Uechi vs Headlocks

[Glenn]

Honest to God, people, sometimes I think I could teach karate better than a real, ranked karate instructor just because most have memorized the moves and I have to understand the movement. Qualitative difference.

But a qualitative difference that matters in my opinion. The history stories of martial arts of old (from all over the world) indicate that to become a teacher you had to prove yourself, either by surviving battle or winning challenges, so it stands to reason that the successful ones who became teachers understood the movements. You did not learn combat from the dead, fencing from someone who lost duels, or kungfu/karate from someone who could not win challenge fights against other fighters. Today there really is no such requirement to teach, and thus there seem to be quite a few who get to teach who have only memorized the moves.

Unfortunately there is no way for a potential student to tell the difference, and they often are left to judge using the only visible sign available to them, the number of sport trophies in the window.

[Bill Glasheen]

1) Play with bodies.

You need to take this stuff out of the box and play with it. Until you have, it's just code without The Rosetta Stone.

Honest to God, people, sometimes I think I could teach karate better than a real, ranked karate instructor just because most have memorized the moves and I have to understand the movement. Qualitative difference.

I too feel a need to quote this.

Martial arts is no different than many academic disciplines. I remember way back when I had the choice to take organic chem with the pre-meds (presumably easier) or with the majors (presumably more difficult), that I chose the latter without a second thought. And why? Because my brain wasn't built to memorize and regurgitate. The only way I can learn is to understand how something works.

This is why I generally don't parse techniques into styles. Rather I see styles as various means to an end - to learn HOW to fight.

Nice post, Rory; thanks for the visit. And I owe you a note or two. Stay tuned.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"This is why I generally don't parse techniques into styles. Rather I see styles as various means to an end - to learn HOW to fight. "

but when you call a pig, a monkey you confuse folks..and to folks who know the difference it appears that you don't know the difference

[Bill Glasheen]

Quote
"This is why I generally don't parse techniques into styles. Rather I see styles as various means to an end - to learn HOW to fight. "

but when you call a pig, a monkey you confuse folks..and to folks who know the difference it appears that you don't know the difference

This isn't Animal House, Ray.

You are on the opposite end of this whole discussion, so I'm not even going to bother. Been there too many times with you on this to know it will do any good.

The memorizers and uber stylists out there may never get my post above - which is fine by me. It isn't my job to tell others how they should learn. Each person brings a unique brain to the classroom. We all find ways to get it done.

The advantage of the person who "understands the movement" rather than "memorize the moves" cannot be overstated. Because the truth is that life is never quite like what you encounter in the classroom. This is true in the academic world, and it is also true in the martial world.

Execution at the moment of truth first requires that you have mastered and internalized the concepts and principles. And then it requires an ability to adapt to the specific manifestation of the scenario in question. You cannot be like the tea in the teacup - to use a Chinese metaphor - if you are a memorizer. You may get lucky and find something EXACTLY like what you encounter in the classroom. But don't count on it. It isn't in Sanchin, it isn't in Sanseiryu, it isn't in Dan Kumite, and it isn't in your teacher's special exercise. "It" is in the understanding you have developed by taking the material and twisting it seven ways to Sunday. It is understood, learned, and earned on the floor and on the mat. It is picked up not in a single class, but in repeated sessions with time to digest in-between.

In my world, part of "seven ways to Sunday" has been my journey through the martial world. I see the same concepts and principles applied over and over again in different venues. I see people using different languages, arts, and metaphors to describe the same general thing. After a while it's no longer a technique. "It" is internalized. Your ability to execute then becomes a matter of your abilities, the ability of your opponent, and a touch of chance. And the more prepared and practiced you are, the more chance seems to work in your favor.

I could teach karate better than a real, ranked karate instructor

Rory isn't a karate guy, and yet he says this. Why? Is it because he is arrogant? Or does he see something that others don't?

Oh and for the record, I agree with him.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

One more thought.

For the record, I don't see Uechi Ryu as a "vanilla" karate style. I see it as a bridge style between the striking and the grappling arts. This is the conclusion I have arrived at after having studied and practiced it for many years, and have seen people cross-train with such tremendous success.

If people knew much of Okinawan Karate that way, they might arrive at the same conclusion. However contemporary karate is something very different from the fighting arts that previous generations on Okinawa practiced before commercialization and productization.

- Bill

[fivedragons]

delete.

[Bill Glasheen]

It's cool, fivedragons. Speak your mind.

Just remember - issues and not personalities.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Bill , we do change our perceptions over the years ,initially I never saw too much grappling in uechi ,untill I had a fight for real and we came to grips with one another ,and again in real fights I have been on the end of a few headlocks and stuggled to break free ,and I firmly beileve a real fight is the ultimate teacher ,you learn more from one real fight than loads of combat theory ,even if the talkers have been there and done it .

[Glenn]

I firmly beileve a real fight is the ultimate teacher ,you learn more from one real fight than loads of combat theory ,even if the talkers have been there and done it .

