My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu

gjkhoury · Post by **gjkhoury** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:24 am

I will say this:

I suppose those of you who oppose "point" sparring because it impinges upon our traditional roots are ready for the tradition born on Okinawa of kicking the **** out of your opponent at the delight of the test board?

Why the deafening silence, boys?!

You “traditionalists” are the laughing stock of modern Uechi-ryu. Get out from behind your keyboards and onto a mat somewhere. Better yet, if you want to experience true TRADITIONAL Uechi-ryu, put yourself in front of Masters like Van Canna-sensei and Bob Bethony-sensei, or find yourself on the receiving end of an Oshiro round kick at the Naha Dojo on Okinawa. Then come back to us and report your findings about point fighting, contact fighting or ANY OTHER kind of fighting! Because the truth of the matter is, as Dave-sensei alluded to earlier, EITHER YOU ARE A FIGHTER OR YOU ARE NOT A FIGHTER. The format in which you fight is unimportant. Only the spirit and tenacity and ferociousness you bring to it matter.

See, far too many of us are engaged in a form of martial masturbation from which you derive no climax. Doing Uechi for the “art’s sake”? To carry on tradition? HA! The only true Uechi tradition is a fighting tradition!

So are you doing it, or are you not? And if you are, please avail yourself of the opportunity of visiting my school and facing any number of our fine FIGHTERS. You pick the (traditional—or any other) rules, we’ll oblige. We care far less about the process here and much more about the result. I suggest that the rest of you start doing the same.

Gary

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 9:16 am

Bill: Great comment:

"And speaking of trying to define your art in your sparring, why aren't we grabbing more? Dumping people? Grappling? In my book, we are a transition style between the strikers and grapplers. More than a few of us out here can converse in both domains."

Gary:

Disappointing post.

You are taking the fact that some people do not wish to follow your path as an insult.

I intended no insult to your path. In fact in my first post I made the comment "There is also no doubt that a well fought sport karate match can be exciting and formidable. This was made clear to me at the 1999 camp by the demonstration sparring held that year." I posted on your very own forum that after seeing your demonstration of sport sparring I would never again comment that point sparring was "wimpy" form of fighting because there were versions out that were very hard fighting forms. That previous comment had been generated by what "I" had seen in tournaments. I corrected it and formally acknowledged it.

The point of my post was the requirement of generic form of sparring on the Dan test forces me to follow a path that is not mine. No, Gary I do not like generic sport karate personally for all the reasons I have stated. That is my personal opinion and my personal right to hold it, whether you can kick my ass or not is not going to change that.

Insult and slam as many of the posters on this thread as you wish but you cannot deny me my opinion and beliefs. I raised a legitimate question as I believe is also my right. The IUKF can also decide in the end to chose the generic format for the Uechi Ryu Dane test. That will be their right and I will have to deal with it.

If comments I made were in error then correct them! If the ridge hand in sport sparring does not have to be hooked out so the judges can see it, then correct my error and interpretation. But if it does then logically my interpretation is valid.

I would have preferred to have seen from you an explanation of how you saw the generic sparring expressed Uechi Ryu techniques (you've already shown me I was wrong once, perhaps you would do it again). Or, as George Sensei has been doing, saying you simply want to see a demonstration of fighting spirit and fighting reactions. You want to see it in the most liable free format.

Are fighting spirit and fighting reactions part of Uechi Ryu. Well, now there would be something I could not argue. The case would then be to use the rest of the test to demonstrate Uechi Ryu technique and the liable free generic sport sparring to demonstrate the fighting spirit and reaction portion. Therefore "The format in which you fight is unimportant." However, the format can important depending on the purpose.

I have always commented to people that they could give you any set of rules they wish and you would be a champion of that form of sparring. I have a lot of respect for you and have always expressed that. I am disappointed in your post, not that that should mean anything to you. I am also disappointed because I know people do not post on these forums because they believe they will be attacked in just such a response.

Gary, you can probably kick the ass of 99% of the Uechi world including mine, but that does not mean I have to follow your path?

I won't teach the generic form of sport karate. That is my personal choice and I stand by it. And I am the last person anyone would call traditional.

