The problem with Washington and wars

[AAAhmed46]

Let's look at it from both angles. Say they're willing to take the burka off to get the picture taken (and most of the controversy comes when they refuse to and then sue the government). Then they go drive around in the burka, and a cop stops them. And they refuse to remove the burka.

I hate to be a guy to hate on liberalism since it's so...common on this forum but it's the problem of all these europian governments being way to lenient, plus you could get stabbed in the arab world for bothering a veiled woman, or used to, i have no idea how their culture has changed now. I do know that from Fannon's book, he talks about how the french were afraid to bother woman in burkas as to not touch off riots, so veiled woman would transfer messages/even weapons.

I've got an idea. How about assimulation, where people come to a country, and if they intend to become citizens, they learn how to live within the culture of the land they've adopted. There is NO possible justification for a burka in a modern country. None.

Then stop talking about freedom all the time then, tell you governemnts to stop talking about freedom of speech or expression or art or whatever.

Right. Somalia was obviously the fault of the Portugese. Kenya too. Siera Leone. The list goes on and on. Those wicked Portugese.

Why are so many europian languages, french and english included so commonly spoken there then huh? You don't think western colonialism had ANYTHING to do with it? Even bernard lewis admits colonialsim totally screwed up africa, and he's one of colonialism's biggest supporters.

Right. Because the Western World reveres Islamic philosophy and uses alot of Islamic government structures.

Believe it or not, your divorce laws are influenced by the muslims. The muslims preserved greek writings, greek philosophy and thus also transfered their own into europian culture. Go look up Albert Magnus and Thomas Aquines, they borrowed heavily from Avveros and Al-Ghazali(forgive spelling)

You're fond of your sources, so let's see the one for that claim of admitting it. [/quote
She admitted it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
On May 16, Hirsi Ali resigned from Parliament after admitting that she had lied on her asylum application. On that day, she gave a press conference,[41] in which she restated that, although she felt it was wrong to be granted asylum under false pretences, the facts had been publicly known since 2002 when they had been reported in the media and in one of her publications. In the press conference, she also restated that she had spoken the truth about the reason for seeking asylum, which had been the threat of a forced marriage, despite a claim to the contrary on the Zembla program by some of her relatives. Her stated reason for resigning immediately was not the continuous threats, making her job as a parliamentarian "difficult" but "not impossible", but the news that the Minister would strip her of her Dutch citizenship.

After a long and emotional debate in the Dutch Parliament, all major parties supported a motion, requesting the Minister to explore the possibility of special circumstances in Hirsi Ali's case. Although Verdonk remained convinced that the applicable law did not leave her any room to consider such circumstances, she decided to accept the motion. During the debate, she astonished MPs by claiming that Hirsi Ali still had Dutch citizenship during the period of reexamination. Apparently the "decision" she had made public had been merely a report of the current position of the Dutch government. Hirsi Ali at that point had six weeks to react to the report before any final decision about her citizenship was taken. Verdonk was heavily criticized for not acting more prudently in a case that had so many political implications.

Do you read this crap before you post it?

No, but i remember reading about his attacker in the newspaper here in Edmonton, they wrote a long ass article on this.

Sunni, Shiite... they're what? Muslim. Uh huh. You know, that's usually all it takes in that closeted mindset... someone to say some crap.

It makes more difference then you think. Shiites are like catholics, imagine the pope saying something like that about Dan brown, it's the equivalent of that.

I asked you to name one person in this age who has criticized Christianity and lives in fear for their life. You post a link to a story eminating from a third-world country of someone specifically not criticizing Christianity, and yet in fear of their life. Is this a communication breakdown? Are you reading what I'm saying?[/quote
Your implying islam it self is fundamentally more intolerant and violent, i showed christians behaving in the same manner. I can't find a specific story, because unlike islam, it isn't scrutinized as closely.

Highly emotional stuff. The guy's not only alive, but he's not living in fear for his life, either.

Did not someone try to kill him for insulting Christianity?

or soldeirs who joined the army after 9/11 specifically to shoot muslims in a belief that it's a new crusade and fighting for christ?

Name one major Christian denomination pushing that belief.
Right wing evangelical, probably anyone who loves watching John Hagee and Pat robertson, they spew this crap all the time, that the war on terrorism is a war between christianity and islam, or franklin graham talking about 'god is with america!!!!' then ranting about afganistan and Iraq.

Maybe you should ask yourself why more muslims live in schit holes than Christians.

I have, they never recovered from the Mongols, they were divided and constantly either being conquired or warred with each other. ...and if you read ATHIEST Tariq Ali(ex-muslim apostate, travels frequently to pakistan where no one has killed him yet.) he talks about how whenenever a muslim country begins to modernize, someone in the west retards it when their interests are not served.
Ottomans were Muslim, some parts of thier history very religious yet still succesful, yet turkey today is a very well developed country, and Malaysia is doing very well.
Many muslim countries were former communist states or still are(IE Uzbeckistan, you can disappear at night for appearly greatly religious)
infact, if you look at the HISTORY, there were times muslims were more, or just as succesful as europians.
What about muslim spain? Read up on that.

Look around. What progress?

Your computer, your house, algerbra. Astronomy, medicne, the fact you are alive. That is progress. Geology, math, painting.Architecture Look around? I see alot.
You didn't read the links i sent you did you? If you ask, "look around, what progress'' then obviously you didn't read the links. Want to talk about plato? Guess who helped preserve those?

Im lazy, so take this for what it's worth..or not.


I hope you don't like coffee......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions ... eval_Islam

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl? ... 13/1255202

Why don't you read up on islamic philosophy? More of it is a part of your culture then you think.

No, I'm really not. I was referring to the Quran's teaching on wives.

"When your wives have purified themselves, you may approach may approach them in any manner, time or place."

And again...

"As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, scourge them and banish them to beds apart."

There are more. We both know this.

How predictable. I knew you would quote these.
Learn arabic first. Daraba, know what that means?
This is why i think the bible should not be read in english or french or german, people must be aware of the language of what they worship.

As for purification: Goes both ways, think men don't have to be pure either?

yes there is more:
I HATE to refer to youtube, but the speaker is very qualified.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFluxnAcwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYpje0qIvFA

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... _problems/


Goes on that men and woman are not equal...saying that in ways woman are better due to childbirth

Estes is very very orthodox too, very very conservative.