Which is why black-belt tests should take place in biker bars
There is a story I've heard around here, I do not know if there is any truth to it or not, that during his formative years in Japan the now Colorado-based Enshin Karate and Sabaki Challenge founder Joko Ninomiya would regularly pick fights outside bars to test his techniques/skills, and figure out what really works and what doesn't. That would be some dedication to keeping your martial arts real and honest!

[IJ]

Rory mentioned that he has 5-10 seconds once he gets tunnel vision in a choke... I think we need to clarify what is meant by "in a choke." We struggle for chokes all the time in class, and may or may not get them. I'm going to assume/state (because this is partly definitional) that Rory wasn't "in the choke" the way we think of it UNTIL 5-6 seconds before blackout. Until then, he was just under threat of a choke. Once one is sunk it correctly, you're gone in seconds if you don't escape first.

I have seen, for example, lots of people rolling around with a triangle locked in place without tapping; Anderson Silva had that problem with Lutter and had to submit him with strikes, and I've rolled people around from under them to rolled over my head to on top to the side before they finally tap or I switch to an arm bar. I'VE been rolled around the same way. It depends on whether there's any space to move blood around, for example, if there's too much shoulder in, or the choker has skinny legs and the lock just isn't tight as a result, or the inside arm is well tucked at the opponent's hip or with the palm on your forehead. On the other hand once the triangle choke is IN, people tap or pass out somewhere between immediately to within a very few seconds.

Knowing which situation you're in and remaining calm are both crucial for any chance of getting out. And there are chokes I can do that many will tap from immediately but others will put up with until they can escape, even if just barely and purple at the time. Important lesson for the real world, where you want an unconscious opponent, not a submission.

[f.Channell]

Sorry I've been busy all week.
Just wanted to go back to Vans initial question.

Does your martial art style have a defense against headlocks? Any good ones for defending against rear chokes and side headlocks?

My response is that no mainstream Uechi techniques in Bunkai or Kumite have it.
This is why I said it's not in the system.
Bill trains this stuff at Camp for sure and I'm sure he has the extra techniques in his Dojo training. I keep the technique application separate more in the style they come from, because my thoughts are that the learning method has been well thought out, and it should be followed.
But it seems several times a year I run across an ex-Uechi guy at a BJJ class, or Jujitsu or Judo class. Who saw it lacking and went in search of it.
Usually they got the "Why you want to learn that, It's all in the Kata" Rant.
Usually they are done with Uechi at that point.

F.

[hoshin]

Bill may look at ink blots and see all kinda of uechi techniques there, i just see an ink blot.

other systems actually paint a very vivid picture like the monalisa.

i could compare our system to ink blots ,concepts and principals.
but other systems have a technique designed for and specific to a situation.

while Bill belittled and insulted my comment. to me it still stand true.
can i uechi guy use uechi to defend against a head lock ? sure all day long. my first reaction would be to punch him in the nads if i could. but this was not the intent of the LEO looking for a technique defense for a head lock.
our SYSTEM is not technique driven it is concept/ principal driven.
thus the "all is sanchin". attitude ,,,,"you just have to look for it and have a 6th Dan or higher to see it" aint that right BILL.
well other systems are much better at specific situations.
not saying their METHOD is better just pointing out what the LEO was looking for.
he didnt want to spend years learning sanchin. waiting for Bills ink blot to revail itself.
he wanted concrete "if he does this i do that", AND MAKE IT WORK as close to 100% as possible.

[MikeK]

Does your martial art style have a defense against headlocks? Any good ones for defending against rear chokes and side headlocks?

It's a simple question, and not really a good one from my perspective as at best it's too generic, or at worst it's a loaded question and a red herring to boot.

Jeeze guys, f##k the system/style/ryu ha/school of enlightenment/cult/box/dead end/coffin whatever the hell you want to call what you believe in or do and just ask yourself; do you have anything in your toolbox for headlocks, rear chokes, attack with a blunt object, etc?
You either do or you don't have something and the ability to execute it when it matters, it's really that simple and it doesn't mean jack sh!t if your system/style/ryu ha/school of enlightenment/cult/box/dead end/coffin has it or not, and it sure as hell doesn't matter if long dead grand master what's his name had it either.

[maxwell ainley]

The "All is in Sanchin " really ref; within uechi-ryu first and foremost .

I fully agree other styles package certain fighting tactics /techniques in a upfront manner ,but Sanchin is not so up front ,the problem lies in putting it together, this could be uechi's downfall ,in modern times .

[hoshin]

dont get me wrong i am not debating styles. i am a tried and true uechi guy. but within a style there is an operating system. the LEO i belive was looking for a "technique" for a head lock that he inturn could practice and maybe pass to the next guy. not a full range of concepts that could work for mulitple aplications under various circumstances.
now we could all come up with thousands of defenses against a headlock. i agree with mike that what really matters is can you defend yourself and make it work for real.
but... me defending myself and me teaching and giving an LEO is something different. they usually cant strike and are not looking to violently END the confrontation but to secure and detain someone. which means fend the attack with out causing exsessive damage while retaining ones own weapon.

steve
~~~~