Gentlemen,
This really is about personal preference. As each individual determines up to what extent of fitness he or she desires to attain.
In my old dojo, prior to sparring class we spent a good 15 to 20 minutes warming up with stretching, a few laps around the floor , (it was a good size dojo) some leg lifts and situps as part of our training regime for sparring class.
Cardio condition was important as we often fought continuosly for minutes at a time, broke for a minute rest, grabbed another partner and continued.
When sparring intensely in this manor, one will notice the importance of being able to substain endurance level. Without such, one must bow out early with the embarracement of being "out of shape".
However, our other classes did not mandate such pre-class warm ups. As Junbi-undo and Hojo-undo were sufficient drills acompanied by some ocassional supplimentary stretching.These classes did not require the same need of fitness.
The instructor of any dojo or class sets the tone for whatever level of fitness he/she determines fit in that dojo. There is no "certification" required to do so. Give me a break ! People in these classes are there to learn karate . Some gear towards fighting which in it's own accord, calls for a higher level of fitness in general. Anyone who has done such, know this.
Certified fitness instructors are found in private trainning and in Gyms etc. They are certified because they are doing this for a living. It requires such.
Think not that anyone needs to attain certification if he/she decides to incorperate some sort of fitness standard within ones dojo or group. As for a group and/or organization, it only would call for a majority decission to adapt whatever they see fit.
I have not seen such take place in any dojo's or organizations i have been involved in. However, that is not to say that it does not exsist.
Simply put, one has the choice to join or leave any group based upon their dissagreements with their policies.
Just another point of view.
Repectfully,
Uechi and Fitness Standards
Moderator: Available
Bill, I'd agree that the Okinawans didn't have a Gold's gym, and so we can't go by a direct comparison of fitness ideals then and now. That's in part why I am always considering the time tested "standards," and whether they might be improved by revisions. The old concept of fitness as need only be revealed in a 45 second kata is one of these. (when I say I revisit the old standards, I don't mean to imply I'm in some high and mighty position to judge masters of any age. Rather, I like to think about stuff like this largely because I learn in the process by coming up with my thoughts and hearing others).
I also agree that Martial fitness requires more skills than the three i mentioned, but since we were talking about fitness as something separable from martial arts, and different from those martial skills that allow us combat timing and impact with our blows, I didn't mention the other martial attributes.
Benzo, what you've accomplished took a ton of hard work, and represents a commendable achievement for your health (you know best whether it's helped your Uechi and that impression might be really useful here). That journey you apparently undertook on your own is exactly what I'm suggesting an instructor pose to a student who needed it. Since the fitness prescription I proposed was relative to an individual's starting point, you've already done anything I would ever have an instructor propose to a student anyway.. good work! I bet it was done largely outside the dojo, too, without any class time on some exercise machine. That's the kind of homework I'm doing outside of class with weights--doesn't detract from the classroom experience at all.
I also agree that Martial fitness requires more skills than the three i mentioned, but since we were talking about fitness as something separable from martial arts, and different from those martial skills that allow us combat timing and impact with our blows, I didn't mention the other martial attributes.
Benzo, what you've accomplished took a ton of hard work, and represents a commendable achievement for your health (you know best whether it's helped your Uechi and that impression might be really useful here). That journey you apparently undertook on your own is exactly what I'm suggesting an instructor pose to a student who needed it. Since the fitness prescription I proposed was relative to an individual's starting point, you've already done anything I would ever have an instructor propose to a student anyway.. good work! I bet it was done largely outside the dojo, too, without any class time on some exercise machine. That's the kind of homework I'm doing outside of class with weights--doesn't detract from the classroom experience at all.
--Ian
Flexibility, strength and stamina
Are we training for flexibility, sterngth and stamina?
Yes, you say.
Well, then, I gues we are training gymnasts, power lifters and marathon runners. Well then, why shouldn't we also train archers, kayakers and mountain climbers?
We are training in Uechi karate which has a specific set of skills that needs to be mastered in order to progress through the dan ranks.
If you have 8 to 10 hrs. to train like a boxer or a Marine and still have the time to engage in all of the specific activty exercises and drills that is great.
