Hakatsuru Kata

[Bill Glasheen]

I found, for me, trying to tie everything to kata was restricting and just decided to try to learn using a different model.

Well it sounds to me like you are doing just fine.

FWIW, I'm not trying to tie kata to anything when I spend a good deal of my time in the weight room. I'm just training. I guess the same could be said when I work on mechanics, timing, and hand-eye coordination in the batting cage. The same also could be said when I go with Rich to the firing range. Working the force continuum BY DEFINITION tends to take you beyond the scope of kara-te.

On the other hand...

What were we talking about in the first place, Mike? It's the ability to get something to "happen" in a fight due to your training. That is the holy grail that we are all seeking, no?

You've got some people like Art Rabesa (you never met him) who are highly ranked Uechika and yet will tell you that they knew how to fight before they walked into a dojo. (Jimmy Malone and Van Canna probably fall into that category.) And then you have the vast majority of the rest of us who aren't prodigies of the combat arts. Those people need a process to get from soup to nuts.

Like you, Mike, I have had a colorful journey. I started in Nippon Shorin Ken with a intense (understatement of the year) Japanese. Then I picked up Uechi. And then there was my boxing training. And then I branched off into Goju and aikido because I bumped into a remarkable man. And there was my childhood sports (baseball and track, with a little bit of basketball). And Filipino arts. And Yang style tai chi. And the many stops on the force continuum (kobudo, knife/stick, firearms). Etc., etc.

At some point, a serious student of the arts needs to have a core to draw it all together. The biggest problem I found when on my journey is finding a way to remember it all. Whether in the classroom or on the street, the brain doesn't work so well when trying to retain and deliver mass quantities of unrelated material. It screams for structure like the circle of fifths in music or Maxwell's equations in physics.

I suspect that the common thread that ties a Bill Glasheen, an Art Rabesa, a Van Canna, and a Jimmy Malone together is a need to tie all that "stuff" into a simple set of principles. From that standpoint, kata isn't a "be all, end all." It is a means to a very important end. IF you find that this same set of principles get ground deeper and deeper and deeper in your brain every time you see something new and worthwhile in the universe of martial ways, then maybe you are on to the path of that holy grail.

There's only one problem though. The structure and process are useless in the long run if you can't pass it on and reproduce the epiphany in the next generation. But that is the standard we should hold all martial ways to, IMO. Can you pass it on? Can you reproduce the success?

I've started working a few of my old Korean kata again but this time with the intent of just enjoying the movements, though I do notice applications in passing; honestly I couldn't even think of trying to add all of what you're doing to my simple movement practice, it'd make my head hurt and ruin my fun with all that thinking I'd have to do.

Actually you confirm my own approach when I hear you going through this mental journey.

Now I would be interested to see how your students work their kata and what insights of their own they bring to the practice. Seeing someone's personal break through in understanding this stuff and their approach to it is the part that's of interest to me. It's just more exciting to watch someone "get it".

One of the more fun experiences I had, Mike, was teaching Hamahiga no tonfa to Farino Furman. He was a Shotokan practitioner who came to train with me. Reno (nickname) put the time in and was always hungry for more. So I let him sit around in my advanced classes right from the beginning. He picked up the pace in no time at all.

Teaching him this tonfa kata was a classic example of working the principles. When I do Hamahiga no tonfa, I see Uechi Ryu Seisan. When Reno did it, he saw Bassai. Actually I saw the Bassai as well, because I had done it years back in Nippon Shorin Ken. Before I was done with this project the two of us saw all three kata as manifestations of the same theme. And that was just before he went north and got his shodan (test held at Khoury's dojo). Van remarked on how good Reno looked on that test.

At some point... you begin to see myriad manifestations of the same core movements. And the more variations you see on the same theme, the more your body "gets" it. And when you get it this way, then you are free of the specifics of any single form. Rather the forms serve to remind you of the underlying principles that hopefully you are assimilating and making your own.

- Bill

[NEB]

Created by Gogen Yamaguchi, performed here by his son Goshi in Germany. Sorry for the goofy music, but this was some sort of public performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epJmi01CTc4

[MikeK]

What were we talking about in the first place, Mike? It's the ability to get something to "happen" in a fight due to your training. That is the holy grail that we are all seeking, no?

