Spirituality vs Religion

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:08 pm

REGKRAY
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"Some one said many scientists believe the body is a housing for consciouness??? Which scientists?"
there are a few, the most impressive that I have found is here.
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/artic ... ummary.htm
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" This forum has christian Metaphysical assumptions as one would expect
being American, i don't. God does not exist, Jesus is a Myth."

Don't make assumptions REG, for one thing I am not American, and for another my interpretation of Christianity is very different from most peoples. There are many people now who read Gnostic Gospels and Gnostic writings from early Christianity, not to mention the writings of P.D.Ouspensky and Guirdjieff which are termed mystical christianity.
If you get into the metaphysical side of Christianity then there are lots that you can interpret in an entirely different way than that accepted by the majority.
As to " Jesus" being a myth, I personally have no problem with that, it is the teaching that is important, although it would offend some people to be told that......it is not as straightforward as it appears, it is hard to prove the existance of a person named Jesus.....I believe that there is only one referance to him ( historically speaking) much of the history in the Bible does not tally with the Roman records of the time. But it was a time of great turmoil..the time of the first " Holocaust"
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"God does not exist"...........Well after many years of study I disagree, although how you define God, I don't know. All religions, and peoples have always needed religions believed in God or Gods, set moral codes........When I die I may be wrong, but I think I'm much more likely to be pleasantly surprised. Although this is not the reason for being Moral, or my reason.....it just feels a hell of a lot better than Self,Self Self ....all the time.

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"How many so called christians study the origin of the church, the council of Nicea, who wrote the 'Biblical texts? When did they write them. Why were these particular books put together to form the bible and not the many others." ........I do, its great fun

cool as martial arts...wish I read Latin and Greek or Aramaic.......be even better.,
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"jorvik, You're getting close with Green Language"

Well, if you believe in the " Green Language"....the hidden language of mystics, then a lot of what you have said is contradictory

.....Please continue.............

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:39 pm

Hey J-

since I share the same love of searching and studying- I'd love to know more about the "green language" (though I thought it was a referrance to "The Green Man" Father God-Head figure)- and what are the books concerning Christian Mystics- etc. Surprisingly I haven't heard of this before- unless I've heard of it beign called something else-

Are the refferences you made on that one web site? I don't enjoy reading anything that proclaims "anti" anything but information would be awesome- opinions- new thoughts etc. That kind of discussion I crave!

BTW: I like your posts- You are considerate-

K

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:58 am

jorvik wrote:REGKRAY
Quote
"Some one said many scientists believe the body is a housing for consciouness??? Which scientists?"
there are a few, the most impressive that I have found is here.
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/artic ... ummary.htm
Quote

In my time in education which is not finished though I'm 39, most if not all of the scientists I know don't see things that way. IMVHO

" This forum has christian Metaphysical assumptions as one would expect
being American, i don't. God does not exist, Jesus is a Myth."

Don't make assumptions REG, for one thing I am not American,

I make no assumptions I meant the page is American??:)

and for another my interpretation of Christianity is very different from most peoples. There are many people now who read Gnostic Gospels and Gnostic writings from early Christianity, not to mention the writings of P.D.Ouspensky and Guirdjieff which are termed mystical christianity.

I know Ouspensky and Gurdjieff will be turning in their graves being asociated with the word christian that or laughing.

If you get into the metaphysical side of Christianity then there are lots that you can interpret in an entirely different way than that accepted by the majority.

I've studied this for years. The bible is allegory Jesus is a myth. Not ofeesive fact. How come when i say god doesn't exist or Jesuis is a myht I'm berated but when people talk about 'him', as if he is fact, it's not offensive to people like me who don't believe in him.
Could it be to do with Christian Metaphysical assumptions?