Rick

candan · Post by **candan** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>See, far too many of us are engaged in a form of martial masturbation from which you
derive no climax. Doing Uechi for the “art’s sake”? To carry on tradition? HA! The only
true Uechi tradition is a fighting tradition! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rick,
I do not see Gary`s comments as an attack on your veiws, his belief is his as well. I like the martial masturbation comment and those that study Uechi for "Arts sake" should take take heed that we are a "hybrid" system that breeds very spunky fighters and with it often comes an "aggressive attitude"

(thank Budda) The testing boards are challenged to keep a balance and the instructors need to send students to the board that meet that balance. I have seen fellow students who can not fight in tournament (full contact or point) worth a damn but when I do seisan bunkai/Dan kumite with them I can sense the aggression. [on one test I made a mistake and for reason unknown kicked one hard in family jewels] he wasn`t a "good" fighter but he really demonstrated fighting spirit by not stoping and I saw the fight in his eyes let alone the "you S.O.B.!" attitude he had in his attacks/"defense". We scored high

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gary, you can probably kick the ass of 99% of the Uechi world including mine, but that
does not mean I have to follow your path?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I hear of Gary and others it is likely that he and many of his top students can drop any student (and me) that I place in front of him. BUT, Will he afterwards say " That was no walk in the park"..I hope so.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited April 07, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:11 pm

I am not a part of IUKF but I will add the sparring format we use for testing at my school.

We do continuous, 2 minute rounds. Contact is allowed everywhere except the back, groin, and throat. Light contact to the head, moderate contact to the rest of the body. Sweeps are allowed. I've asked my teacher about doing throws and he said that would be fine too. The reason I've not thrown anyone on a dan test yet is because we train on wood floors and most of the school is not well trained in falling. Our sparring stops when someone falls. You can grab a kick, but you cannot hold onto a leg. If you grab, you must do something with the grab within a second. Since we stop when someone hits the ground, chokes are never used. The required safety devices are hand protection, mouth guards, and cups.

<bf>If you are going to encourage sweeping and throwing then ukemi - falling - must be a fundamental requirement just like arm pounding and leg pounding.</f> It should be a part of kyu tests and dan tests. If a student fails the falling portion of the test then they must do "standing" only sparring or not spar at all. What good does it do to condition the body if you've not taught folks how to fall? And for the record, just because you can fall for the takedown in dan kumite does not mean you understand how to fall in many situations from different attacks.

To train more in a 1/2 mat 1/2 floor format would allow for more throws and sweeps and fewer injuries. And I feel the floor is still needed to remind folks that there are no mats to fall onto outside of a dojo and falling on a hard floor/ground takes a skill that is best developed in a dojo.

In order to see striking as well as grappling skills then 2 formats are needed. The first format would be “standing” sparring, like I’ve described above or whatever is the agreed upon format. The action is continuous but the match stops when someone is on the ground. A fall to the ground would be considered a “submission” for this format. The second format would be to start from the standing position, but continue once on the ground. However, once on the ground head contact should be off limits. A seizing or locking of the joint or a choke would be the “submission” for this format. Locks and chokes could be done standing or on the ground.

This would also mean that choke revivals must be known and taught, and control must be learned in locking the joints. Otherwise the only thing you’ll end up with is people pounding on each other on the ground. Which may be what ends up happening on the street, but does not allow for candidates to be rated on their various skills. With the two formats you would be able to judge candidate’s striking skills and their grappling skills.

Sorry to be so long winded.
Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited April 07, 2002).]

Post by **gmattson** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:29 pm

Lets try to keep this topic informative and interesting. We should all feel that our points of view and personal feelings about this subject can be presented without fear of being bashed by those who may feel differently about the subject. There are lots of readers who probably feel like joining in, but don't wish to participate because they may have a view that differes from what has been presented here.

So far our discussion has focused on the latest dan test conducted by IUKF. Because of this, I wish to try and summarize the current IUKF position on dan testing and sparring. Although the IUKF's position towards sparring and the test in general relects the collective feeling of the *majority* of teachers, IUKF cannot allow any activitey to take place under it's banner that is illegal or violates current insurance requirements.

1. IUKF does not dictate how the individual dojo teach or practice Uechi-ryu. The organization's only concern is that the dojo does not violate the IUKF codes of conduct and ethics.
How does this translate into realism and traditional methods of striking one's opponent? Simple: You can practice any kind of sparring you wish within the control of your dojo and sensei. This way, the student will know in advance, what to expect and whether or not s/he wants to participate. When multiple dojo are involved, IUKF cannot reasonably expect all students from all dojo to understand or agree to another dojo's standard of fighting, contact or conduct.