At some point, a serious student of the arts needs to have a core to draw it all together. The biggest problem I found when on my journey is finding a way to remember it all. Whether in the classroom or on the street, the brain doesn't work so well when trying to retain and deliver mass quantities of unrelated material. It screams for structure like the circle of fifths in music or Maxwell's equations in physics.

Who says it's unrelated material or that the core can't be internal to the person rather than a particular karate style? I'm not to saying it can't be, different strokes and all that, but some of it stems from perspective. My view of what a martial art is, is broad and trying to put that view into someone elses core would be difficult.

There's only one problem though. The structure and process are useless in the long run if you can't pass it on and reproduce the epiphany in the next generation. But that is the standard we should hold all martial ways to, IMO. Can you pass it on? Can you reproduce the success?

Right, but I don't see consistent epiphanies happening from karate training but rather a passing on of mimicking of the teacher (which I think is normal for most artists). We could blame the student but I think more responsibility is on the instructors who rely on the traditions of karate rather than actively working with a student to get him to the aha point. I think the epiphany moment should also be the beginning of the student's breaking away from the instructor and making the skill set truly his own.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good post, Mike.

As a musician, I thought perhaps the circle of fifths would be something you could relate to. My brother got a degree in music at UVa before graduating to a job as a bartender, working at Merke long enough to retire early, reading the law, and becoming a general practice attorney in C'ville. And wouldn't you know that he was fooling around taking guitar lessons in his 50s when his music teacher begged him to replace a keyboard guy they had just fired in their band. My brother could do it because that music theory had stuck. Three decades after the academic work, he walked into a band and got his first job as a professional musician. He wasn't even that good a keyboardist! The rest is history. And he loves what he does.

Does he do Circle of Fifths Ryu? Nope... But the theory stuck. The music is now his own.

I am proud of him, and secretly jealous as well.

My view of what a martial art is, is broad and trying to put that view into someone elses core would be difficult.

Fair enough. But do you agree that building some kind of structure for your knowledge is important? And do you agree that there are very few "new" ideas in martial arts?

BTW, it would be difficult to say that Van, George, Raffi, Dana and I have the same "core". In fact we most definitely don't. Each has drawn from a highly individualized set of experiences. But we do share some of the same tools when building our own respective cores.

The reason why I like the Sanchin-based material of Uechi is because it is so simple and so nonspecific. It can be taken in so many different directions. As I have traveled on my own journey, I am fascinated by what I find useful to retain, and what I find I must shed to keep my material congruent and in working order.

- Bill

[NEB]

I don't see consistent epiphanies happening from karate training but rather a passing on of mimicking of the teacher (which I think is normal for most artists).

Coming from the perspective of a student, rather than that of a teacher, as I believe many of you posting here are, I can see a worthwhile point to be made here. In the very beginning of my practice I knew very little. I had seen very little in the way of kata, or any other aspect of karate training. And I was impressed by a lot of what I saw. Now I have far more experience under my belt, I have seen hundreds of hours of video and live training and am inspired by a far smaller set of practitioners. This, I believe, is all pretty normal. As we mature, our perceptions and preferences become more discerning.

Often during a lesson, my teacher will break out some video or other of one of the masters doing kata. He sees something in that person's form that has value, something that he wants me to get. I can see it too. I bring up Senaga a lot because he's one of the primary examples we draw from. There is something in his kata that if attained will advance one's karate overall. Its a joy to watch him: His spirit, his love for what he's doing and his power and connectedness. If I were the sensei, every student (say, from shodan and above) would have to watch Senaga doing kata. And yes, try to emulate what he sees. I believe a good example to emulate later, at a more mature level that we are now with me would be master Uechi.

So I think the point I'm making is that its normal to emulate your teacher, as Mike stated, for a certain amount of time. Eventually that personal touch, that individuality can be added, or better said, the art can become one's own. Of course, one problem comes from mimicking teachers that have too many flaws in their own karate. And I have seen plenty of that! Its disheartening to see a black-belt level instructor leading a class exhibiting lousy basics. Even though they may very well be of some unrelated style of karate (or other MA), I can see it. Does that sort of thing come from mimicking their teacher? Or just lazy training and even lazier direction with too little correction? Is it arrogant or judgmental of me to think this way? After all, I try to emulate my teacher wherever I can.

As a student, you just don't know, and its a matter of luck weather you wind up at a good school or not, IMHO.

[Bill Glasheen]

I thought these two statements juxtaposed against each other were rather revealing.

I don't see consistent epiphanies happening from karate training but rather a passing on of mimicking of the teacher (which I think is normal for most artists).