As to " Jesus" being a myth, I personally have no problem with that, it is the teaching that is important, although it would offend some people to be told that......it is not as straightforward as it appears, it is hard to prove the existance of a person named Jesus.....I believe that there is only one referance to him ( historically speaking) much of the history in the Bible does not tally with the Roman records of the time. But it was a time of great turmoil..the time of the first " Holocaust"

Yes but they talk of emporers etc If the Son of god was around they'd talk about him.

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"God does not exist"...........Well after many years of study I disagree, although how you define God, I don't know. All religions, and peoples have always needed religions believed in God or Gods, set moral codes........When I die I may be wrong, but I think I'm much more likely to be pleasantly surprised. Although this is not the reason for being Moral, or my reason.....it just feels a hell of a lot better than Self,Self Self ....all the time.

Christians are far more self centered than me in my experience. So you think people who follow religions are more likey to be moral? read the papers.

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"How many so called christians study the origin of the church, the council of Nicea, who wrote the 'Biblical texts? When did they write them. Why were these particular books put together to form the bible and not the many others." ........I do, its great fun cool as martial arts...wish I read Latin and Greek or Aramaic.......be even better.,
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"jorvik, You're getting close with Green Language"

Well, if you believe in the " Green Language"....the hidden language of mystics, then a lot of what you have said is contradictory
.....Please continue.............

This confuses me, if you read the green language as I do you are making no sense???:)

KERRY I did not intend to offend. But if you feel too afraid to engage I'll never know why you got upset.
Why daren't you engage what was it that touched nerve?:)

Keep studying, or for those who haven't started yet start.

RK

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:02 pm

LOL where in the world did you get the impression that I was afraid or offended- if I remember correctly I said- and I quote:

No- I'm not offended- I just see you as having opinions and experiences different than my own- only your questions are put in such a manner to invoak emotions counter-productive to the art of being open to possible avenues of other knowledge- they are not put in such a way to actually try to learn other answers to consider. So I won't address them. I have learned that doesn't do any good and only causes people to become riled up.

I simply won't "engage" in a conversation with you personaly because that simply isn't what you are trying to do. If you were offering to share ideas thoughts and beliefs with consideration and respect for what other people think and believe, than I would quite enjoy the conversation. And let me speak it again: I'm not offended, it's not a touchy subject because quite frankly- I don't care what you think about what I think. Your ideas and opinions are your own- they don't threaten me in the slightest. LOL

I have "engaged" with people whom "debate" as you do before- and there is no debate. There is one person trying to change another person without actually "listening" and "thinking" about what the other said- this kind of debate is full of question after question fired off specifically designed to rile a person.

In an offering of proof, I submitt your own words:

KERRY I did not intend to offend. But if you feel too afraid to engage I'll never know why you got upset.
Why daren't you engage what was it that touched nerve?

that is a "challenge" as opposed to an "offering" to "discuss". Your choice of words is severely lacking in respect and I don't play that way. You touched no nerve dearheart, rather once again, simply prooved my point. I'm smiling, not frowning.

Re-read this post and you will see I have answered your questions.

With kindness -
K

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:26 am

Hi,

See Religion is a far more volatile(sp) subject than most.

They were right

I wonder why that is

Be Good People

RK

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:56 pm

Kerry
I haven't just studied Christianity, I have tried to learn as much about the major religions as I could and my first real interest was in the more Eastern Religions. Hinduism and Buddhism......from these I became aware that there must be an effort made by an individual to increase their spirituality, although they could follow the rules of a religion, greater efforts were required to achieve something more...the goal of these religions is enlightenment, a sort of total awareness. In these religions much of the language has a hidden meaning, like a puzzle and designed to make the mind think in a different way....an obvious example would be the Koans used in Japanese Zen Buddhism. I continue to study these religions, but I became interested in other stuff. Islam for example and the Writings and practises of the " Sufis" the whirling and panting dervishes the Mevlevi and the Naqsbandi.........although in most of these cases I have had to content myself with reading, rather than studying directly with a " Master".
From the Sufis I became aware that they used a hidden language to describe certain things.......They talked of being " intoxicated" and drinking Fine Wine.......yet Islam forbids this, so obviously this language meant something else. Some have interpreted it as spiritual ecstacy

