This is kind of a weird thought, I didn't even know if it is appropriate or would be offensive; Dana, please flush this if it's too off base:
Does learning Karate mean learning to fight like a man, even if you are a woman?
How would men feel about a Dojo where they were taught to "fight like a girl"?(There are legitimate styles like Wing Chun and also a long-spear style which were started or directed to women, which obviously, men practice.)
For most men "...." like a girl is considered an insult or a put-down. Do women feel any obligation to become "man-like" in their style or can they perform the techniques in a way that is "womanly" to them and also maintain effectiveness?
I was just thinking about how Karate probably started as a man's method, and of course women got on board at some point.
I have trained with, and been taught by women, but never thought to ask the question before.
I feel like a chauvanist already, so let fly if you feel like it!
NM ( a guy.)
Throw like a girl, fight like a man.
Moderator: Available
To tell someone thay fight like a girl IS a beautiful interview fighting tactic designed to take some of the wind out of the sails on one you are getting ready to pound upon to make your job easier.How would men feel about a Dojo where they were taught to "fight like a girl"?(
But for purely self-offense, to teach someone how to "fight like a woman" is a GOOD thing; such as to claw, to bite, to gouge, to rip. to poke, to pinch, and more, and to do so with wanton abandon. And woman-to-woman interviews can be frightful as well. Watch two women go at it sometime, and you may wish you could fight like some of what they put into it -- a lot to learn there.
Try to break up two women who are going at it and you will learn how a woman can fight.
Two edges of the same sword.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Kevin Mackie
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Emphasis on "WILL"
Last edited by Kevin Mackie on Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
No female replies so far...
Sorry: I was not referring to how effective woman can fight, or the efficacy of their methods, or whether or not such methods were inferior or superior.
The question was:
"Does learning Karate mean learning to fight like a man, even if you are a woman?"
I only included the references to a Dojo where you learned to "fight like a girl" to give guys an idea as to what women might think walking into a "fight like a man" Dojo.
NM
Sorry: I was not referring to how effective woman can fight, or the efficacy of their methods, or whether or not such methods were inferior or superior.
The question was:
"Does learning Karate mean learning to fight like a man, even if you are a woman?"
I only included the references to a Dojo where you learned to "fight like a girl" to give guys an idea as to what women might think walking into a "fight like a man" Dojo.
NM
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Learning to fight with what you've got....
What Allen points out is that the main difference between fighting for men and women is what gets you to the fight. Once you're fighting - there are only so many ways to move the body to gain or lose mechantical or tactical advantage.
However, the mental and emotional components of the fight vary for men and women due to socialization, intent, need, situation, etc. You'll hear women fight "because my kids need me" or not fight for the same reason. In a karate school that only deals with the physical elements of fighting there really isn't much differentiation that should occur in the curriculum. Teachers may need to spend more time with women teaching them how to release their power and strike simply because men, in our society, tend to have more opportunitiesn and encouragement to hit/strike out physcially whereas women are encouraged to use verbal skills and refrain from physical altercations. (And some of this tendancy is simply nature - many boys like to wrestles and play fight more than many girls)
But if a karate school is going to teach verbal self defense, scenario training, multiple attackers situations, and weapons then more differentiation is necessary IMHO. The verbal and physical interview process for a man/man fight, a man/woman fight, and a woman/woman fight are all very different and also differ depending on the age and location of the altercation.
Two high school girls fighting over a boy is going to be pretty similar to two high school boys fighting over a girl in the interview process. Two men fighting in a bar of a woman and a man attacking a woman in a parking garage are going to have very different interview components.
Finallly - there's the emotional side of things. Many women and girls only get hit in life as punishment. We get spanked when we do something wrong, slapped when we offend, etc. While the same thing happens to men and boys, men and boys often also have the opportunity to experience hitting in "play" environments. So a karate teacher should be aware of the kind of potential kinds of background stuff a woman could walk in the door with. So that they understand that when a woman starts to engage in fighting for fun they need some time to reprogram parts of their brain that got wired to "hitting means you did something wrong" and now need to be wired into "hitting can be a fun and enjoyable practice and ultimately could save your life if SOMEONE ELSE is doing something wrong."
So I guess my answer is that if a karate teacher expects a woman to "fight like a man" on all three levels - physical, emotional, spiritual - then they're mistaken. Other than that, fighting is fighting.
Why would women have "come on board later" to karate? That has more to do with partiachical repression than anything else and men using mechanical advantage to mandate societal advantage. But thankfully - that is changing.
PS - kevin, can you edit your picture so it's a bit smaller and doesn't blow out the formatting on this thread? Thanks, Dana
What Allen points out is that the main difference between fighting for men and women is what gets you to the fight. Once you're fighting - there are only so many ways to move the body to gain or lose mechantical or tactical advantage.