Many orthodox muslims also believe daraba, which is translated as chastise also means to go live in seperate dwellings(IE separation)


You've got a stronger argument on inheritance or witnesses then you do on wife beating: For half value of witnesses in financial transacations, im scratching my head too, though their witness is equal in other court cases such as murder/rape anything else.
Half of inheritence is simple: Woman don't have to pay taxes, nor do they have to share their wealth with their brothers, sisters or husband. Not even their children. They keep all they earn.

Face it, your a soldeir, your dehumanizing your enemy, or just have a hard stance on Islam due to loyalty to right wing politics. You realize it was the left who bashed islam in the cold war and the right that defended it? How things change due to political games.



Damn itailics, this forum doesnt work well with fire fox.

[Jason Rees]

Then stop talking about freedom all the time then, tell you governemnts to stop talking about freedom of speech or expression or art or whatever.

Oh, do tell how wearing a burka frees a woman. It's a repressive, anachronistic burden on women, and should be abolished in any free country.

Why are so many europian languages, french and english included so commonly spoken there then huh? You don't think western colonialism had ANYTHING to do with it? Even bernard lewis admits colonialsim totally screwed up africa, and he's one of colonialism's biggest supporters.

I don't know if you noticed, but all the colonies are gone. What moved in after was your beloved Islam. Where there was law and order, productivity, etc, is now FUBAR. A true testament to the wonders of Islam.

Believe it or not, your divorce laws are influenced by the muslims. The muslims preserved greek writings, greek philosophy and thus also transfered their own into europian culture. Go look up Albert Magnus and Thomas Aquines, they borrowed heavily from Avveros and Al-Ghazali(forgive spelling)

Believe it or not, I don't give a rat's ass what the Arabs preserved. The Catholic Church preserved alot of stuff, too. And if the Greeks were displaced to such an extent that it was the Arabs preserving their stuff, I wouldn't exactly call that a crowning accomplishment. Hell with it, I'm calling 'preservation' a bullcrap argument for occupation. And since you have such a problem with the colonism mentioned above, you should recognize that Greece was occupied by an outside power, left, and isn't the mess Africa is because Islam and Arabic culture never took hold.

She admitted it.

You claimed:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali delibertly made up stories. She lied about half her stuff, then admitted it, then was pissed off that people who once supported her started to condemn her for lying. Come on. Then more and more dishonestly was uncovered as time went on.

Then you link to a story that she admitted she lied about her name on her application for Dutch citizenship.

That's it? But you said she lied about 'half her stuff.' And that more dishonesty was uncovered as time went on. Do tell. Or is that really all? So genital mutilation, honor killings, the sad state of the countries she lived in, the subjugation of women, etc, etc, etc... You're saying she lied about that stuff, right? Based on what again?

No, but i remember reading about his attacker in the newspaper here in Edmonton, they wrote a long ass article on this.

One article. One bloody article written from the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean from where it happened. Theo Van Gogh was killed by a man in a Muslim robe in front of fifty witnesses, two weeks after the release of the movie, Submission. AHA recieved thousands of death threats, and as you mentioned in the case of Rushdie, yeah, a muslim authority figure opened their trap. And someone died. One lone isolated crackpot this wasn't.

Your implying islam it self is fundamentally more intolerant and violent, i showed christians behaving in the same manner. I can't find a specific story, because unlike islam, it isn't scrutinized as closely.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Damn, you're funny. Here's a newsflash for you: Christianity is the most-scrutinized religion in the history of man. Go to any bookstore, and you'll find twenty titles on average purporting to disprove it, lay out its evils throughout history, and in general poo-pooing it. Good luck finding the same amount on Islam. Check newspapers. The major media networks. Yeah, sorry. Boo hoo, Islam's so picked on.

Did not someone try to kill him for insulting Christianity?

Who said they were trying to kill him?

Right wing evangelical, probably anyone who loves watching John Hagee and Pat robertson, they spew this crap all the time, that the war on terrorism is a war between christianity and islam, or franklin graham talking about 'god is with america!!!!' then ranting about afganistan and Iraq.

John Hagee and Pat Robertson don't advocate assassinating people. Are they crackpots? Absolutely. Anyone ever killed in their name? Nope. Sorry. Keep looking.

Maybe you should ask yourself why more muslims live in schit holes than Christians.

I have, they never recovered from the Mongols, they were divided and constantly either being conquired or warred with each other. ...and if you read ATHIEST Tariq Ali(ex-muslim apostate, travels frequently to pakistan where no one has killed him yet.) he talks about how whenenever a muslim country begins to modernize, someone in the west retards it when their interests are not served.

Oh, that big bad western world boogy-man. Of course, Islamic-Arabic practices hostile to progress and encouraging to corruption, have nothing to do with it. Of course not.

infact, if you look at the HISTORY, there were times muslims were more, or just as succesful as europians.
What about muslim spain? Read up on that.

Keep looking back at history if it makes you feel better. I'm talking about present-day, where it's indefensible.


What progress I asked...

Your computer, your house, algerbra. Astronomy, medicne, the fact you are alive. That is progress. Geology, math, painting.Architecture Look around? I see alot.

Ooo so you're claiming there wouldn't be medicine, algebra, astronomy or medicine without Islam. Iiiiiiinteresting. Those pesky Roman surgeons, those silly Greek scientists, Italian painters... Ever been to Rome? You want to look at architectural influence, start there.

You've got a bias you can't get around to see the reality.

Want to talk about plato? Guess who helped preserve those?

I don't know if you noticed... but Plato was Greek. If there was a problem with preserving them, I think you might look to Arabs/Islam as the cause, not the saint.

I hope you don't like coffee......

I hate the stuff. And frankly it causes numerous health problems these days. But we wouldn't want to mention that since you're blaming Islam for it.

Why don't you read up on islamic philosophy? More of it is a part of your culture then you think.

Mayhap it is, mayhap it isn't, but I'm still catching up on my Western Philosophy. You know that one, don't you? the one that defined the modern world?

How predictable. I knew you would quote these.
Learn arabic first. Daraba, know what that means?
This is why i think the bible should not be read in english or french or german, people must be aware of the language of what they worship.

ROTFLMAO!!!
"You can't criticize us because you don't read it the same way we do." Sorry. English is a universal language in the modern world. If your verses can translate into English (they were), they can be understood in English (they are). You don't get to hide behind the 'You don't understand the nuances of Arabic' bull. The Bible was written in Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, and later Latin, and translated half-a-dozen times between that and English. And we still don't claim to not know what was originally intended. No, 'learn Arabic first' is a cop-out.