Learning of this, and after continued reading on the subject I discovered the writings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, and a pupil of Ouspensky called Maurice Nicholls, who wrote a series of books called the commentaries ( On the work of these two gentlemen) the theme of a hidden meaning in Christianity and indeed all religions was readily apparent. Nicholl went on to write a book on just this

The Green Language or the " Language of the Birds" is a European language that talks of esoterica. It is medieval french mixed with Latin and other tongues and developed in the 15th Century. It is the language that Nostradamus wrote his Quatraines in.Check out
http://zelator.topcities.com/
This was a book that interested me greatly, if you check the site below you will also hear, on realplayer, an interview with David Ovason. He has made a study of Nostradamus, and was approached on his views about certain popular writings purported to be about 9/11 from Nostardamus...which he concluded were fake........although he does point to what he considers are the real Quatrains.
http://21stcenturyradio.com/21audioarchives.html
The whole subject and groups of subjects continues to fascinate me, Christianity's influence on the Roman Empire, the split of that Empire becoming Byzantine the development of the Eastern church, the coptic pope
etc,etc......some I believe, some I don't

it is a difficult area to investigate, because there is a lot of wishfull thinking from many of the new age writers ( I won't give examples

) ......also worth checking out is the Bible code, books 1 and 2.......I enjoyed them both, but believed neither

take care.

NEB · Post by **NEB** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:52 am

A statement like "Jesus is a myth" is designed to be inflamatory. It has the same validity as any claim denying the existence of a historical figure. And, of course, given the passionate nature of religion in general, one is bound to elicit a reaction.

I, for one, would like to see that claim backed up.

Now, a statement claiming that Jesus' being the son of god, etc. is mythical would be a valid opinion.

Insofar as the study of religion and spirituality is concerned, there are some fascinating threads that seem to run through many of the world's religions. Take the TaoTeChing, for instance:
"The Name that can be named is not the eternal Name" has always been one of my favorites.

nb

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:41 am

Hi NEB,

I really do not mean my statement that Jesus is a myth to be inflamatory.
Because I believe it to be fact.
He is not an historical figure on say the way that Napolean is.

As I seem to remember saying on an earlier post. I've studied this. Look into the historiacl truth.
the scribes of the day never mentioned the son of god was around then.
don't you think they would've.
there is loads more to back up what I say.
but what is the point you get riled and think i'm being blasfamous.

I can't be I'm not a christian.

RK

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 1:37 pm

regkray wrote: I really do not mean my statement that Jesus is a myth to be inflamatory.
Because I believe it to be fact.

And NEB stated that (s)he would like to see that claim backed up. Otherwise, it is just an inflamatatory statement of your opinion.

I've studied this. Look into the historiacl truth.

Good, then you should already know where to go for the sources and cites to back up your position...

He is not an historical figure on say the way that Napolean is.

... the scribes of the day never mentioned the son of god was around then.
don't you think they would've.

Actually... No. There are records of people being crucified and those indicate that there was a crucificion of a "Jesus of Nazareth"... He was given no more mention than the two thieves who were crucified with him. There was no more "official" recognition of him being the Son of God than there would be now if someone started walking around and preaching the same.
In fact, the Jewish religion (also contrary to the Roman empire at the time), while now recognizing the existence of Jesus, doesn't recognize him as the Son of God.

there is loads more to back up what I say.
but what is the point you get riled and think i'm being blasfamous.

I can't be I'm not a christian.

First of all, as previously stated, you claim to have all of this information, but you aren't really backing up your words with sources, cites or facts... it seems that only opinion and (inflamatory) statements are made.