Most of us just don't have that time so why not use the time that you do have to train to work specific activity exercises/drills?
10 back to back Seisans seems to do the trick. Jiyu kumite builds stamina. As for flexibility would any of you really kick to someone's head in a real fight or would you rather take out the knees or groin?
I can tell you from experience a toe kick to the femoral nerve/artery is absolutely devasting (my opponent was knocked out flat in no time at all and could barely stand up for about 10 min.).
Using the training jars builds strength and so does the practice of Sanchin. Do we really need to do power-lifting to achieve proper Sanchin form and strength?
Mike
Yes, you say.
Well, then, I gues we are training gymnasts, power lifters and marathon runners. Well then, why shouldn't we also train archers, kayakers and mountain climbers?
We are training in Uechi karate which has a specific set of skills that needs to be mastered in order to progress through the dan ranks.
If you have 8 to 10 hrs. to train like a boxer or a Marine and still have the time to engage in all of the specific activty exercises and drills that is great.
Most of us just don't have that time so why not use the time that you do have to train to work specific activity exercises/drills?
10 back to back Seisans seems to do the trick. Jiyu kumite builds stamina. As for flexibility would any of you really kick to someone's head in a real fight or would you rather take out the knees or groin?
I can tell you from experience a toe kick to the femoral nerve/artery is absolutely devasting (my opponent was knocked out flat in no time at all and could barely stand up for about 10 min.).
Using the training jars builds strength and so does the practice of Sanchin. Do we really need to do power-lifting to achieve proper Sanchin form and strength?
Mike
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benzocaine
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Ian,
Thank you.
I mainly lost most of my weight through training Uechi and denying my tastebuds certain flavors.. Of course I have done pushups crunches bag work. Every Uechi workout involves 5- 10 seisans back to back, and the more intensity you put in the more you get out of it. I also get to keep my Uech "hard wired" into me via muscle memory.
I have an on off relationship with weight training. I do admit that it enchances everything we do in Uechi Ryu. It's probably the most efficient excersixe their is. Heck, if you do circuit training you can obtain aerobic and anaerobic benefits. Heck.. to be honest, since this thread started I've rekindled my affair with weights, maybee the relationship will last this time
I've also started running some too (something else I am on and off with). But no matter what Uechi is always there. I love it, and my time is precious, so when it comes down to go to the gym or practice Uechi in the living room Uechi wins.
But like I've said.. set the standard and people will struggle to acheive it.
Take care folks.
Thank you.
I mainly lost most of my weight through training Uechi and denying my tastebuds certain flavors.. Of course I have done pushups crunches bag work. Every Uechi workout involves 5- 10 seisans back to back, and the more intensity you put in the more you get out of it. I also get to keep my Uech "hard wired" into me via muscle memory.
I have an on off relationship with weight training. I do admit that it enchances everything we do in Uechi Ryu. It's probably the most efficient excersixe their is. Heck, if you do circuit training you can obtain aerobic and anaerobic benefits. Heck.. to be honest, since this thread started I've rekindled my affair with weights, maybee the relationship will last this time
I've also started running some too (something else I am on and off with). But no matter what Uechi is always there. I love it, and my time is precious, so when it comes down to go to the gym or practice Uechi in the living room Uechi wins.But like I've said.. set the standard and people will struggle to acheive it.
Take care folks.
Mike, I don't know why thinking that a healthy body is aerobically fit, strong, and flexible mandates us to do gymnastics or any of the other stuff you mentioned. There's nothing about what we've said that supports a drive to train us in archery either. That just doesn't follow. Do you seriously believe that those attributes are irrelevant to Uechi? Here's what I've seen:
1) People who have to take time outs (or standing breaks, where they go thru the motions with no focus) during a vigorouos hojo undo, stretch of katas, or a few rounds of sparring. They aren't aerobically fit enough to get the most out of their class. That's a problem. That problem has an easy solution: get more fit. I never said they had to run a marathon, and your suggestion that they do a bunch of seisans is well within the guidelines I proposed. Often, these people have a deficit large enough that it won't be corrected in a few classes a week so the instructor (in my mind) should or at least could prompt the student to get more fit outside (jog, bike, or just do more uechi as the student chooses). What's so wrong about that?