You've got a stronger argument on inheritance or witnesses then you do on wife beating.

You actually believe this, don't you?

Face it, your a soldeir, your dehumanizing your enemy, or just have a hard stance on Islam due to loyalty to right wing politics. You realize it was the left who bashed islam in the cold war and the right that defended it? How things change due to political games.

*sigh*
Have you ever seen dehumanizing in action? I told you in the previous post, that Muslims are all too human. Face it, Islam has alot of problems, nobody (including you) is willing to face up to those problems, and until someone does, it will continue to be a backwards, dehumanizing, corrupting and destructive force for at least decades to come.

Yes, Muslims are all too human. Do I want to kill them? Hardly. Believe it or not, I have a Muslim friend. I can even have civil conversations with him. And he doesn't use the same lame excuses you have here.

Looking forward to hearing more about the lies of AHA.

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting and passionate argument, gentlemen. Do try to keep it civil and respectful.

Thanks in advance.

Bill

[IJ]

Coffee may not be entirely bad.

"Despite 20 years of reassuring research, many people still avoid caffeinated coffee because they worry about its health effects. However, current research reveals that in moderation—a few cups a day—coffee is a safe beverage that may even offer some health benefits. The September issue of Harvard Women's Health Watch weighs the pros and cons of this popular beverage and eases the concerns of moderate coffee drinkers.

The latest research has not only confirmed that moderate coffee consumption doesn't cause harm, it's also uncovered possible benefits. Studies show that the risk for type 2 diabetes is lower among regular coffee drinkers than among those who don't drink it. Also, coffee may reduce the risk of developing gallstones, discourage the development of colon cancer, improve cognitive function, reduce the risk of liver damage in people at high risk for liver disease, and reduce the risk of Parkinson's disease. Coffee has also been shown to improve endurance performance in long-duration physical activities."

And

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/ab ... 91/10/1213

Historical contributions of Islamic cultures, and (very important!) non-universality of these problems duly noted, but, Ahmed, overall, is it your assertion that the aspects of Islamic cultures that concern Americans (honor killings; burkas; inequalities with inheritance and tax and whatever else between the sexes; Taliban opposition to female schooling, even access to healthcare (when gender issues prevent it); severe restrictions on freedoms ranging from dress codes to beard wearing to an inability to leave the faith to threats against voters; warring between sects and death squads; the targeting of civilians and the use of suicide bombers and celebration of martyrdom, taught in fundamentalist schools; the eager use of Western freedoms to carry Islamic culture with immigration but the pressure against Western freedoms to discuss Islam in book, cartoon or movie forums; the threats to eradicate Israel, the comments about the need to spread Islam worldwide and so on)--have we:

A) Misunderstood or imagined those things
B) Mistakenly blamed those things on Islam when they're merely Islamic people doing them for other reasons
C) Brought those things on ourselves by meddling
D) Something else?

Because we know there are details lost in the translation, and there may be some reason historically why inheritance is treated differently, but somehow that kinda stuff doesn't add up to an explanation. Some authors have suggested that the clash (or "bloody borders") between Islam and other is due to the nature of Islam--what do you think is the fundamental issue?

[AAAhmed46]

Oh, do tell how wearing a burka frees a woman. It's a repressive, anachronistic burden on women, and should be abolished in any free country.

Talk to some converts. They like it, i personally do not believe it's as required as some muslims think, the quran doesn't mention, and talks about it only for the prophets wives. But if a woman finds she likes how much it hides her, fine, let her do it, as long as she doesn't make much noise getting her picture taken for a license or taking the veil off for the bank.

I don't know if you noticed, but all the colonies are gone. What moved in after was your beloved Islam. Where there was law and order, productivity, etc, is now FUBAR. A true testament to the wonders of Islam.

Gone, after getting divided up with tribalism gone crazy, if anything one can argue things would be worse with or without islam, and Islam was around before things were so bad.

Believe it or not, I don't give a rat's ass what the Arabs preserved. The Catholic Church preserved alot of stuff, too. And if the Greeks were displaced to such an extent that it was the Arabs preserving their stuff, I wouldn't exactly call that a crowning accomplishment. Hell with it, I'm calling 'preservation' a bullcrap argument for occupation. And since you have such a problem with the colonism mentioned above, you should recognize that Greece was occupied by an outside power, left, and isn't the mess Africa is because Islam and Arabic culture never took hold.

You think greece wasn't influenced by arab culture? Really? Come on man.
Im against impearlism, period. That includes muslim imprealism, the taliban, the Genocide of the Armenians. I can recognize when they did bad stuff. But they did many many great things, and these accomplishments, progress conintued well after Islam was around. Greece and Rome had their surgeons. So did the muslims. When muslims took power, science didn't suddenly stop advancing, it continued on track.


[

Then you link to a story that she admitted she lied about her name on her application for Dutch citizenship.

That's it? But you said she lied about 'half her stuff.' And that more dishonesty was uncovered as time went on. Do tell. Or is that really all? So genital mutilation, honor killings, the sad state of the countries she lived in, the subjugation of women, etc, etc, etc... You're saying she lied about that stuff, right? Based on what again?

Her family, even some of her supporters came forward and debunked many of her claims. Even her book is laughably a horrible representation of Somalians and african muslims. Go talk to some of these Somalian woman born and raised in somalia. African woman are some of the most interesting ive met, very outspoken very individualistic. Tariq ali tore her book apart as well.

One article. One bloody article written from the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean from where it happened. Theo Van Gogh was killed by a man in a Muslim robe in front of fifty witnesses, two weeks after the release of the movie, Submission. AHA recieved thousands of death threats, and as you mentioned in the case of Rushdie, yeah, a muslim authority figure opened their trap. And someone died. One lone isolated crackpot this wasn't.

Kevin smith recieved death threats from his movie Dogma. No one thought he would actually get stabbed. I was just as surprised as anyone else at Theo getting killed like that. It's not like his fellow co-religionists told him to do it.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Damn, you're funny. Here's a newsflash for you: Christianity is the most-scrutinized religion in the history of man. Go to any bookstore, and you'll find twenty titles on average purporting to disprove it, lay out its evils throughout history, and in general poo-pooing it. Good luck finding the same amount on Islam. Check newspapers. The major media networks. Yeah, sorry. Boo hoo, Islam's so picked on.