Second of all, I re-read this thread and I can't find where anyone has gotten "riled" OR accused you of being blasphemous. In this thread/discussion, I don't think anyone has made any specific religious requirements, so it doesn't appear that your "not {being} a christian" makes any difference. Calling people blasphemous, infidels, or otherwise throwing gasoline on a delicate subject are things that have up-to-now been avoided in this very open, honest and sharing thread.

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:11 pm

Thank you Panther-

And WOW J! Great resources! Library and Borders call! Hey I have a question for you- do you have any info- or know where I can find more info on the "women's" religion in Japan? There is a particular religion where the women lead, etc etc- I've heard mention of it a few places but haven't gotten much further. Any suggestions? I too have studied major religions- going so far as to attend some of thier (performences LOL kidding) their Masses- or meetings etc- wanted to get a "feel" for their true intent. Wasn't real pretty. And though I mentioned that I love Sylvia Browne- If you read her book- "Life on the Other Side" or something close to that- It's goes WAYYYYY out there. Some of her books are grgeat but I have a tougher time reading her "opinions" about life on "the other side". The way I see stuff like that- is that if people have some peculiar but spectacular gift- there probably is a bit of "nuttiness" or craziness to balance it out. Anger maybe- OR some kind of trauma in their past to provoak "The Wizards First Rule". (Terry Goodkind- right up there with J.R.R. Tolkien- incredibly gifted fantasy writer)- anyway- The Wizard's First Rule- People will sometimes believe the worst if they are afraid it is true or want it to be true. J- if you ever read novels for entertainment- not just intellectual books- and if you enjoied The Lord of the Rings- YOU MUST read Terry Goodkind. Have to start with the first book though- "Wizards First Rule or it doesn't make sense.

Maybe Reg will listen to Panther. LOL-We can only hope LOL

K

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:03 pm

REG
You may very well think Jesus is a myth....in the same sense as " Robin Hood" is a myth or legend.
there is also good reason for him to not be recorded. He mixed with unsavoury characters, Judas Iscarriat was an Iscarrii, a known revolutionary fighting the Romans, it is also believed that Jesus was an Essene, a mystical sect of Judhaism. These were not the popular folk of the day....if Osama Bin Laden is remembered in 100 years I'll be surprised ( No comparison intended).
there are accounts of Jesus however. By the Jewish Historian Josephus, check out.
http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm
or also the homepage, good reading

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/home.htm
Kerry
Can't say that I have heard of that religion........Women tend to lead in Wicca

.......might be a bit heavy for some folks while talking about Christianity

Try reading " The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the unbeliever" if you liked Lord of the rings

One other thing that folks might find interesting, just to show how facts get distorted....ever remember that lovely poem " Desiderata"...when I first saw it published it said that it was found in an old Benedictine Chapel in the 14th century, later I found out that it was written by an American poet Max Ehrmann in the 20's.
" Go placidly amid the noise and haste

"
http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:22 pm

Kerry,

From a "woman's religion" perspective, check out the book (IIRC) "When God was a Woman".

As far as Wicca is concerned... I have very good friends... great, loving, caring, wonderful, kind people who are Wiccan... And she is a high priestess. Couldn't find nicer folks... (And, yes I've done lots of learning/reading/Q&A of that as well.)

On Wizard's First Rule... Last I recall, the Sword of Truth series is up to Rule #7. Wizard's First Rule is actually: "People are Stupid. (Why? Because...) People can be made to believe any lie because they want to believe it is true, or because they are afraid that it is true."

Hmmmmm... Interesting.

For recommendations of other books/series you might enjoy or know...

I've always liked the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (not his real name... nice man).

Take care and be good to each other...

NEB · Post by **NEB** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:47 pm

REGKRAY,

Well, Panther's riposte pretty much says what I would have said to reply to you. Remember, I am speaking of the historical valididty of the existence of Jesus as a living human being. I was not referring to him as anything more than that. The man is pretty well proven to have lived on earth, as far as I understand.