2) People who are so inflexible they can't kick waist high if their partner is a wee bit taller, who can't kick quickly because of their stiffness, and who are hard to do partner drills with because of their stiffness. They aren't flexible enough to get the most out of their class. that's a problem. That problem has a solution: get more flexible. I never said they had to do a floor routine. Often these people have a deficit large enough it's not corrected by routine stretching in class so the instructor, in my mind, should or could prompt the student to stretch more often outside of class. What's so wrong about that?
3) People who are skinny enough that their strength limited their abililty to strike with good force and compete with larger classmates or theoretical bad guys. They're strength deficit was large enough it was holding back their karate. That's a problem, and that problem has a solution: get stronger. I never said they had to do powerllifting. OFten these people have a deficit large enough it's not corrected by several classes of justr karate a week, so the instructor, in my mind, should or could prompt the student to develop strength outside of class--that could be pushups etc but simple weights routines are safe and easy and make better athletes and karate students. What's so wrong about that?
Benzo feels improved after his fitness work, and I feel improved after tackling some weightlifting. I for one am no powerlifter and I'm still, at 6'3", just under 170. No one is proposing going crazy on this.
I feel it's also important to point out that while we need not kick someone in the head, we feel in Uechi that overtraining is often good. We would never expect someone to deliberately eat strikes aimed at them, yet many body condition to defend against the possibility they're going to take blows. And it's easier to kick the groin if you can comfortably kick the ribs.
Strength, fitness and flexibility absolutely affect people's ability to do their own martial art, to defend themselves, to participate for other students' benefits, and to represent the art. If a student has a deficit that could be improved with a prescription for reasonable extracurricular exercise (that is, no synchronized swimming or olympic trampoline), why shouldn't instructors know how to provide some basic advice and why shouldn't they give it?
1) People who have to take time outs (or standing breaks, where they go thru the motions with no focus) during a vigorouos hojo undo, stretch of katas, or a few rounds of sparring. They aren't aerobically fit enough to get the most out of their class. That's a problem. That problem has an easy solution: get more fit. I never said they had to run a marathon, and your suggestion that they do a bunch of seisans is well within the guidelines I proposed. Often, these people have a deficit large enough that it won't be corrected in a few classes a week so the instructor (in my mind) should or at least could prompt the student to get more fit outside (jog, bike, or just do more uechi as the student chooses). What's so wrong about that?
2) People who are so inflexible they can't kick waist high if their partner is a wee bit taller, who can't kick quickly because of their stiffness, and who are hard to do partner drills with because of their stiffness. They aren't flexible enough to get the most out of their class. that's a problem. That problem has a solution: get more flexible. I never said they had to do a floor routine. Often these people have a deficit large enough it's not corrected by routine stretching in class so the instructor, in my mind, should or could prompt the student to stretch more often outside of class. What's so wrong about that?
3) People who are skinny enough that their strength limited their abililty to strike with good force and compete with larger classmates or theoretical bad guys. They're strength deficit was large enough it was holding back their karate. That's a problem, and that problem has a solution: get stronger. I never said they had to do powerllifting. OFten these people have a deficit large enough it's not corrected by several classes of justr karate a week, so the instructor, in my mind, should or could prompt the student to develop strength outside of class--that could be pushups etc but simple weights routines are safe and easy and make better athletes and karate students. What's so wrong about that?
Benzo feels improved after his fitness work, and I feel improved after tackling some weightlifting. I for one am no powerlifter and I'm still, at 6'3", just under 170. No one is proposing going crazy on this.
I feel it's also important to point out that while we need not kick someone in the head, we feel in Uechi that overtraining is often good. We would never expect someone to deliberately eat strikes aimed at them, yet many body condition to defend against the possibility they're going to take blows. And it's easier to kick the groin if you can comfortably kick the ribs.
