Abusing Uechi-ryu

[Van Canna]

Most self defense situations cannot be compared to an UFC fight.

That is not the argument.

Here we have Ryan, an Okinawan trained “traditionalist”

Ryan Parker was actually a poster to this
>very newsgroup rec.martial-arts, for about a year prior to his UFC fight.
>He was one of these classical Okinawan karate guys.

Who applies his PPCT sequential strikes O’Doom to the neck of his opponent, and, after he gets choked out, he wonders why they did not work. After all we all saw Siddle at camp use his pointed thumb strikes to people’s necks.

Why did they not work?

What would make those pressure points strikes any more effective by Ryan in a street fight as opposed to the UFC fight?

Why is it that we don’t have ppct’s proponents enter UFC or NHB events, and knock out the opponents with sequential taps?

And I don’t mean sticking pointy thingies in eyeballs or nostrils, and even so there would be no guarantee of winning or making it out of the ring alive, once crossing that line.

It just makes sense not to spend 100% of your time on one part of the force continuum when life isn't going to get you there except in the one in 10,000 situation at most. While I'm working on my thrust-o-doom TM , I'm also working on verbal skills and investigating heavy weaponry (remember our previous discussions?).

I don’t where you get this from my posts..Again, it is a matter of grasping the argument.

Why is it that lethal force trainers, such as John Farnam, in the training Maloney and I attended at LFI, will allow you to use the weaver stance, and manipulate the .45 weapon’s slide release lever with your right thumb [albeit reluctantly] when doing target games, and teach only the isosceles stance, and the grabbing of the slide with the left hand, pulling it to the rear sharply and then letting it slam into battery, feeding a new round in a tactical reload under stress? This should be self-explanatory.

BTW, I disagree with you on the Muay Thai. While you see different lines and angles of power, I see the same thing. There is absolutely no match I know of on this martial earth for a Uechika with well-trained hands.

I’ll make it easy to understand for you Bill. The famous Dennis Passaretti became certified in Muay Thai after having trained in Thailand with a famous master.

He runs a Muay Thai dojo on Federal hill, Providence Rhode Island. He is still a good friend of mine, and recently Tony Licalzi, Maloney, and I visited his dojo.

Next time you come down, let me know, and I will arrange for you to work out in one of his classes, so you can understand their training and lines of force mechanism. And if you feel up to it, we can arrange a friendly match, so we can show him how there is no match on earth for a Uechi-ka with well trained hands.

[RACastanet]

Bill said: "Rich showed an interesting photo in Iraq where a soldier was leading a civilian from point A to point B while holding him in a wrist/finger hyperextended position. That move required some dexterity, and it was appropriate for use with the TV cameras filming a U.S. Marine dealing with an unruly civilian."

Here is the photo of a Marine executing the wrist lock come along:




It would be difficult to apply to a struggling opponent. To get their attention it would be appropriate to apply a 'softening' technique to a pressure point or soft tissue area. Once in place, this is an excellent controlling technique.

Rich

[Van Canna]

That is very good Rich.

Club bouncers are also trained in this type of "come along"
When the situation calls for it.

But if a threat needs to be stopped because he is about to kill you, that technique would never work, and the fine motor skills would break down.

It all depends on the level of threat and stress factor involved. the trick is to be able to learn the difference, as the Marines, no doubt have learned.

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

One data point does not a trend make.

It all depends on the level of threat and stress factor involved. the trick is to be able to learn the difference.

That's exactly my point, Van. So you see, we agree in spite of our best efforts.

I’ll make it easy to understand for you Bill. The famous Dennis Passaretti became certified in Muay Thai after having trained in Thailand with a famous master.

He runs a Muay Thai dojo on Federal hill, Providence Rhode Island. He is still a good friend of mine, and recently Tony Licalzi, Maloney, and I visited his dojo.

Next time you come down, let me know, and I will arrange for you to work out in one of his classes, so you can understand their training and lines of force mechanism. And if you feel up to it, we can arrange a friendly match, so we can show him how there is no match on earth for a Uechi-ka with well trained hands.

Yawn... You know... I was down on the ground at camp getting dirty with one of the best UFC fighters in the business - mixing it up with a man half my age. And I came back for more the next day. Where were the other "cyber warriors," watching me with their arms folded?