2. IUKF shares training methods and techniques with member dojo, for the purpose of expanding the scope and potential of the individual dojo.
As an organization, we can have multiple specializations and experts who train with the dojo. Students have the option to expand their basic Uechi training with these unique methods. However, just because a teacher decides to expand his/her horizons, does not mean that IUKF will, as an organization, change its dan testing or philosophy to reflect any individual's or group's new appreciation or understanding of Uechi-ryu.

3. IUKF will also share training concerns and misconceptions with individual dojo.

4. IUKF determines dan test standards for all ranks and on a Region by Region basis, maintains these standards. Regional standards must meet the *minimum* standards created on Okinawa and described in the "Black Belt Test Guide" but may, on a Regional level, create higher standards.
Individual Regions may have tougher standards than is practiced elsewhere, but they must maintain a minimum standard always. Each Region must not create a standard that violates any law and their actions must be covered by insurance.

5. IUKF maintains that Uechi-ryu is a *fighting* system and any dan rating must reflect this.
All IUKF dantests must have free-fighting as part of the test. All candidates under stated ages must pass this sparring test. IUKF has allowed for some exceptions to this rule in the case of handicaps)

6. IUKF recognizes that the best method devised to date, to test a candidate's *minimum* fighting ability, is through the *free-fight* method.

As an organization, IUKF will continue to try improving on making the dantest more realistic and a better test of one's fighting ability. However, in order to become a Regional requirement, a majority of dojo must approve the change/addition and the method must still meet the legal/insurance test.

7. IUKF must act in the best interest of students, teachers and seniors when organizing activities and events involving the IUKF.

8. IUKF has legal representatives who advise the organization regarding liability and negligence.

9. Any method of sparring that IUKF may adopt for activities involving multiple dojo , must satisfy legal and insurance requirments that cover these activities. IUKF does not get involved with dojo activites controlled by individual teachers.

I also recommend that if someone has a specific question, that it is posted as a new topic. This thresd is getting a bit long and disjointed. And please. . . lets keep the discussion in perspective. We aren't talking about religion here. We won't go to Hell if we don't hit one another's legs in a dantest!

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GEM

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:57 pm

Rick,

Gary’s post may be a bit poignant, as I knew it would be, but is not entirely out of line. I don’t think that his message is about “kicking anyone’s ass” but more of a metaphorical venting impulse common to the high strung emotional makeup of champions, such as Gary.

He is like a hedgy racehorse awaiting the “get go”__

I don’t think he perceives your feelings on the matter as a personal insult to his path at all.
He is just expressing his passions, as we all do at one time or another, in varying degrees of vehemence.

This intensity is what sets outstanding martial artists apart from the usual run of the mill.

Intensity is what I look for in Dan test candidates.

You are just as outstanding a martial artist as Gary because of your passions.

We must remember that we see and interpret Uechi Ryu, other fine martial arts, and related modern components, through the eyes of our personality filters, training methodologies, personal experiences in real life and sport engagements, and senseis influence.

Gary has had a strong influence by some world famous Okinawan masters, as well as modern combative coaches, and I am very proud of him.

I am also glad that he is stirring up the pot, so to speak, in order to stimulate further discussions and thinking on the subject matter, which you astutely brought to our attention.

Let’s not take offense at what he writes, rather lets read in between the lines and come up with a solution that we can all live with, without any perceived or real compromises that may have undesirable consequences from many a viewpoint.

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 07, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 7:22 pm

I think we have room here for two valid statements.

1) Rick originally protested the specific format at the most recent dan test. From conversations I've had behind the scenes, it seems that a few others aren't happy too. However they just whine behind the scenes, and someone like Van comes on here trying to articulate all their points of view (naturally through his own eyes). Rick stated specifically why he does not like this format. I don't agree with everything he says, but some of his points have strong merit.

2) Gary - in his own way (nicely articulated, Van) - stated the Nike slogan (Just do it). He doesn't really care so much what format people want. He would like to see people do less overanalysis and more doing. Whatever format you choose, the way you approach it is more important than what it specifically demands of you.