Strength, fitness and flexibility absolutely affect people's ability to do their own martial art, to defend themselves, to participate for other students' benefits, and to represent the art. If a student has a deficit that could be improved with a prescription for reasonable extracurricular exercise (that is, no synchronized swimming or olympic trampoline), why shouldn't instructors know how to provide some basic advice and why shouldn't they give it?
--Ian
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RACastanet
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Ian said: "People who are so inflexible they can't kick waist high"
So true. We had a test today for our group and flexibility is an issue even though I force them to stretch. The ones that cannot kick above the knee are downright dangerous to training partners and themselves. They just cannot perform kata and kyu kumite properly.
Personally, I believe flexibility is my shield against injury. At 51 I am more durable than most karateka I meet... soft tissue injuries just do not plague me. I do get very sore and achy, but my range of motion is never comprimised and my joints function just fine.
Rich
So true. We had a test today for our group and flexibility is an issue even though I force them to stretch. The ones that cannot kick above the knee are downright dangerous to training partners and themselves. They just cannot perform kata and kyu kumite properly.
Personally, I believe flexibility is my shield against injury. At 51 I am more durable than most karateka I meet... soft tissue injuries just do not plague me. I do get very sore and achy, but my range of motion is never comprimised and my joints function just fine.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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f.Channell
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If you want to see Uechi fitness at it's best buy Gushi Sensei's Sanchin video. Simply unbelievable for a man his age. I also saw it first hand with Nakahodo Sensei recently. It is part of the art which didn't make it across the ocean I'm afraid.
Even these folks may be becoming rare in Asia as they adopt a more western lifestyle.
F.
Even these folks may be becoming rare in Asia as they adopt a more western lifestyle.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
I am a nidan and have been training for total of 12 years in two different styles of martial arts. Presently I teach 4-5 karate classes a week, 4 kickboxing to music classes and I started training in brazilion jui jitsu. I believe that having a well rounded workout every class that includes cardio, stregnth training, and the martial arts part of the class only makes a stronger martial artist. Each person has their own limits which differ from each other but a total workout on a continuous basis will stretch those limits. What the student could endure the first night they started should be a heck of a lot different then five years down the road and if it isnt then they have not worked hard enough. Martial arts, no matter what kind, is a way of life and being in good physical shape is a huge part of that. I know from my jui jitsu classes that if I were not in good shape I would not even make it through a class. The physical demand of this martial art includes good flexibility, agility, and core muscle stregnth. If you do not have these you will lose the fight. An obese person could do the motions of a kata but could not move his body around on the ground to submit an opponent. I guess different martial arts calls for different levels of fitness. Personally, the more fit you are the better you are going to make your martial art work for you.
What's interesting is that this thread has turned to the benefits of fitness, which no one is debating. We all agree fitness is good.
This is a lot different from the IMPOSITION of standards which is what the original topic was, and the question about what they would entail and how they would be implemented.
This is a different thing in my view.
NM
This is a lot different from the IMPOSITION of standards which is what the original topic was, and the question about what they would entail and how they would be implemented.
This is a different thing in my view.
NM
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Guest
Yes Neil the smoke screen was deployed somewhere along the line. 
I think the thread became FITNESS IS GOOD!, when no one was willing to point the finger at someone who didn't deserve to pass the test.
On the other hand maybe there has never been an unfit candident in the Dan test who got through. I really can't see it happening .
I was under the impression that New England had a higher standard for dan tests.I'd be surprised to see lesser folk getting the nod.
No one disputed other test issues like the dance components,(Hey give me a break, I haven't said anything about prearranged drills in a long time.
I was surprised folks wanted to enshrine a running time or a pushup challenge in the test.
To be 100% honest I'd be happy to fight this years milage champ or the push up champ but I'd think long and hard about the full contact champ or the kata application champ.
Maybe if we want sound black belts we should test for fighting skills and not drills and exercise. Just an idea and not a judgement folks.
A significant # of Dan ranked folks seem to have some reasonable skills. So maybe it works.....My clocks ticking and I have a goal of brining my students up to speed asap. so I disguard anything that has unproven value too me.Today that includes a lot of the test requirements.
I do not diss anyone for exploring this material to pass a test. I'm content to do what I do.We train to fulfill our goals.