Done my time in the ring, too! Didn't see other martial artists there...

This isn't about proving who is right and who is wrong, or winning an argument. This is about complete training. It's about doing everything you say is important in fighting, and more. It's about dedicating your life to perfecting the entire force continuum. It's about looking where others say we can't any more, and training just to see why or why not.

Nice journey, by the way! And I'm damn proud to have a wonderful group of people to work with.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Yawn... You know... I was down on the ground at camp getting dirty with one of the best UFC fighters in the business - mixing it up with a man half my age. And I came back for more the next day. Where were the other "cyber warriors," watching me with their arms folded?

Bill, you can be a good comedian, we all love you.

I remember reading this before on your forum, it gave me a smile.

I also recall your writing that the people who "knock" kumites,

1. do not understand them

2.Cannot perform them well.

I figured that was a jab directed at me, but I let it go.


Well, Yawn…here are several of the “kumite Klutzes” you refer to:

Maloney, has never had any use for them, and when developing his feared PKA fighters, the first thing he did was to dump the kumites.

Then Rabesa wrote this

To teach kumite with an understanding of all its aspects……… When you have been to “the wars” as the sixties tournaments have been called, you are speaking from experience, and not because you think it will work. There is no more important path than having been there. Although your prearranged kumites are good for certain things, they do not help much here. Most prearranged kumite become too rhythmic. It’s too easy to ready oneself for each attack. If you do a non -rhythmic, no-count prearranged kumite, you will still know what type of attack is coming and where it is to be directed.

When you talk to a fighter who has fought for many years and one who just talks, you’ll discover a world of difference.

And “those” among the Kumite “plodders ”, certainly must include Bob Campbell, after all Bob has made his position clear in a message to the open forums:

DEAR GEORGE, WITH DUE RESPECT TO EACH TEACHERS OWN PREFERENCES AND GOALS WITHIN A TEACHING PROGRAM FOR HIS / HER OWN DOJO...... MY COMMENTS ON THE DAN KUMITE ARE MY OWN AND NOT INTENDED TO INFLUENCE ANYONE ELSE NOR PASS JUDGMENT ON ANY OTHER TEACHER / S
THE DAN KUMITE IN ITS PRESENT FORM HAS MUCH TO BE DESIRED.
IT LACKS IMAGINATION. THE DRILL DOES LITTLE OR NOTHING TO PROMOTE UECHI KARATE SKILL'S.
THE DRILL IS SO MECHANICAL THAT IT REDUCES ONE'S ABILITY TO GAIN TIMING & DISTANCE SKILLS ABOVE THE LEVEL OF AN ICKY RANK STUDENT. I BELIEVE THE DAN KUMITE SHOULD BE CALLED A KYU KUMITE. IT OFFERS LITTLE IMPROVEMENT FOR MORE ADVANCED STUDENTS.
I DO NOT TEACH THIS DRILL ANY LONGER IN ITS PRESENT FORMAT.
NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE REGARDING MY VIEW ON THIS KUMITE.

BEST REGARDS
BOB CAMPBELL

We all love you Bill for the way you make us smile.

[Bill Glasheen]

No arguments concerning your quotes from Art and Bob - two of my favorites.

My best, Van!

- Bill

[CANDANeh]

Maloney, has never had any use for them, and when developing his feared PKA fighters, the first thing he did was to dump the kumites.

Those guys were the reason I selected Uechi (in all fairness it was the only game in town anyway), watched a class and found the "contolled aggression" (in lack of better words) appealling. One or two had missing Gi sleeves and others had shabby repairs to thiers ( men did not sew well in the 70`s) . A fellow named Clayton Hickey seemed unable to feel pain and I was amazed at the pain he would inflict and they all still seemed to like him. Any pressure point application would have only given some of those guys time to put together a nasty wallop in my opinion. In 89 I asked one of them to be my corner man when I kickboxed and I heard " Stay up! stay up! Hit him, hit him!" throughout the fight... Dan kumite or any kumite I do not recall seeing until I was a brown belt but that is if my memory serves me well, personnally I enjoy them and for me there is benifit. Kansiwa Bunkai and Seisan Bunkai were popular and to this day I feel Kanshiwa Bunkai is under rated and not used enough as a training tool, never mind the tech. part of it but the limited stress it can produce if done aggressively is a good way four 4 guys/girls to have fun and push themselves a little. First time I was involved in one, I received a side kick to the stomach for standing too close in posting and went home with a sleeve to sew on along with hair still standing up on the back of my neck, I couldn`t wait to join in again.