It's easy to see how all this mumbo jumbo about art and tradition can frustrate someone like Gary. It's easy to see how he can take some of this personally, because he personifies doing. No that way, Gary. Sic 'em!! He throws himself into things and gives it his all. And you do not want to be around him (God bless his soul...) when he loses. Now...how do you think a personality like that - a doer - feels when groups of people whine and complain about this and that and another format, and few people are actually participating the way he does (regardless of the rules you want to make)?

It's easy to see how folks like Rick can get frustrated when he perceives that his style is being "hijacked" by those that see things differently from him. Heck...a lot of people posting here (no names mentioned) are similarly complaining.

I'd like to make a few suggestions...

1) Experiment on your own (as suggested by George via the IUKF guidelines). Maybe you want to go try this or that or some other existing format. Maybe you want to make up your own.

2) DO it! Strive for excellence.

3) Share your experiences with all of us (just as Dana did above). Tell us what you liked and what you didn't like. Tell us what it draws out of your kata. Tell us how and why it helps you achieve your end.

4) At the end of the day, invite Gary!

5) Thanks, Rick, for stirring up the pot. Now...where can we go from here?

6) Thanks, Gary, for letting me "play" with your gang before the last Okinawa tournament in Atlanta. I had fun! Thanks, Gary, for inspiring my son. He was ready to quit karate until the two of us came to your seminar two camps ago. He still ***** at what he does (God bless him…) but he’s learning because he’s in there getting his butt whipped by people twice his size.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 07, 2002).]

Post by **gmattson** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 7:41 pm

Now we seem to be getting somewhere...

Where was all the help when the martial arts were in its infancy and the insurance companies were begging for information from the organizational leaders regarding issues of safety and rules? I tried desperately to get the Uechi people to make an attempt at giving the world the impression we were united and all working towards the same goals. While we were complaining about petty issues, other systems attacked the real issues in force and helped the legal/insurance industies write the regulations we must now live with.

I believe Gary is saying that although the rules of the day may be important and he may wish they were different, they should not be used as excuses for poor performance in a tournament or at a dan test. I thoroughly and wholeheartedly agree.

Unhappy with something? Get involved with IUKF or your own organization and start doing something productive. Meanwhile. . . understand the risks that your dojo instructor takes every time he works with you in his/her dojo. Understand and appreciate the risks every test board member and senior visitors take every time they conduct a test. Our insurance and no insurance I am aware of, will cover the kind of sparring some of us are discussing.

Regarding Rick's original comments about sparring, I don't find anything in what he said or asked a bit controversial. As the owner/teacher in an IUKF member dojo, Rick can interprete and practice any way he chooses. But, as an IUKF member, his students must be able to demonstrate a *minimum* ability to defend themselves in the standard and universally accepted format we call a dantest.

It is his right to lobby for change and if a majority of members agree with him, we will certainly incorporate his standards/methods in our tests. We are not slaves to history or to anything else we do. I do know, after two years discussions and meetings concerning the making of very small changes to non-traditional kata items, how difficult making such changes will be. Nevertheless, the option is always there for those who feel things should be done differently.

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GEM

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 7:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So are you doing it, or are you not? And if you are, please avail yourself of the opportunity of visiting my school and facing any number of our fine FIGHTERS. You pick the (traditional—or any other) rules, we’ll oblige. We care far less about the process here and much more about the result. I suggest that the rest of you start doing the same.

This is along the lines of what I was trying to make a point of. The test board should allow the candidate to "fight their fight" so to speak. Gear, No Gear, Point Fighting, 2 minute round, 3 minute rounds, Multiple 1 minute rounds....

Post by **gmattson** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 8:34 pm

Tony:
We might be able to do this someday, but right now it would be a problem. I would say 90% of our students do not practice more than 2 or 3 times a week for 1 - 1 1/2 hours a class. They are not professional fighters and they may not understand the implications of your words.

"Sure Sensei, I'll do what you say! Throw me into the ring"!

Then he gets hurt! Guess who is to blame?

We can do anything we want. But getting away with it does not mean we are either smart or right. Those things are determined in a court of law where Johnny Cocharane is explaining the injured student's position.

Do you want to be on the stand trying to explain how your student is responsible for getting injured because the dojo down the street does it that way. . . or thats the way they do it on Okinawa?

You will need a much better explanation and you better have documentation and signed waivers stating everything you will be claiming.