Most scrutinized religion from WITHIN, from within it's own confines by it's own people, the athiests products of it's own culture. There was a time when christians would be killed for writing books critical of christianity. You guys were lucky enough to have enough solidarity that you could modernize without interurption. Ex-christian muslims don't make up false stories or misquote the bible when talking about Christianity, i don't hear ex-christian muslim speakers talking about a violent take over from christians and how it held back their total society. Islam's main teachings is you cannot insult other religions, ESPECIALLY Judaism and Christianity.

Who said they were trying to kill him?[/quotes]
Someone tried to light his house on fire.

John Hagee and Pat Robertson don't advocate assassinating people. Are they crackpots? Absolutely. Anyone ever killed in their name? Nope. Sorry. Keep looking.

Sure they do, jesus is lord of Iraq, they fight in the name of god. Hagee and robertson BARELY keep themselves from declaring total war. Hagee keeps implying the EU is new rome and is talking how Muslims are itching to take over, says it again and again, then starts talking about how jesus isn't the hippy he's made out to be, was also a warrior. If that isn't implying a call for war, what is? Thier just more politically correct then some imam payed by al-quada in Iraq. Robertson once called for the assasination of Chavez.

Oh, that big bad western world boogy-man. Of course, Islamic-Arabic practices hostile to progress and encouraging to corruption, have nothing to do with it. Of course not.

You realize the mood in the islamic world is relatively secular right? If it didn't get in the way in the past, why is it getting in the way now? Thats my arguement, if they were very religious but were a civilized society in the past, why would it affect them now? Go read Margolis as well as Bernard lewis. Lewis supports colonialism argueing it did more good then bad, Margolis argued colonialists delibretly kept the muslims backwards. Both agree there were times where muslims were heavily reliigous but also very prosperous and civilized besides totally different views.
And muslim countries are not as backwards as you think. Compare pakistan with china or pakistan with christian african countries, they arn't as different as you think they are. They are as backwards as any other third world country, everything is just exaggerated.

Keep looking back at history if it makes you feel better. I'm talking about present-day, where it's indefensible.


What progress I asked...

It's relevent to this arguement. I fully agree today muslims are pretty backward, but blaming it on islam is false, because historically muslims have been religious and succesful as well. So if it did not stop them way back when, why would it harm them now? Burka? Many conservative muslims don't even say thats required, that and many other concepts viewed as incompatible with the west.

Infact, if your talking about modern day, the only real islamic country in the middle east is Iran, and believe it or not, it's actually more succesful then many of it's neighbors(no im not saying the theocracy is good)

Ooo so you're claiming there wouldn't be medicine, algebra, astronomy or medicine without Islam. Iiiiiiinteresting. Those pesky Roman surgeons, those silly Greek scientists, Italian painters... Ever been to Rome? You want to look at architectural influence, start there.

You've got a bias you can't get around to see the reality.

I didn't say romean and greek science didn't play a role. But so did Islamic medicine and science.

In the renaissance, who INFLUENCED those italian painters and scientists? First there was progress in the roman empire and in greece, then among the muslims, and then on that foundation, the Renaissance took place.

I never said other cultures did not contribute. Im just presenting my case that Muslims contributed too.

I don't know if you noticed... but Plato was Greek. If there was a problem with preserving them, I think you might look to Arabs/Islam as the cause, not the saint.

A great deal was lost when rome was taken. They kept it.

I hate the stuff. And frankly it causes numerous health problems these days. But we wouldn't want to mention that since you're blaming Islam for it.

Do you hate cameras too? The contributed on that as well.

Mayhap it is, mayhap it isn't, but I'm still catching up on my Western Philosophy. You know that one, don't you? the one that defined the modern world?

Western philosophy is great, i got nothing against it. I like Socrates, he was pretty badass. But i don't discount the east either.

ROTFLMAO!!!
"You can't criticize us because you don't read it the same way we do." Sorry. English is a universal language in the modern world. If your verses can translate into English (they were), they can be understood in English (they are). You don't get to hide behind the 'You don't understand the nuances of Arabic' bull. The Bible was written in Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, and later Latin, and translated half-a-dozen times between that and English. And we still don't claim to not know what was originally intended. No, 'learn Arabic first' is a cop-out.

actually it isn't. You've talked to bible scholars right? Or even linguists? Something like the book of five rings has many issues of translation and info lost in translation. The quran is one of the oldest and complex works in arabic. If an arab claims he understands everything clearly, he's lying. Even arab SCHOLARS have to look at many other soarces. My poli-sci professor read arabic, and admitted the quran was difficult to understand due to changes in meanings of words as well as sheer complexity.

You actually believe this, don't you?

More of an internal debate on those issues as well as it's more clear. I would be intellectual dishonest to deny it.

Have you ever seen dehumanizing in action? I told you in the previous post, that Muslims are all too human. Face it, Islam has alot of problems, nobody (including you) is willing to face up to those problems, and until someone does, it will continue to be a backwards, dehumanizing, corrupting and destructive force for at least decades to come.

Yes, Muslims are all too human. Do I want to kill them? Hardly. Believe it or not, I have a Muslim friend. I can even have civil conversations with him. And he doesn't use the same lame excuses you have here.

I never said there wasn't problems. But you seem to just say 'oh that whole area ***** because of islam' well no, it's way more complex then that. The political, social, historical causes are totally under emphasized.
We have lots of domestic abuse problems, my dad works with abused Muslim woman. But does that mean it's theologically justified? No it isn't.

There are lots of things muslims have to come to terms with. But not being inherently against progress or inherently backwards.




Ive got nothing against western progress or civilization, past or present. I was born and raised in a western country. Im a product of western culture.

But i don't totally disregard the east, not do i ignore it's role in the FORMATION of current western culture.

But even that is not my main argument. I bring up history only to say, which i will repeat again: If the faith it self fundamentally hampers progress, then there would not be any Islamic civilization, whether or not it influenced the west positively and negatively(which it did) they would have achieved nothing. But they did achieve things, even if today is a shitty time for them. So is it the faith that is fundamentally holding them back, or a ##### load of many many things, INCLUDING fundamentalism?