This to me, Mike, is a truism irrespective of whether the approach is "traditional" or "something else." But you know that...

And finally... Emphasis is my own.

If I were the sensei, every student (say, from shodan and above) would have to watch Senaga doing kata. And yes, try to emulate what he sees.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought. - Matsuo Basho


- Bill

[NEB]

Interesting.

There really is a lot more to Sanchin kata happening internally than perhaps what you can see. And regardless of that, who knows what my sensei can see that I cannot? Let alone what Senaga is doing that maybe neither of us can see? (Although I believe for a lot of reasons that my instructor has the depth of experience and understanding to see and perceive what is going on.)

Its a great point.

That's why I do kata the way I am told, and I believe that its the prudent way to go until such a time when I realize the things fully, if that day ever comes.

The larger question is, perhaps, How deep does kata go? Is really this unattainable, almost mysterious journey that can take one to Martial Art Awakening? Or just a bunch of movements we do to get some kind of endurance and muscle memory? Or somewhere in-between?

What are the principles that kata is supposed to teach us?

What are the principles of Uechi Ryu?

[Bill Glasheen]

The larger question is, perhaps, How deep does kata go?

The best metaphor I can think of is of an onion. You can pull it apart at any point. And wherever you choose to separate the layers, there will be other layers underneath.

You are going to view your kata different ways at different stages of your journey. There may be times where you temporarily reject them. But when you come back with a fresh perspective, you'll see something there that was staring right at you and yet you never saw it before.

This IMO doesn't happen on autopilot. It's sort of like my journey with organic chemistry. I could read the chapters all I wanted and memorize to my heart's content - and still fail all my tests. I never really learned any organic chemistry until I started working problems at the back of the chapter, and putting my hands to it all in the lab. Because I gave a good chunk of my life for an entire academic year working every problem at the end of every chapter, I did very well in it. I couldn't have done well any other way. I'm not that smart. At some point, you have to enter that school of hard knocks with your material. That's where the hundreds upon hundreds of mini epiphanies happen.

What are the principles that kata is supposed to teach us?

What are the principles of Uechi Ryu?

Where do you want to start?

I'll list just a few.

• Here's one that is almost universal to martial arts. Power starts at or comes primarily from the core. And when I say core, I mean the large muscles in the trunk and thighs.
• Make your trained movement blend with what your body naturally will do when facing a life-threatening event. For example... Other than the guy trying to save his beer and his money, what do you see? Go from person to person, and see if what they are doing looks something like what you do in the dojo.
  
  
  
  Are these flinch postures like some postures you know? What would they look like if ever-so-slightly stylized from training?
• When lacking an ability to hit with maximum energy, concentrate the energy on as small a surface area as possible.
• Control your center. And as you learn how to control your own, learn how to disrupt that of your opponent.
• Use force multipliers when possible. When using force multipliers, reflex points are superior to pain points. Why? Some people don't feel pain when under the influence of adrenaline and/or drugs.
• When grappling, apply basic laws of mechanics.
• It's easier to rotate someone about their center than it is to move their center.
• You react faster to what you feel than what you see. Keep that in mind when up close and personal.
• True martial movement is about functioning while experiencing the Survival Stress Reaction.

I could go on and on and on.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

When looking through the baseball files for pictures of flinch responses (bats flying into crowds), I came across this one. What fascinates me is the little baby in the lower center of the photo. Even at that age, a crude and quite effective flinch response is there that looks... familiar.



Those postures would be familiar both to Uechika and to those experienced in the art of ukemi.

What part of a posture do you see in the woman left of the baby who is holding the cup?

As for the guy in the green shirt, well... We have a candidate for The Darwin Award!

- Bill

[mhosea]

These photos also illustrate the Uechi principle of not spilling your drink.

[Bill Glasheen]

Priorities, priorities. Not gonna spill my bloody beer, eh?

- Bill

[MikeK]

The larger question is, perhaps, How deep does kata go? Is really this unattainable, almost mysterious journey that can take one to Martial Art Awakening? Or just a bunch of movements we do to get some kind of endurance and muscle memory? Or somewhere in-between?

Hi Nels, A different perspective here (again); kata isn't deep at all, it's the person that brings things into the kata and not the other way around. I don't understand why it would be unattainable or a mysterious journey, if it was it would make it a strange training tool.