[gmattson]

DEAR GEORGE, WITH DUE RESPECT TO EACH TEACHERS OWN PREFERENCES AND GOALS WITHIN A TEACHING PROGRAM FOR HIS / HER OWN DOJO...... MY COMMENTS ON THE DAN KUMITE ARE MY OWN AND NOT INTENDED TO INFLUENCE ANYONE ELSE NOR PASS JUDGMENT ON ANY OTHER TEACHER / S

[gmattson]

Maloney, has never had any use for them, and when developing his feared PKA fighters, the first thing he did was to dump the kumites.

I've attended many Campbell and Maloney seminars. They have never ridiculed the pre-arranged kumite drills or any other Uechi training practices. Their genius comes from a fertile creative process that equals any of the masters of old, credited with creating fighting systems.

Instead of forming their own styles, which they are capable of doing, they elected to contribute positive elements to Uechi-ryu. They did this modification in an evolutionalry manner instead of a way that would alienate their friends and fellow Uechi practitioners. They continually modify and evolve their Uechi-ryu. I would be surprised to see Jimmy or Bob where they didn't relish in showing everyone their latest technique or discovery. I've never seen or heard them "knock" what other teachers are doing, or make them feel as though they were inferior martial artist because they didn't agree with what they happens to be doing at that moment.

Although they may prefer their own drills and pre-arannged methods over what many of us do, anyone who says they don't do pre-arranged drills aren't really paying attention. (Check out Maloney's "New Wave" Uechi tapes, 1 & II) I've attending many Rabesa classes and I don't recall many that did not contain pre-arranged drills of one kind or another.

[Van Canna]

George,

I agree. And in posting this my intention is not to disparage Kumites. I am on record that kumites are an essential component, along with more advanced versions of them, including reactive work, such as Rick Wilson"s variation.

But to make blanket statements, such as "they wouldn't understand and cannot perform them well" affecting seniors the caliber of Maloney, Rabesa, and Campbell, is a bit presumptous.

[Van Canna]

There are other excellent practitioners who have gone on record questioning kumites, such as Rick Wilson, Laird, and Dana, just to name a few.

Not very nice to paint them with the same brush.

[gmattson]

"they wouldn't understand and cannot perform them well"

and similar comments are unfair and falls under the same type of negative commentary I dislike so much.

Just who in the hell are "they"? Yes, the person doesn't name anyone, so perhaps falls above the line of forum etiquette, but just barely so.

[gmattson]

Here we have Ryan, an Okinawan trained “traditionalist”
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Parker was actually a poster to this very newsgroup rec.martial-arts, for about a year prior to his UFC fight.
He was one of these classical Okinawan karate guys.

Who applies his PPCT sequential strikes O’Doom to the neck of his opponent, and, after he gets choked out, he wonders why they did not work. After all we all saw Siddle at camp use his pointed thumb strikes to people’s necks.

Why did they not work?

What would make those pressure points strikes any more effective by Ryan in a street fight as opposed to the UFC fight?

Why is it that we don’t have ppct’s proponents enter UFC or NHB events, and knock out the opponents with sequential taps?

And I don’t mean sticking pointy thingies in eyeballs or nostrils, and even so there would be no guarantee of winning or making it out of the ring alive, once crossing that line.

I answered this post by saying that I was impressed that Ryan was able to actually use his pressure point, fine motor skills training while under extreme stress and while paired up with someone who is not an "average" bad guy.

This comment was made in response to the many posts, stating that a trained martial artist would not be able to use his/her training under stress and would rely on gross motor movements that probably had little to do with martial arts. The fact that Ryan's techniques didn't work doesn't surprise me. . . I would have been more surprised had he made them work against an opponent tough enough to enter a UFC event.

Instead of dwelling on the fact that Ryan was totally outmatched, lets look at what enabled him to actually use what his traditional training taught him. Could it have been the confidence he had in himself that his martial art training gave him? A confidence that most people would lose in an actual fight. . . causing them to revert to primitive flailing?