[AAAhmed46]

Historical contributions of Islamic cultures, and (very important!) non-universality of these problems duly noted, but, Ahmed, overall, is it your assertion that the aspects of Islamic cultures that concern Americans (honor killings; burkas; inequalities with inheritance and tax and whatever else between the sexes;

I posted links of a yazdi honor killing and a man killing because of the bible. Im sure you heard of christian arabs doing honor killings? Don't have a link to that though. Burkas is over exposed, most muslim woman don't wear it in their own cultures(other then where it is legally enforced) there has been an increase in it's use after 2001. Wonder why?
I don't know what you mean about tax, but for inheritence, woman don't have any religiuos or government obligation to share their wealth, while men have many, so they get half inheritance. Thats the argument, though that is a real theological issue to argue.
Hindus practice segregation of the sexes as well, they just arn't bumping as many heads politically so they don't make the news. As a south asian, met many hindu woman who will not shake hands with me. Perspective.

Taliban opposition to female schooling, even access to healthcare (when gender issues prevent it);

There was an interview with one of the swat valley leader guys(forgot his name) in a pakistani news paper. My parents couldn't stop talking about it. Basically they guy talked about how woman should not be schooled or go to work, so then the reporter asked how woman would get help from docters and services. And the taliban dude basically said the husband would take care of it.

There was a huge LOL from most of the pakistani community as well as imams. Taliban is torn too however, Isreali reporter Nir Rosen talks about his interviews with man Taliban, saying many want woman to go to college and get jobs. They arn't exactly male feminists, but that view is different from some of the other Taliban.

Talib means student. Taliban is basically, as i understand it a title of a government of students. They openly admitted their ignorance in islamic knowledge and were still learning. The taliban also became the strong arm of pashtu nationalism. In pakistan these guys were causing trouble for a long time, they just didn't use religion as a cover like they are now. Infact it's wrong to call the militants in pakistan Taliban, their really tribal, they hate the government.

severe restrictions on freedoms ranging from dress codes to beard wearing to an inability to leave the faith to threats against voters;

Opposite happens in other places, your a big suspect if your wearing a beard in Uzbekistan for instance or in some countries if you caught waking up to pray in the morning, you could go to jail.

In ability to leave the faith is more of a really legit critique. There are arguments(like the links i posted) against it, but others argue that the hadith gives permission, or that muslims are at war, so it really is treason thus is allowed.

Threats against voters is something thats not unique to muslims or muslim countries. Even happened in early Canadian history.

warring between sects and death squads;

What country are you taling about? With Iraq its anger at suppression by the sunnis(ie alexander talking in his book about people joining al-qauda due to promises of protection against shiite militias)

the targeting of civilians and the use of suicide bombers and celebration of martyrdom, taught in fundamentalist schools;

Tamil tigers used suicide attacks long before the muslims, the Palestinians borrowed it. And it spread to the rest. Bernard lewis(pro-bush, pro-iraq war, pro-colonialism) argues suicide bombing is contridictory to islamic teaching or how they behaved historically.
Martyrs being made heros is the same as some soldier getting killed in Iraq and talking about how brave and good he was. Support the troops.
Like i said before, Hamas won the election because unlike fatah, which rested it's victory entirely on foreign policy and running a schit load of candidates spreading the vote, while hamas had feweer people, handed out food, built schools and taught, and cared for the sick. For all their faults, they actually provided care, so they got voted in. Considering how they provide education to so many, is it a surprise they celebrate martyrdom and promote fundamentalism.

the eager use of Western freedoms to carry Islamic culture with immigration but the pressure against Western freedoms to discuss Islam in book, cartoon or movie forums;

Oh this is a biiiiig exageration. The fault is the majority governments bent back waaay to far to accomodate, like creating Muslim only theaters. Whaaaaat? So they kept asking and asking. Polls in European Muslims as well as Gallup polls indicate more western preferences. Most Muslims don't even go to the mosque regularly, thus the crazies have a monopoly of the podium and leadership due to apathy from most Muslims. No real rioting in the developed world. Only in lebanon which as you know is really politically unstable(more so now) with the west and Syria, syria, where you would be shot for doing anything without the governments will. I got a feeling the riots were somehow allowed by the syrian government.
Pakistan, other places, they got pissed off, but nothing too bad other then here and there. I doubt ti would be so bad during the political climate.
Remember Geert Wilders movie? No one rioted when Fitna came out. It was worse. No murders.
There was collective embarrassment over the cartoons incident.

This sums it up:

The majority of European Jews looked, dressed, spoke, and were fully involved in the nations they lived in. They were even white skinned. But when the time came for tolerance, their integration, their great contributions to Europe's arts, science, and industry, did little for them. They were shipped -- with the willing cooperation of many locals across the nations of Europe -- to be massacred in their millions in German concentration camps. What's scary, it wasn't that long ago either.

This proves unequivocally that no matter what Muslims do, it will never be enough in the eyes of racists, which brings us to the crux of the matter. It is racism and prejudice that are at the root of the problem, not what the minorities dress or do. Prejudice needs to be dealt with first, before asking anything of minorities.

But that doesn't let Muslims off the hook. Very simply stated, if they cannot appreciate, respect, and get involved in the cultures of their adopted nations, the honest solution is to return to their nations of origin, where they can live their lives the way they wish to at ease. Having said that, however, all reports and indications from Europe show that the vast majority of Muslims are doing their best to integrate.

On their part, Europeans must recognize that it isn't an easy process, as anyone who's been through it is well aware. There's no contraption into which an immigrant can be fed and presto, out emerges an instant Dutchman, Dane or German.

Tolerance includes patience and the understanding that it takes time, sometimes even a lifetime, for such acculturation to occur. Tolerance also includes accepting differences, not forcing people to transform themselves into what pleases us even when the differences hurt no one.

From secularmuslims.com

the threats to eradicate Israel, the comments about the need to spread Islam worldwide and so on)--have we:

Conflict with muslims and jews is mostly since the last fifty years. Though in terms of jews, most muslims could care less, though they mix 'jew' and 'isreali' up a little too easily, use it too loosely. They cannot however truly hate the jews if they are truly religious, most of the prophets they believe in were jews, as well as the fact they must realize judaism is a sister religion.

B) Mistakenly blamed those things on Islam when they're merely Islamic people doing them for other reasons
C) Brought those things on ourselves by meddling
D) Something else?

All of the above, with some religious bases. Outside Meddling, extremism, nationalism, tribalism(often enhanced or even caused by meddling) lots is nationalism.
Like i said, Saudi arabia is hinting on helping isreal bomb iran.

Remember, it's like we said in the beginning of this.

It's like so many authors including pro-bush right wing authors say so as well.