They have unearthed some of the temple Jesus preached in ... the one in Jerusalem. They have digitally mapped the residence(s) of some of the temple priests, if not even Caiaphus himself...(who gave the order to have Jesus arrested initially). There is quite a bit of historical record about Jesus, mainly because there is so much interest in him.

One doesn't have to be a Christain to acknowledge these things. For example, I am not a Muslim, however I acknowledge the existence of Mohammed.

Nobody's calling anyone a blasphemer, I was just challenging your claim is all.

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:16 pm

smiling at Panther- As well as being some of the nicest people, there are some whom are as bad as some "religious zealots" being "anti" as opposed to "loving" but most Wiccan/Pagan people are pretty damn cool in my eyes.

If I find out the name J- I'll let you know- It's specific to Japan or maybe China.

I can't get enough of Terry Goodkind at the moment. Yes that's the Wizards First rule LOL. Funny how a fiction work can hold so much truth eh? The SOT books are wonderful- but does he also have another series or other writings? People referr to TSOT as if there are other books as well. Just found his web site today! YEEE HAH!

There is historical evidence that a man named Jesus whom was reverred so to speak did in fact exsist. Thing is, you can find "evidense" of anything if you look hard enough. There is "evidense" of a great flood- (Grand Canyon and fossil records which show human prints overlapping dinasoar.) yet people also have evidense of "evolution""- which the Christian people don't agree with.

Honestly I believe Reg himself actually said it best though in another post- it's about intent. Your motivations for doing and believing whatever it is that you do, and what you do with it- honestly I think that's what the whole story of Jesus is supposed to be about. Sermon on the Mount I think it was- then his death- un-conditional love.

When it comes to practicing a religion vs being spiritual- it's in my view- saying something similar to, if you like applesauce, you'll love frruit in general- bad example with fruit in general meaning spirituality. There are lots of ways to be spiritual- relious practice is one of those ways. That's all I think at any rate.

Kay · Post by **Kay** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:13 pm

To get this back to MA relevance, I absolutely believe studying martial arts is a spiritual undertaking (my humble opinion, of course!). But only in the way that everything you do is a spiritual undertaking. I believe that we're spiritual beings, that we just aren't aware of it all the time. And for those that don't believe in God, we're nothing but energy held together. Every cell of our body depends on atoms and subatomic particles being held together in a very mystical way. Its roughly explained by science (physics) and I won't try to go into vibrational rates and atomic energy levels because I don't know enough to sound lucid. But to me, that says there's a God. Our very thoughts are electrical signals that bounce between synapses in our brain. Doesn't that sound miraculous? There's motion and vibration at verying rates in everthing we touch (even that seemingly still table or rock), in the very air that we breathe (oxygen molecues are diatomic, meaning they don't exist easily by themselves, they are usually joined together with another oxygen molecule and that's due to energetic attractions, and yes I know there's other gasses hanging around out there with the oxygen in the air, its just an example). If we are truely conscious of this all the time, we'd be in a constant state of awe.
Again, back to MA's. Accessing Ki/Chi is basically vibrating at a higher level, I think. Isn't that the essence of what we're training so hard for? I know, defending ourselves, too. But I never plan on getting into a fight (best laid plans...). But tapping into the Ki, that state without thought where everything just happens perfectly, doesn't only happen for martial artists. Musicians entering the zone while playing, writers when they say "the words just flowed from me", or a painter with the same experience, a person from any religion in rapt prayer. I think its all the same state, sort of. Somebody in this thread said they don't believe in the "many paths to the same place" philosophy. I do. I consider myself a Metaphysical Catholic, whatever that means. Don't ask, I can't explain because I'm obviously not a theologian. I just know what seems right to me. That's the beauty of the U.S., I can believe what I want and you can believe what you want. As my mother-in-law would say, "that's why they make chocolate AND vanilla ice cream..."

Kay
PS I know some wonderful Wiccans, too!