As long as we train!
I think the thread became FITNESS IS GOOD!, when no one was willing to point the finger at someone who didn't deserve to pass the test.On the other hand maybe there has never been an unfit candident in the Dan test who got through. I really can't see it happening .
I was under the impression that New England had a higher standard for dan tests.I'd be surprised to see lesser folk getting the nod.
No one disputed other test issues like the dance components,(Hey give me a break, I haven't said anything about prearranged drills in a long time.
I was surprised folks wanted to enshrine a running time or a pushup challenge in the test.
To be 100% honest I'd be happy to fight this years milage champ or the push up champ but I'd think long and hard about the full contact champ or the kata application champ.
Maybe if we want sound black belts we should test for fighting skills and not drills and exercise. Just an idea and not a judgement folks.
A significant # of Dan ranked folks seem to have some reasonable skills. So maybe it works.....My clocks ticking and I have a goal of brining my students up to speed asap. so I disguard anything that has unproven value too me.Today that includes a lot of the test requirements.
I do not diss anyone for exploring this material to pass a test. I'm content to do what I do.We train to fulfill our goals.
As long as we train!
I take it this gentleman didn't do Uechi or any other martial art, but the story is an interesting comment on our culture:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... lf_ton_man
Excerpts:
"He was still in his 20s when he went on disability after a fall 16 years ago and has relied on Medicare to cover his medical expenses. Over the years, he says he asked Medicare to cover weight-loss programs he couldn't afford. But Medicare, which is funded with tax dollars, did not consider the programs to be medically necessary, says Deuel."
He previously weighed 1,072 pounds... now:
"On a 1,200-calorie-a-day diet, Deuel hopes to hit the 300-pound mark... Deuel's weight loss is about eight months ahead of schedule, his doctor says."
My question is, what would be MORE expensive about this 1,200 calorie diet he's on compared to his prior intake, and since he's easily able to shed pounds on it, why does he want a gastric bypass with it's 1-2% risk of death?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... lf_ton_man
Excerpts:
"He was still in his 20s when he went on disability after a fall 16 years ago and has relied on Medicare to cover his medical expenses. Over the years, he says he asked Medicare to cover weight-loss programs he couldn't afford. But Medicare, which is funded with tax dollars, did not consider the programs to be medically necessary, says Deuel."
He previously weighed 1,072 pounds... now:
"On a 1,200-calorie-a-day diet, Deuel hopes to hit the 300-pound mark... Deuel's weight loss is about eight months ahead of schedule, his doctor says."
My question is, what would be MORE expensive about this 1,200 calorie diet he's on compared to his prior intake, and since he's easily able to shed pounds on it, why does he want a gastric bypass with it's 1-2% risk of death?
--Ian
A man caught in the vortex. A tragic story of human fragility. I'm sure many can relate on their own level.
For him it was weight. For others, equal vices, more easily concealed.
BTW: interesting story but nothing to do with this thread, as I pointed out about previous digressions!
Please don't take offense IJ, but we just noticed that this thread got off-topic in a big way!
Your URL is relevant to personal fitness, but the thread was started to address the imposition of fitness standards in the Uechi curriculum.
This man is not likely to show up at a Uechi introductory class, nor does his affliction relate to martial arts fitness standards.
Any comment on that? (The fitness standards)
NM
For him it was weight. For others, equal vices, more easily concealed.
BTW: interesting story but nothing to do with this thread, as I pointed out about previous digressions!
Please don't take offense IJ, but we just noticed that this thread got off-topic in a big way!
Your URL is relevant to personal fitness, but the thread was started to address the imposition of fitness standards in the Uechi curriculum.
This man is not likely to show up at a Uechi introductory class, nor does his affliction relate to martial arts fitness standards.
Any comment on that? (The fitness standards)
NM
Rory and I had a discussion about this, and as usual Rory brought up several good points. One of these is that there may have been only a very few, or even one student who were representative of the school in terms of physical prowess. They could defend the school's honor and generally impress all who beheld them. These people were not always the instructors, who were considered instructors (black belts if you will) based on their ability to transmit the style cleanly and effectively, not necessarily if they could do the splits three ways or do a walk-over flip against a wall.