Muslims live under dictatorships, often backed by the west. The estremists come along , provide food and education and then say "Look who is supporting these jerks?" And thats the root of why you see educated people blowing themselves up.

Because we know there are details lost in the translation, and there may be some reason historically why inheritance is treated differently, but somehow that kinda stuff doesn't add up to an explanation. Some authors have suggested that the clash (or "bloody borders") between Islam and other is due to the nature of Islam--what do you think is the fundamental issue?

To some degree, certainly modern muslims have a very 'dark age' mentality. Some of thier beliefs and practices toward islam can even be viewed as pre-Islamic.
Vencenzo olivetti(damn my spelling) talks about prostitution and a recruitment tool for terrorism, very unislamic.

Samuel Huntingtons 'clash of civilizations' wasn't just talking about islam as some people paint it to be, it was a clash of chinese, indian and anything else that is nationalistically unique with overall 'western' ideology and thought now that the cold war was over.

The crap load of nationalistic calls of independence from many densily populated muslim countries and their explosion after 9/11 was a result of todays political climate, and according to Esposito...a remenant of the cold wars use of religious and ethnic nationalism against the communists , now turned somewhere else.

Sam was right in that regard. He was wrong in how he pigion holes western civilization and eastern civilations as if they were all in agreement. just what is westernized? The dutch are different from america, the canadians different from the russians. Same with 'east' what does a muslim in indonesia have in common with an Arab Muslim? Lots more different then the same, some arab Muslims would consider Indonesian ritualism and Sufism as sacrilege.
Also, arabs make up 20% of the total muslim population world wide, but some how have the loudest voices. Why i don't know.

I once posted an article about christians in palistine praying for a dying member of 'islamic jihad' in gaza. More politics in this then meets the eye as well as religion.

[AAAhmed46]

Here is a secular perspective:

http://www.secularmuslims.com/about.php


Athiest, agnostic ex-Muslims.

[IJ]

K. It's a big understanding, the Taliban are humble scholars, and Afghani election violence reminds you of Canada. Where mistakes were made, everyone else does it too. Got it.

[Jason Rees]

Her family, even some of her supporters came forward and debunked many of her claims. Even her book is laughably a horrible representation of Somalians and african muslims. Go talk to some of these Somalian woman born and raised in somalia. African woman are some of the most interesting ive met, very outspoken very individualistic. Tariq ali tore her book apart as well.

Her family? You mean the dad who was severely embarrassed when AHA fled the arranged marriage he set up, and insisted on, even after she told him how she felt about it? Or the mom, who insisted on AHA's sister coming back home and getting off the meds that would have kept her from committing suicide?

Her 'supporters,' the ones who liked her as a political candidate as long as she toed the line and kept her mouth shut?

And Tariq Ramadan, who argues that religious Islam can be made compatible with modern European democracy. Someone who travels around the world, giving this same schpeel (making his money doing so). Obviously he doesn't have an axe to grind when some uppity political scientist (and a women no less. Gasp) comes along and says Islam is incompatible with freedom-loving democracies.

You can claim they disagree with her. I know quite well some of the things they said about her. But if you want to claim they 'debunked' anything she said, you're going to have to prove it.

You met one whole person from Somalia, and not only did she cancel out AHA's personal story, she overrode it, eh? Sorry. A single anecdote does not a case make. AHA, Bruce Bawer, Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, and others didn't make this stuff up.

[AAAhmed46]

You met one whole person from Somalia, and not only did she cancel out AHA's personal story, she overrode it, eh? Sorry. A single anecdote does not a case make. AHA, Bruce Bawer, Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, and others didn't make this stuff up.

I met LOTS of Somalians. im muslim, i go to pray every friday and participate in community events. Lots of Somalians. There is a mosque in the north end of the city thats almost entirely somolian(other people are welcome, somali's just tend to gather there) it's a very salafi mosque, but the people there give a good sample of Somalians and Somalian culture. Asking them about their politics can be a mistake, it can get realllly confusing.

The reason i bring it up is that, a single womans story, one who has gained alot politically and financially from her claims, should not over ride claims of the common Somalian woman's story.

Her family? You mean the dad who was severely embarrassed when AHA fled the arranged marriage he set up, and insisted on, even after she told him how she felt about it? Or the mom, who insisted on AHA's sister coming back home and getting off the meds that would have kept her from committing suicide?

They didn't make this stuff up, but certainly generalizes ALOT, and talks as if her life is the typical life of a Somalian. I read up more details on her a long time ago, but haven't thought or argued about her in a long long time. So i have to admit you have me beat on her.
But ask yourself this, SHE claims this about her family. But where is the evidence? What about THEIR side of the story? Why is she more honest then they are?

Most of the names you mentioned i do not recognize, but i recognize Brigitte Gabriel.

Brigitte Gabriel for instance talks about how she was forced to leave lebanon because 'the muslims wanted to kill the infidels' she's right, they did force her out.

What she fails to mention is that among the muslims are lebanese Christians who resented the power her sect held over other lebanese. She talks about things that really happen with muslims and christians as an example of islam's super evil. But then fails to mention that many of her fellow christian arabs joined the cause of the muslims. if they hated the Christians, why are christians fighting by their side? She goes on John Hagee's show(notice how lots of these guys hang with Hagee/robertson?) and says muslim birthrates are large because they can marry 4 wives. But going to pakistan i have not met anyone with 4 wives, and my father went to hajj and Umra more then once, in saudi arabia only the very very rich and elite marry more then one wife, most saudis and muslims tend to stay with one spouse. They are not going to out breed anyone because of 4 wives.

They have lots of kids though, but usually only first generation immigrants from africa mostly, second generation muslims have 1 or two kids usually.


Hell look at this new movie based upon Gallup polls and 10 000 one on one interviews(no not all recorded on video but documented by Gallup)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFDyDHSlTfc

[AAAhmed46]

K. It's a big understanding, the Taliban are humble scholars, and Afghani election violence reminds you of Canada. Where mistakes were made, everyone else does it too. Got it.

I honestly thought your post was a sincere question, didn't know you were going to take me out of context. I responded sincerely thinking you were asking for my opinion.

I didn't say the Taliban were humble scholars, what i said was that they freely admitted to ignorance, yet still claimed to be a religious authority authority and dictate religious terms. I was critiquing them with their own admission of ignorance, as well as mentioning the nationalistic tribal influence for their actions.