Evan Pantazi has stated on these forums that his Kyusho techniques has been tested on the streets, under more normal and usual conditions and they worked. This information supposedly provided by police officers and other LEO who train with the Kyusho group.

I doubt that Evan or any pressure point believer, would recommend training in this art alone. He would probably agree with many of us, that a strong conditioning program along with senerio training of some kind and a realistic "fallback" strategy of simple and effective gross motor techniques is desirable.

The mind is a strange and wonderful mechanism. We can be brainwashed into believing anything.

The martial arts is based on a program of self-defense techniques, repeated until they become part of the individual. The martial arts build confidence in the individual and history is filled with confident people, lacking much physical talent, being able to perform impossible feats.

People can be negatively brainwashed as well. Tell someone that what he/she is doing won't work will plant a seed of destruction within the individual that will result in failure for sure.

A good teacher/coach will build confidence at all time. They will provide the tools to get the job done and hopefully will not create a bully in the process. I don't know of any sport where you train a student for failure! The martial arts has become quite popular because of this confidence building ability, balanced by all those other qualities non-marital artist make fun of. . . that allow the student to live life to the fullest, without constantly having to look over their shoulders or seeing killers in every stranger.

Without those other qualities, the training being performed is just exercise.

In life, each of us may have to look death in the eye at any time. How they react will have be a combination of their present physical-emotional health, their ability and very importantly, their confidence in themselves.

[Van Canna]

George,

I can understand how all of us, passionate in our individual beliefs over such a long time in our endeavor, can get emotionally high-jacked and say or write words that might offend.

No one is above this; I don’t care who he is.

The ones who never get into trouble here are the ones who never argue their beliefs or are afraid to post, and there are reasons why they fear to get involved.

The active participants who write thousands upon thousands of words are more at risk of “ticking” someone off..It is all in the game; the “human factor” of the forums, and we do better than most groups out there. Some of us spend countless, thankless hours doing research that we bring to the attention of our readers who always benefit from the “exploration” of new or different ideas, positive or negative.

Nothing is perfect however, and short of outright “boorish” behavior and insolent personal attacks, people should be given ample latitude in voicing their beliefs with whatever writing skills they possess, without fear of infringing on forum etiquette. This is one complaint I have heard from prospective contributors, who do an “about face”..

That is what stimulates thinking and introspective on this very important segment of martial art students’ lives. The beliefs and personal arguments and criticism of self, style, teachers, and training methods are still there, were always there, before the advent of these forums.

If we all agreed, and “stroked” each other constantly, these forums would be a colossal bore.

So we make allowances, and we “kiss and make up” and move on, as we have done in the past.

I could take this “exchange” to excruciating details on the kumite perceptions of many seniors, on what some really believe, in spite of how it might look, but I won’t, because usually these discussions lead nowhere but to bruised feelings and friendships, and nothing is worth looking and feeling that foolish.

[Van Canna]

George,

I agree with the thrust of your post, however a few personal observations.

Confidence is much stronger in individuals who have a thorough understanding of the physical and emotional make up of martial arts training running the gamut from “personal best” to survival in a violent encounter.

It is when they are led down “primrose path” as I am fond of saying that we destroy their confidence and cut them off a lifetime of productive accomplishments in the practice of martial arts.

This is really a no brainer. Recall the irate father of the original Norwood sensei, who had brainwashed the student to believe his “sanchin” was inviolate in a street fight. Recall that sensei would go into a supermarket wearing a gi, and throw kicks at cans on shelves. Remember? Who do we blame for this?

So the kid feels invincible, much like the black belts Allen Moulton wrote about, a few years ago, who upon making shodan, went to the combat zone to try out their “invincibility”

So the brainwashed student, gets the crap kicked out of him in a street fight, and drops out of sight. I take over the dojo, and call him [all ex students], to try and get him back, his father on the phone almost tore my head off saying we taught crap and should be arrested for putting his son at risk.

Had he been schooled to understand what really happens in the street, physically and mentally, such as when in the grip of the “dump” etc, the beating would not have mentally destroyed him, and Uechi-Ryu might have retained him.

I think this is the responsibility of a good teacher, to “dole out” the “Bad with the good”
Which will result in a more educated, safe, and confident student.

Later..