So maybe it does come down to individual choice, essentially what you focus your learning on to achieve. Are you going to be the one ready to drop feet first into a demonstration of Uechi's finest points, or the one who could teach a hyperactive monkey on steroids how to do sanchin? Or both?
On the other hand, these days we all represent martial arts in general and our school in particular to the general public whenever we say "I practice (fill in your style)" How fit you are is partly choice, partly necessity (being able to perform the necessary tasks expected of your level), but also partly the upholding of the school's standards (low, med or hi) of what a practitioner should be fitness-wise, since when push comes to shove part of the art is physical. How much emphasis on the physical there is may rely on how physical vs. how mental a particular style is considered. Another factor may be entirely dependant on how big your mouth is.
Since I blah blah blah all the time I guess I'd better be fit as a fiddle, dragging my poor styles along as the unwitting and unwilling recipients of my pseudo-ambassadorship.
Kami
So maybe it does come down to individual choice, essentially what you focus your learning on to achieve. Are you going to be the one ready to drop feet first into a demonstration of Uechi's finest points, or the one who could teach a hyperactive monkey on steroids how to do sanchin? Or both?
On the other hand, these days we all represent martial arts in general and our school in particular to the general public whenever we say "I practice (fill in your style)" How fit you are is partly choice, partly necessity (being able to perform the necessary tasks expected of your level), but also partly the upholding of the school's standards (low, med or hi) of what a practitioner should be fitness-wise, since when push comes to shove part of the art is physical. How much emphasis on the physical there is may rely on how physical vs. how mental a particular style is considered. Another factor may be entirely dependant on how big your mouth is.
Since I blah blah blah all the time I guess I'd better be fit as a fiddle, dragging my poor styles along as the unwitting and unwilling recipients of my pseudo-ambassadorship. Kami
One seed, many lives.
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Bill Glasheen
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Standards are quite a dilemma - particularly since all cannot agree on the definition of fitness. It's an evolving picture.
Personally I prefer to "leave it to the schools" the way federal government often "leaves it to the states." Life is simpler that way, and we are blessed with the depth and breadth we end up with by having a broader tent. Nevertheless, I think a lot can be done by example, and a little more by shame.
Whatever it takes. This is a win-win proposition.
- Bill
Personally I prefer to "leave it to the schools" the way federal government often "leaves it to the states." Life is simpler that way, and we are blessed with the depth and breadth we end up with by having a broader tent. Nevertheless, I think a lot can be done by example, and a little more by shame.
Whatever it takes. This is a win-win proposition.
- Bill
Yes, this is quite my point.
Uechi teachers are not Certified Fitness Trainers, and Uechi Ryu is not overtly a "fitness program."
That is precisely why no one can, as you say, "agree on a definition of fitness". The teachers are not qualified to determine this, let alone teach it!
Given THAT situation how could the Uechi test board impose a fitness test, when no one on that board can agree on what fitness is?!
Invoking fitness standards would actually require a lot more of the teachers than the students, and so I don't think it would ever happen, as teachers are more concerned with teaching Uechi Ryu than Tae Bo.
(I believe Billy Blanks is a Certified Fitness Trainer, in addition to his MA credentials, and obviously he is more concerned with teaching fitness than self defense...unless, like some of his adherents, you consider Tae Bo to be self defense.)
NM
Uechi teachers are not Certified Fitness Trainers, and Uechi Ryu is not overtly a "fitness program."
That is precisely why no one can, as you say, "agree on a definition of fitness". The teachers are not qualified to determine this, let alone teach it!
Given THAT situation how could the Uechi test board impose a fitness test, when no one on that board can agree on what fitness is?!
Invoking fitness standards would actually require a lot more of the teachers than the students, and so I don't think it would ever happen, as teachers are more concerned with teaching Uechi Ryu than Tae Bo.
(I believe Billy Blanks is a Certified Fitness Trainer, in addition to his MA credentials, and obviously he is more concerned with teaching fitness than self defense...unless, like some of his adherents, you consider Tae Bo to be self defense.)
NM