Fair enough. But do you agree that building some kind of structure for your knowledge is important? And do you agree that there are very few "new" ideas in martial arts?

Agree that there are no new ideas, though people can see something as new if it's outside their experience. You see this a lot at seminars (Raffi's comes to mind). As far as structure for knowledge, I don't know if it's important. I deal with using and creating frameworks on a regular basis, and one of the things that always comes up is that each one will restrict you in some way, which is also one of the reasons for using them. Currently I've been passively avoiding putting what I'm doing into a box, but this may be because I'm still adding to what I'm doing.

As I have traveled on my own journey, I am fascinated by what I find useful to retain, and what I find I must shed to keep my material congruent and in working order.

Care to elaborate on that? Right now I'm still adding new ways of looking and using things and trying not to shed any material, and while some does get put on the back burner for awhile it's still easily brought forward. In the future that could change, but for now...

[fivedragons]

Posted By Mike K: " I don't understand why it would be unattainable or a mysterious journey, if it was it would make it a strange training tool."

Thank you, this drives me crazy. Life is a mysterious journey, and sure karate, like anything else can be plumbed to whatever depths or heights one wants to take it to. But every once in a while, I need to remind myself that contrary to what I was once led to believe by the commercially institutionalized, westernized, hollywoodized "mystique" of Asian martial arts, it's just a cultural mindset applied to learning how to hurt people, and a holistic way of approaching mental, spiritual and physical learning/growth.

Posted by Mike and Bill: "Originally posted by Bill Glasheen: As I have traveled on my own journey, I am fascinated by what I find useful to retain, and what I find I must shed to keep my material congruent and in working order.


Mike:
"Care to elaborate on that? Right now I'm still adding new ways of looking and using things and trying not to shed any material, and while some does get put on the back burner for awhile it's still easily brought forward. In the future that could change, but for now..."

This drives me crazy also. I've learned things from different people, with different stylistic labels and viewpoints, and I view it is the same thing done different ways. Or different things done the same way.

If I looked at everything I've ever been taught as hermetically sealed packages of karate, I'd be hopelessly confused and unable to move my arms.

Nothing I have ever learned conflicts in any way with anything else, because I take everything I learn from somebody else and use it to expand my awareness of what is possible, for me to do, in my own way, with my own body and mind, and my own particular flair.

I don't care about techniques, I just care about learning more about myself and others. Sometimes spending the time to learn a technique or absorb someone's ideas can help me gain understanding, and then you can let go of the box you've been exploring and go back to being yourself.

I spent the time to learn a few basic forms from different cultural geographic and stylistic backgrounds. The way I do them, they all are related to uechi sanchin, and to each other. I don't care how anyone else might practice or perform them, I just know for myself that no matter what particular movement I might get into and enjoy at the moment, it is part and parcel of a bigger picture, and I don't honestly feel like I am somehow shifting gears or whatever. Christ, what I'm trying to say is that I do everything the same way, and as I progress, everything comes along for the ride.

[NEB]

Thank you, this drives me crazy. Life is a mysterious journey, and sure karate, like anything else can be plumbed to whatever depths or heights one wants to take it to. But every once in a while, I need to remind myself that contrary to what I was once led to believe by the commercially institutionalized, westernized, hollywoodized "mystique" of Asian martial arts, it's just a cultural mindset applied to learning how to hurt people, and a holistic way of approaching mental, spiritual and physical learning/growth.

Understand that I am not saying that there is anything "spiritual" about martial arts ... far from it. But since, as you pointed out, its something espoused by Holly-and-Bollywood as well as Hong Kong films along with all varieties of Kung Fu Hucksters it needed to be mentioned.

[NEB]

Bill,

Interesting reply. Thanks for attempting to answer that question. Your examples are quite clear. People have a natural "flinch" reaction to sudden threats that arise. Call it nature's little gift to us allowing us to get out trouble without having to think about it. Its a point that I have raised on these forums a couple years ago on a thread relating to blocking (and how ineffective blocking is). I maintained that its possible to to find blocking techniques that are tight and small enough to get off in time (given reasonable range), that take advantage of the natural flinch. This isn't a new concept. I had had an episode in my car whereby I stomped on the brake and swerved the wheel to avoid an accident, all pretty much automatically . Just like the reactions of the baseball fans (except for maybe our Darwinian friend (oops)). Take the natural flinch reaction and hone it a certain way and you get ... voila ... blocks.

Anyway, good points, I hope some more from a few others are forthcoming.