Would you train with........

Bone · Post by **Bone** » Tue May 13, 2003 2:52 am

I have seenthis topic on the grappling boards and was curious at to how it would go on here:

Could you train with an openly gay man and/or female? Would it effect your training in any way?

Bone · Post by **Bone** » Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

I'll go first so no oine thinks I am setting them up.

I think that the odds are that you either are currnelty traiing w/soemone who is gay or have in the past and just do not know it. The fact that they are gay would not affect my training in any way.

However, I have been "hit" on before by a gay man and he made me feel dirty! I know how some girls must feel. So as long as if they were to make a pass at me and respected my answer of no then no problems, gays don't bother me I have had three close freinds come out of the closet to me...none of them have ever hit on me. The only people that make me uncompfortable are load people therefore loud and flamboyant gay people make me feel a little uneasy.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 13, 2003 3:53 am

I'm pleased to train with anyone who's serious about training. I've even trained with people who were openly hetro

Laird

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue May 13, 2003 5:25 am

this is a joke right ?

wont training with gays make my wrist buckle when i punch , and make me Kiai with a lisp

*IF ANYONE DOES NOT DETECT SARCASIM SEEK HELP*

people are people period , if someone doesn`t take no for an answer thats a sexuall harassment issue regardless of gender .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 13, 2003 5:50 am

Stryke wrote:this is a joke right ?

Must be!

On the other hand had the the question been, "Would you train with an Auzzie who openly wore a French rugby shirt to your dojo" you might have to do some soul searching.

Laird

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:42 am

err we`re very openminded and tolerant down here Laird

But i`m not sure how they`d make the dojo , they`d certainly need the training , maybe we`d just do some rugby style training , a good rucking or tackling drills

heh that reminds me , we do have a French guy training with us , we had a grading a few weeks ago , we matched him up with an expat Limey , man it was er entertaining , all in good fun of course .....

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue May 13, 2003 12:55 pm

Wouldn't bother me at all.
A freind made a great statement (regarding working in the music industry)...
"There are three things you can't be:
Rascist,
Homophobic
and Late!
NM

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Tue May 13, 2003 4:38 pm

I think this is a legitimate question women have to answer, in our variation of it at least. Yes...I admit..I'm openly female. See my eyes?

So, :::putting on a straight face:::

I'm going to try and be serious for a moment.

Since I have yet to see or hear about an entirely female martial arts group, I think women have to decide going in if they can train with men. For me, this works well to overcome any nervousness or fears I have about defending myself. That's why I'm in MAs. I intentionally try to work with the biggest, scariest guys around, knowing that if I can overcome their gender, size, and strength factors as well as the fear, then I'm that much closer to making MAs work when I need them.

The mental game is a huge part of getting through a confrontation. That's been well illustrated by examples on other threads. It sounds like the guys that made you (Bone) "feel dirty" won the mental fight simply by psyching you out with something that threw your mental/emotional balance off. Maybe they did it just for that reason. Maybe guys should intentionally work that side of the mental game in training too? I dunno.

Now for the joke side..... In training, hands and body parts land in interesting locations for both people and we can end up in very interesting positions. I'm not sure if that is a compliment, insult, or just part of the fun as a fringe benefit! I try to laugh my way through most of it. Do men get distracted by wiggles and jiggles when working with women? :::looking innocent:::

LeAnn

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Tue May 13, 2003 5:47 pm

Bone, your question is a setup. I suppose it could turn into an innocent poll, but I think it will turn into: Either you are against homosexuality or not. Either way, they're going to argue about it pointlessly, and either way you are just downright obnoxious to tell the other side they're wrong. What? you can't tell someone their religous beliefs are wrong! It's just as bad to try to impose your religious beliefs on someone else.

Everyone needs to mind their own damn business unless someone is getting hurt*.

"or just part of the fun as a fringe benefit!"

It's definetly part of the fun!,

and I've had many a hot date due to meeting someone in training. I can't stand being in training halls were it's not appropriate to laugh or smile or talk to someone (I also can't stand it when that's ALL people do.)

*In an illegal way. It's your damn right to be as rascist or sexist etc. as you want to be until you start doing something illegal with it.