And when i said "Canada'' im talking about canadian history when violence would break out over voting, when two sides intimidated each other.Political instability tends to make voting difficult, dangerous or painful. All over the world.

Im not talking modern day Canada.

Sure you can't forget how many other times, before the boogie man was a bunch brown people where the news talked about people threatened/attacked while voting? How many dictatorships were there in the last 50 years?

[AAAhmed46]

owever, last May a Dutch television documentary
suggested that while Ms Hirsi Ali did run away from a
marriage, her life was in no danger. The subsequent
uproar nearly cost Ms Hirsi Ali her Dutch citizenship,
which may be the reason why she is careful here to
re-state how much she feared her family when she first
arrived in the Netherlands. But the facts as she tells
them about the many chances she passed up to get out
of the marriage—how her father and his clan
disapproved of violence against women; how relatives
already in the Netherlands helped her to gain asylum;
and how her ex-husband peaceably agreed to a
divorce—hardly seem to bear her out.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not the first person to use false
pretences to try to find a better life in the West,
nor will she be the last. But the muddy account given
in this book of her so-called forced marriage becomes
more troubling when one considers that Ms Hirsi Ali
has built a career out of portraying herself as the
lifelong victim of fanatical Muslims.

Another, even more disturbing story concerns her
sister Haweya's sojourn in the Netherlands. In her
earlier book, “The Caged Virgin”, which came out last
year, Ms Hirsi Ali wrote that her sister came to the
Netherlands to avoid being “married off”. In
“Infidel”, however, she says Haweya came to recover
from an illicit affair with a married man that ended
in abortion. Ms Hirsi Ali helped Haweya make up
another fabricated story that gained her refugee
status, but the Netherlands offered her little
respite. After another affair and a further abortion,
Feb 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

http://www.economist.com/books/displays ... id=8663231



Haweya was put into a psychiatric hospital. Back in
Nairobi, she died from a miscarriage brought on by an
episode of religious frenzy. “It was the worst news of
my life,” Ms Hirsi Ali writes.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali blames Islam for the miseries of the
Muslim world. Her new autobiography shows that life is
too complex for that

SAY what you will about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she
fascinates. The Dutch-Somali politician, who has lived
under armed guard ever since a fatwa was issued
against her in 2004, is a chameleon of a woman. Just
11 years after she arrived in the Netherlands from
Africa, she rode into parliament on a wave of
anti-immigrant sentiment, only to leave again last
year, this time for America, after an uproar over lies
she had told to obtain asylum.

Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her
talent for reinvention. In the Netherlands, where Ms
Hirsi Ali got her start campaigning against the
oppression of Muslim women, the book has been
published under the title “My Freedom”. But in Britain
and in America, where she now has a fellowship at the
conservative American Enterprise Institute, it is
called “Infidel”. In it, she recounts how she and her
family made the cultural odyssey from nomadic to urban
life in Africa and how she eventually made the jump to
Europe and international celebrity as the world's most
famous critic of Islam.

Read as a modern coming-of-age story set in Africa,
the book has a certain charm. Read as a key to the
thinking of a woman who aspires to be the Muslim
Voltaire, it is more problematic. The facts as Ms
Hirsi Ali tells them here do not fit well either with
some of the stories she has told in the past or with
her tendency in her political writing to ascribe most
of the troubles of the Muslim world to Islam.

Ms Hirsi Ali's father, Hirsi Magan Isse, was one of
the first Somalis to study overseas in Italy and
America. He met his future wife, Asha, when she signed
up for a literacy class he taught during Somalia's
springtime of independence in the 1960s. The family's
troubles began in 1969, the year Ms Hirsi Ali was
born. That was also the year that Mohammed Siad Barre,
a Somali army commander, seized power in a military
coup. Hirsi Magan was descended from the traditional
rulers of the Darod, Somalia's second biggest clan.
Siad Barre, who hailed from a lesser Darod family,
feared and resented Ms Hirsi Ali's father's family,
she says. In 1972, Siad Barre had Hirsi Magan put in
prison from which he escaped three years later and
fled the country. Not until 1978 was the family
reunited with him.

As a young woman, Ms Hirsi Ali's mother, Asha, does
not seem to have inhabited “the virgin's cage” that
the author claims imprisons Muslim women around the
world. At the age of 15, she travelled by herself to
Aden where she got a job cleaning house for a British
woman. Despite her adventurous spirit, in Yemen and
later in the Gulf she found herself drawn to the stern
Wahhabi version of Islam that would later clash with
the more relaxed interpretation of Islam favoured by
Ms Hirsi Ali's father and many other Somalis. She and
Hirsi Magan fell out not long after the family moved
to Kenya in 1980. Hirsi Magan left to join a group of
Somali opposition politicians in exile in Ethiopia and
did not return to his family for ten years.

Ms Hirsi Ali says her mother had no idea how to raise
her children in a foreign city. She frequently beat
Ayaan and her sister, Haweya. Although they and their
brother, Mahad, attended some of Nairobi's best
schools, Haweya and Mahad dropped out early on. Ms
Hirsi Ali herself meanwhile fell under the sway of the
Muslim Brotherhood.

Some of the best passages in the book concern this
part of her life. As a teenager, Ms Hirsi Ali chose to
wear the all-encompassing black Arab veil, which was
unusual in cosmopolitan Nairobi. “Weirdly, it made me
feel like an individual. It sent out a message of
superiority,” she writes. Even as she wore it, Ms
Hirsi Ali was drawn in other directions. She read
English novels and flirted with a boy. Young
immigrants of any religion growing up with traditional
parents in a modern society will recognise her
confusion: “I was living on several levels in my
brain. There was kissing Kennedy; there was clan
honour; and there was Sister Aziza and God.”

Ms Hirsi Ali sounds less frank when she tells the
convoluted story of how and why she came to seek
asylum at the age of 22 in the Netherlands. She has
admitted in the past to changing her name and her age,
and to concocting a story for the Dutch authorities
about running away from Somalia's civil war. (In fact
she left from Kenya, where she had had refugee status
for ten years.) She has since justified those lies by
saying that she feared another kind of persecution:
the vengeance of her clan after she ran away from an
arranged marriage.

