious shear forces.
• Break-fals are best used to mitigate being hurled vertically (straight down). You cannot roll out of being slammed straight down into the ground.

You cannot be serious about any grappling art where throws are involved without being able to do both. Throw style out the window here; this is just common sense.

By the way, I went to the homepage of Tomiki Aikido (http://www.tomiki.org), and found the following gif file right on the front page.



Oh my God, Ray, WTF is that? A back... ROLL.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Shodokan Aikido (昭道館合気道, Shōdōkan Aikidō) is the style of aikido founded by Professor Kenji Tomiki （富木 謙治 Tomiki Kenji, 1900–1979). It is sometimes referred to as Sport Aikido due to the fact that it is the only style of aikido to hold regular competitions, and also referred to as Tomiki Aikido, after its founder. It places more emphasis on free-form randori sparring than most other styles of aikido. The training method requires a balance between randori and the more stylized kata training along with a well developed set of training drills both specific for randori and for general aikido development. The participation in actual shiai (competitive randori) very much depends on the club with greater emphasis being found in the university clubs.

***

For a great article on the style, see the Wikipedia reference at Shodokan Aikido

[Stryke]

Never let the facts get in the way of the truth .

I learned very crude falling and the typical watered down falls as taught by karate that one gets if hes been around the karate world ....

but I really liked the subtle poiinters I got from working with some aikidoka , made things mae a lot more sense to me .

First thing I was ever taught going to a BJJ class was to roll , litlerally , just to get comfort with ground contact etc and orientation .

all good stuff .

but yup it depends on the throw , one size tenchnique never fits all .

falling is a good skill and one I hope to continue to improve in , it saved my neck when on a building set one morning about 4 am , early concrete pour dark , and quite a nasty fall onto concrete pad .

landed on my back , broke my fall , and was fine , the others there really thought I was going to be messed up .

beauty of it was an ingrained response , Id broken the fall before I conciously even realise what was happening .

[f.Channell]

Maybe not known to those outside grappling arts is that Ukemi is also used to initiate throws.

Such as this.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... gaeshi.htm

So the faster you fall the more force you generate in the throw.

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Fred

Thanks for the reference.

The lower sumi gaeshi is one of my favorites. I tried hotlinking it, but the site won't let me. It's a most amazing technique, and is the "antidote" to those who are ABSOLUTELY SURE that they can get you when they make you back up. I so love baiting people by backing up, and then take them.

After having learnned it, I keep wanting "the good guy" to do it in a movie whenever he's backed up against the edge of a cliff. You know how all that movie fight choreography goes... Why don't they hear me when I yell at them?

My Tomiki Aikido instructor was also my Goju instructor. He could choreograph a bunkai like nobody I've ever met. Several of our kata bunkai ended with this technique - but with a twist. Instead of doing the back fall as pictured in the "sport move", we'd do a back roll. So you'd end up on top of the person "BJJ style." We'd finish with a head shot (or two...). Just check with our buddy Joey Pomfret for a proper ending.

- Bill

[Stryke]

It's a most amazing technique, and is the "antidote" to those who are ABSOLUTELY SURE that they can get you when they make you back up. I so love baiting people by backing up, and then take them.

you can do absolutley anything once you have contact and the movement is displacing/manipulating them , I think the backing up issue is when your trying to maintain a fictional control of distance .

Anyone whos absolutley sure is an idiot BTW .

always about Improving the odds .

I love sacrafice throws BTW , maybe one of the reasons I prefer to engage , along with all the clinching throwing impacting etc you can do when your not runing away .

[TSDguy]

Bill,

Bruce Lee and co. made great use of sacrifice throws. The one that springs to mind is Chuck Norris, in Return of the Dragon, on the Japanese master where he does the roll over on top thing instead of the throw, but various sacrifice throws were in almost every Lee movie.

[f.Channell]

The sacrifice is a great move unless it fails. Then he's standing over you and your on your back!

Also in competition I would pull it off and a crappy judge would score a takedown against me, even though I took the guy down, and sometimes was on him in a pin.

All in all a great move, especially if the other guys stronger.

Nothings perfect right!

F.