Bone · Post by **Bone** » Tue May 13, 2003 6:36 pm

[quote="TSDguy"]Bone, your question is a setup. I suppose it could turn into an innocent poll, but I think it will turn into: Either you are against homosexuality or not. Either way, they're going to argue about it pointlessly, and either way you are just downright obnoxious to tell the other side they're wrong. What? you can't tell someone their religous beliefs are wrong! It's just as bad to try to impose your religious beliefs on someone else.

Everyone needs to mind their own damn business unless someone is getting hurt*.

Dude, can you tell me what the lotto numbers are going to be tomorrow since you are able to not only "read my mind" but tell me what I have in plans for the future!!!

First off if I was going to argue either way then why would I post that I have no problems with homosexuality? I posted an interesting topic, so I thought. Man lighten up a bit.

The few other post lean towards that stand up arts have less of a problem with homosexuality then the grapplers, WHICH IS WHAT I WAS CURIOUS OF!!

I think that grapplers in general are more homophobic. This is probably due to grapplers being in even closer personnel space and awkaward postions.

I found grappling to expose my claustraphobia due to being pinned on the ground unable to escape, out of wind and with somebody on top of you dripping sweat and passing gas on you-I know it sounds like fun huh? Contray to that when standing and sparring with others I do not fell panicky even if cornered on the mat or ring I might be gettign the beejezus knocked out of me, but I don't have that pressure that grappling presents of not being able to "leave" when I want to.

Anybody else feel that way-BTW THIS IS NOT A SET UP.

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:16 pm

Bone wrote: I think that grapplers in general are more homophobic. This is probably due to grapplers being in even closer personnel space and awkaward postions.

... being pinned on the ground unable to escape, out of wind and with somebody on top of you dripping sweat and passing gas on you-I know it sounds like fun huh? Contray to that when standing and sparring with others I do not fell panicky even if cornered on the mat or ring I might be gettign the beejezus knocked out of me, but I don't have that pressure that grappling presents of not being able to "leave" when I want to.

Anybody else feel that way-BTW THIS IS NOT A SET UP.

"Dude," welcome to the realities of self defense. You didn't mention one particular kind of training you wanted this answered for, nor did anyone that I see specifically address one kind or another. That aside, do you honestly think that a real assailant will respect ANY of your personal space, regardless of being male or female, gay/lesbian or straight? If you do, then you have a mistaken impression of "how it really goes down." And the whole lack of escape route thing is precisely why anyone needs to defend themself. If you can leave, why fight?

If practice panics you, maybe you should do more of what panics you so you are prepared if it ever happens for real, regardless of if the person attacking you is gay or straight. It doesn't make a difference that I can see, except in your own mind. If it does there, then you have already lost the fight.

Le'

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:40 pm

Bone, not a setup for you to attack, a setup for someone else to attack. I understood you wanted "an innocent poll" but that will never happen, especially if you've followed any previous threads on this topic. It's like the chi threads. Someone will say they don't want a gay mounting their leg and someone else will call them a homophobe. I'm not mad at you or anything, I don't know where your rant came from.

Post by **gmattson** » Tue May 13, 2003 9:40 pm

Bone wrote:I have seenthis topic on the grappling boards and was curious at to how it would go on here:

Could you train with an openly gay man and/or female? Would it effect your training in any way?

Although "Bone" mentioned that this question came up on Grappling Boards, I don't think many of us "stand-up" martial artist caught the whole point of his question. Now that he clarified the issue, I suspect that many will be answering the question (to themselves mostly), differently.

In a "stand-up" system, this issue isn't something people think about, which is why a few of the posts questioned "Bone's" seriousness.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue May 13, 2003 9:43 pm

Considering the controversial potential of this thread, I am pleased it has turned out as informative and entertaining as it has.

Let me start by saying this is a difficult topic from many points of view, and I support (and will defend) almost everything that has been written here. I have strong Libertarian trendancies. This means I think the government has no business in either my back OR my front pocket.