However, last May a Dutch television documentary
suggested that while Ms Hirsi Ali did run away from a
marriage, her life was in no danger. The subsequent
uproar nearly cost Ms Hirsi Ali her Dutch citizenship,
which may be the reason why she is careful here to
re-state how much she feared her family when she first
arrived in the Netherlands. But the facts as she tells
them about the many chances she passed up to get out
of the marriage—how her father and his clan
disapproved of violence against women; how relatives
already in the Netherlands helped her to gain asylum;
and how her ex-husband peaceably agreed to a
divorce—hardly seem to bear her out.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not the first person to use false
pretences to try to find a better life in the West,
nor will she be the last. But the muddy account given
in this book of her so-called forced marriage becomes
more troubling when one considers that Ms Hirsi Ali
has built a career out of portraying herself as the
lifelong victim of fanatical Muslims.

Another, even more disturbing story concerns her
sister Haweya's sojourn in the Netherlands. In her
earlier book, “The Caged Virgin”, which came out last
year, Ms Hirsi Ali wrote that her sister came to the
Netherlands to avoid being “married off”. In
“Infidel”, however, she says Haweya came to recover
from an illicit affair with a married man that ended
in abortion. Ms Hirsi Ali helped Haweya make up
another fabricated story that gained her refugee
status, but the Netherlands offered her little
respite. After another affair and a further abortion,
Haweya was put into a psychiatric hospital. Back in
Nairobi, she died from a miscarriage brought on by an
episode of religious frenzy. “It was the worst news of
my life,” Ms Hirsi Ali writes.


Mental illness, abortion, failed marriages, illicit
affairs and differing interpretations of religion:
much as she tries, the kind of problems that Ms Hirsi
Ali describes in “Infidel” are all too human to be
blamed entirely on Islam. Her book shows that her
life, like those of other Muslims, is more complex
than many people in the West may have realised. But
the West's tendency to seek simplistic explanations is
a weakness that Ms Hirsi Ali also shows she has been
happy to exploit.

..........................................................................................


I can't find that damn dutch documentary anywhere. Damn it.


.....................................................................................

Jason Burke in Rotterdam
Sunday May 21, 2006
The Observer

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/st ... 23,00.html


And then
a new documentary was broadcast on Dutch TV. It was
made by Gus van Dongen, an experienced TV journalist.
He travelled to Somalia and Kenya to interview members
of Hirsi Ali's family.

'There was no agenda,' van Dongen said last week. 'She
is a politician who had made much of her background,
telling one story. We set out to check those facts.
That is all.'

The TV programme, broadcast 10 days ago, highlighted
the fact that Hirsi Ali had falsified her original
asylum application in Holland, saying that she had not
come from war-torn Somalia as she claimed, but from
Kenya, where she had lived peacefully for 10 years.
The fact that she had lied was well-known, retorted
Hirsi Ali, making the point that was she was fleeing a
forced marriage. Not so, said van Dongen, using
testimony from her brother and husband to allege that
the marriage was not made under compulsion. Nor van
Dongen said, was Hirsi Ali raised in a strict Muslim
family.

(Were only seeing her side of the story, what if she is lying about her family? What if THEY are telling the truth? You assume she is right, that she is being honest. If she lied about her immigration from kenya, then what about her family and back story? Once again, she has gained alot, and has alot to lose. And why is HER book the cannon for life for woman in somolia?)

[Jason Rees]

Aaahmed, I can see you're going to take AHA's family's word over hers no matter what. That's fine. Just admit your bias and get it over with. They were the ones forcing her into the marraige, and would have been perfectly happy if she'd shut her mouth and did what she was told. Of course they have a vested interest in sounding civilized.

I'm still waiting for proof she made up 'half of it.'

[IJ]

Ahmed, you may have been talking about remote history in Canada, you may have been illustrating a flaw in the Taliban in your mind, but out here, your reply sounded like rationalization and everything softening the errors and flaws. Why even bring up remote Canada, for instance? What possible relevance other than to suggest that it's the same in largely white and Christian settings?

I see a lot more authority from people who condemn the condemnable and point out just as passionately where they think characterizations are unfair. Of course there are biased media accounts and anti-arab and islam perceptions out there.

Let me give you an analogy. I was talking about hospital medicine while driving the purchaser of my used car, as she had asked what we do, and what I thought of the healthcare law proposals and cost, and I explained a major project is getting people to receive the right clot prevention meds while hospitalized. I said we do a terrible job at this. The "pre" groups in trials of improvements have been 20-40% accuracy; at UCSD about 50% of eligible patients were getting the meds.* I said this was horrendous. I said it was inexcusable. I said each doctor and the system too were all accountable. I said no one would tolerate it for a second if the cars were made this way. I said insurance and medicare ought to refuse to pay for sloppy care so we get our act together. I said costs will never be controlled if we pay for garbage. I said I don't think suing is effective for righting wrongs or improving the hospital, BUT I can't blame a patient for doing so when they got the wrong care and had a bad outcome. I said we have an ethical obligation to do it better and that national focus should be on learning from high quality low cost areas and denying payment for bad care as an incentive.

It wasn't like, oh, we define ourselves as scholars and academicians and in Canada they have these problems, too. See what I mean? Reasonable people can differ on this stuff. Stories vary with the refugee lady, for example, but what you can do and ANY muslim can do is condemn, without qualification, all the Islamic associated mess that is plain to see and offer a corrective plan and THEN worry about some details where they're treated unfairly. I believe those people... I get along great with people who say they think the universe is 10,000 years old if they're at least honest that they know that's contrary to evidence and based on their personal faith. There's a refreshing honesty and introspection.

*we got that # to >95%--epub ahead of print!

[cxt]

AAAhmed

When you ask how much we knew about Islam prior to 9/11?

I'll answer---quite a bit actually.

I had friend that was a refugee from Afganistain....his whole family fled when the Taliban took over.

I also consider Spencer less a "hater" and more someone that is honestly scared of what he sees and reads and hears of the rhetoric that is coming out of all to many places in the "Islamic" world......rhetoric that is often followed by violence.

I would suggest that a good part of what is often viewed as being "anti-islam" by some is more of a very real fear of relgious wars----its often forgotten or overlooked that West was shaped in large part BY bitter, long lasting, incredibly violent---often near genocide... religion based and religious driven/fueled conflicts.

The USA was, in part, set up as a largely secular nation for the position of governence BECAUSE of the deep awareness of the bloody history of strife that differences in religion fanned in Old Europe.

If some fear Islam....and get labeled "haters" it might be because we---as "westerners" are bitterly aware of where such things can lead.

Religiously motivated violence is a situation we are all to familier with.