Does anyone have the releases and statement of conditions Tony Blauer makes you sign before he sells you one of his suits? There is a reason for this. If anyone is interested, we might use this example of "warnings for proper use" to compare with what we are talking about having our students do here. There is a parallel which is very important.

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GEM

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 9:43 pm

Gary:

If I misinterpreted your post then please accept my apology.

Rick

candan · Post by **candan** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 11:46 pm

Dantest have been around a long time and has been affected by the changing expectations of society i.e. suing for injuries, insurance coverage, growing dojo numbers & independence. Always complaints of the test format or method, which can be a good thing if it contributes to improvement.
High performance teams use a self assessment method that is very effective in producing continuos improvement.

First: focus on what IS working well (that needs to be acknowledged and maintained)

Second: What didn`t go well? (agree on no more than two items to allow for success)

Third: What can be done differently? Bench mark with other groups, find information but make no decision for change until all information is presented. Ask for input from the "customer"[candidates & dojo owners] but the complaints must include a potential solution so as to avoid just negatives.
note: Very important NOT to give reason(s) why the proposed solutions will not work, simply document and review when the group or selected "committee" [cross section of those involved] makes a decision.

Not Karate but it works, it helps focus on the issue and solution not the person(s)

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:57 am

George,

I'm not just talking about IUKF, i'm also talking about my group as well. I have a test coming up in the fall and I know how I have been training. It would ****** if I had to spar in such a way that I couldn't demonstrate to the board how much i've progressed since the last time i've tested. That would happen if I was forced to test under unfamiliar conditions. If this where to happen, it would appear to the board as if I have not been practicing as much as I should when in reality I have, just not within those limitations. Or, if I where to do a single round, when I have been practicing several, back to back... would this be an accurate measurement of my progress? no. But for someone else, it might be. What if someone was really good at taking on multiple opponents? You throw him in there with just one, for a couple minutes and he does well.. but... the test board doesn't get to see the whole picture and they have no idea the direction this person is going.

Tony

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:13 am

This has been a thread that has captured a lot of attention, judging by the number of posts and the relative inactivity on other forums. This is also a subject that is very personal too all that call themselves Uechika as it affects how we will test, and compete, and train for those events.

We are no different than the rest of the world, many of us will resist change simply because it is change. We all believe that our methods are good. We defend them. We are emotionally attached to "our Uechi", we do not want to support "Their Uechi" as it may be different, it may be less, and we resist change. One thing is certain when reading these numerous posts it becomes evident that we all care deeply about Uechi, it's future, it's standards. No wishes to dilute the style. We all want to do what is best for our style.This bodes well for Uechi!

Whenever we get into this method Vs that method dialogue feathers are going to get ruffled. If I was a champion tournament fighter I'd probably become a little irritated if folks referred to what I did as tag, in fact I'd invite them to play with me.

If I focused on full contact striking or grappling I would also be inclined to invite those who dissed my methods to try them.

I think Bill has it right when he says "It's All Good!"

I thought this was pretty black and white in the beginning. I now see it is much more complex than I originally thought. Perhaps we should abandon our emotional position to our training method . Perhaps we should change the questions:

WHAT ARE WE TESTING FOR?

WILL THIS TEST MEASURE IT? (is the test effective in testing what we are testing for)

HOW DO OUR OTHER BRETHERN OF THE STLYE TEST ?

I do want to make it very clear that I admire the leadership that Sensei Mattson has provided this organization. He continues to search for ways to help our style survive and thrive as the years pass. He introduced this style to us and under his leadership it continues to grow. He continues to search for ways to make Uechi thrive. GEM the debt we all owe you for can not be expressed in words. We are lucky to have someone so commited to ensuring that Uechi survives and works in todays society.

Yes we can explore other tests. I suspect the serious warrior always will. These sparring rules do not take that away. So let's consider what they may give us instead.

Laird

nosib · Post by **nosib** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:31 am

Obivously, UECHI RYU is NOT an effective fighting system !!!! for it seems that the tournaments won by individuals sporting a Uechi patch are done so by circumventing Uechi technique in favor of the few generic and ubiquitous tournament techniques. Sporting competitions such as "point" tournaments tend to be no more than glorified tag matches and have little value or relation to real karate. "Point" sparing should not be part of a Dan test...for in a real confrontation Mr. Slow Guy might just crush the Bjesus out of Mr. Whippy Fast point guy!