This also means that neither Democrat nor Republican "gets" my point of view. I also believe in Jeffersonian principles, including the right to speak freely. This means I will defend someone's right to make an ass of themselves, as long as they cause (or incite) no harm to others. Well to make a long story short, the views expressed here make me feel pretty good about our community.

I think that Bone has no reason to feel badly about any comments made so far, even if they aren't exactly right (or "correct"). Look - this is a topic that is difficult from the get-go. Let's just cut each other some slack, and appreciate that we are viewing what people REALLY think. And while I may not like the way some people think - and might actually say so - I cannot change anyone's own personal reality, nor can I really control the way they think inside. Therefore it might be best on a topic like this to turn the "PC" filter down a bit and appreciate that we're actually getting the truth rather than what people think we want to hear.

But we also should consider some of Bone's initial comments in the discussion along with his later objections. They're really quite informative, and we should appreciate HIS sincerity.

I have been "hit" on before by a gay man and he made me feel dirty! I know how some girls must feel. So as long as if they were to make a pass at me and respected my answer of no then no problems, gays don't bother me I have had three close freinds come out of the closet to me...none of them have ever hit on me. The only people that make me uncompfortable are load people therefore loud and flamboyant gay people make me feel a little uneasy.

How refreshing it is to see such feelings and opinions openly expressed!

Look, we have quite a few "flaming heterosexuals" among us. Heck, when I see some of these people hitting on women, they make ME feel uncomfortable. As was stated before, harassment is harassment.

But it's also worth mentioning that some of these gay on straight feelings are somewhat universal, and particularly prevalent in young men. Let's face it - sexually active gay men prefer hitting on young men (irrespective of what their orientation might actually be). It's also true that young men are far from psychologically mature in many ways. This creates a problem. I still remember the countless times I was hit on as a young man, and the resentment I felt.

It actually took a long time before I evolved to an emotion free response to it all. Actually a great sense of humor helps, along with the wisdom that life's vicissitudes imparts on us. But then by now, I don't get hit on any more. Such is life. LeAnn, I think you hit on some very important ideas here. But then you missed a thing or two that only someone who has "been there" would appreciate.

Actually though I think there are some angles here not considered. You see, sometimes a half empty glass is also half full. Now when it comes down to getting down on the floor and grinding it with a partner, do you know who I feel gives me the best "intellectually rewarding" experience? A lesbian - particularly one I care for (and vice versa). I have several such martial and nonmartial friends, and have found such relationships to be uniquely rewarding. When I grapple with a lesbian and we end up ... er ... grinding and grabbing places, well we know it's not personal and it won't go anywhere. For me, I'm more comfortable being in a "compromising position" with a female, and yet it's not intellectually distracting if the potential for sex is out of the picture. Go figure...

But then we're also talking about such a partner without emotional baggage. Heck, there are quite a few from any gender or orientation on that account, so maybe the issue goes beyond a male-hetero-with-a-lesbian combination.

Actually though this goes beyond just being in the dojo. I'm a person that likes to "touch", but most people have hangups with this. I'll hug and touch anyone. But then I don't "mean anything by it." Usually...

I guess it's complicated.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue May 13, 2003 10:00 pm

Along the lines of frankness (PC filter turned off), I think there are some very real considerations here.

It is a fact that grapplers are at greater risk of contracting a number of different contageous diseases (dermatologic as well as classically "blood born") than are strikers. Body lice, impetago, scabies, staph infections, herpes and the like are common problems with those in the wrestling business. Additionally, anyone dealing with cuts has to be concerned with hepatitis and HIV.

It is a fact that gay men are - statistically speaking - FAR more promiscuous than are heterosexuals (of either gender) or lesbians.

It is a fact that promiscuity increases one's risk for acquiring diseases of both the clasically "sexually transmitted" variety as well as illnesses that aren't considered as classic STDs. And beyond masturbation, there's no such thing as "safe sex." Saf-er sex is the best you can do.

So, you do the statistics. You follow the logic. Sorry, PC-ites, reality bites. Disease is real, it hurts, and it can kill. Even if the increased risk is more perception than reality (like in the airplane vs. car travel safety thing), perceptions drive behavior.

Food for thought in the discussion.

- Bill

Would you train with........

Would you train with........

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