However, the mental and emotional components of the fight vary for men and women due to socialization, intent, need, situation, etc. You'll hear women fight "because my kids need me" or not fight for the same reason. In a karate school that only deals with the physical elements of fighting there really isn't much differentiation that should occur in the curriculum. Teachers may need to spend more time with women teaching them how to release their power and strike simply because men, in our society, tend to have more opportunitiesn and encouragement to hit/strike out physcially whereas women are encouraged to use verbal skills and refrain from physical altercations. (And some of this tendancy is simply nature - many boys like to wrestles and play fight more than many girls)
But if a karate school is going to teach verbal self defense, scenario training, multiple attackers situations, and weapons then more differentiation is necessary IMHO. The verbal and physical interview process for a man/man fight, a man/woman fight, and a woman/woman fight are all very different and also differ depending on the age and location of the altercation.
Two high school girls fighting over a boy is going to be pretty similar to two high school boys fighting over a girl in the interview process. Two men fighting in a bar of a woman and a man attacking a woman in a parking garage are going to have very different interview components.
Finallly - there's the emotional side of things. Many women and girls only get hit in life as punishment. We get spanked when we do something wrong, slapped when we offend, etc. While the same thing happens to men and boys, men and boys often also have the opportunity to experience hitting in "play" environments. So a karate teacher should be aware of the kind of potential kinds of background stuff a woman could walk in the door with. So that they understand that when a woman starts to engage in fighting for fun they need some time to reprogram parts of their brain that got wired to "hitting means you did something wrong" and now need to be wired into "hitting can be a fun and enjoyable practice and ultimately could save your life if SOMEONE ELSE is doing something wrong."
So I guess my answer is that if a karate teacher expects a woman to "fight like a man" on all three levels - physical, emotional, spiritual - then they're mistaken. Other than that, fighting is fighting.
Why would women have "come on board later" to karate? That has more to do with partiachical repression than anything else and men using mechanical advantage to mandate societal advantage. But thankfully - that is changing.
PS - kevin, can you edit your picture so it's a bit smaller and doesn't blow out the formatting on this thread? Thanks, Dana
Dana:
A well-considered answer!
Just a couple of quick questions...
I'm not sure what you mean by "fighting for fun"--does that mean deriving pleasure from hitting/being hit?
Or did you mean that Karate is just fighting for fun?
(I don't think I could agree with that!)
Also,
"If a karate teacher expects a woman to "fight like a man" on all three levels - physical, emotional, spiritual - then they're mistaken. Other than that, fighting is fighting. "
Other than "all three levels", what else is there?
PS: I assume you meant "patriarchical".
Respectfully;
NM
A well-considered answer!
Just a couple of quick questions...
I'm not sure what you mean by "fighting for fun"--does that mean deriving pleasure from hitting/being hit?
Or did you mean that Karate is just fighting for fun?
(I don't think I could agree with that!)
Also,
"If a karate teacher expects a woman to "fight like a man" on all three levels - physical, emotional, spiritual - then they're mistaken. Other than that, fighting is fighting. "
Other than "all three levels", what else is there?
PS: I assume you meant "patriarchical".
Respectfully;
NM
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
"fighting for fun" refers to the forums where you train to learn more about martial arts without putting yourself at risk for death on a regular basis. So by that I mean people who train the martial arts for pleasure at appointed dates, times, and places versus thugs who regularly get into fights on the street.
On the second point - what I mean is that if a teacher thinks a woman will fight mentally and spiritually like a man they're mistaken. Everything else is just body mechanics. But is takes the head and heart to use the body - and men and women will get there different ways.
And yes, I did mean "patriarchical" I was just typing way too quickly and didn't edit my post before I put it up.
thanks,
Dana
On the second point - what I mean is that if a teacher thinks a woman will fight mentally and spiritually like a man they're mistaken. Everything else is just body mechanics. But is takes the head and heart to use the body - and men and women will get there different ways.
And yes, I did mean "patriarchical" I was just typing way too quickly and didn't edit my post before I put it up.
thanks,
Dana
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Allen,
Gosh I wish I knew! If I knew how to get women engaged in martial arts and engaged in combat as practice I think I'd have a pretty big business on my hands.
So I can only share with you a few observations and one qualification.
My qualification is that I think that women MArtists different most from male MArtists at the beginning. Unless they trained as children, most women simply don't have the shared experience of "play fighting" or rough housing" to the extent of most men. So that's the beginning of the divide.
Now for observations:
Cardio Kickboxing exploded in this country for women in particular. Why? I have to say it has alot to do with the fact that it was presented in the aerobic class format (already familiar to women) it didn't involve physical contact, there wasn't a ran/testing system, so there wasn't a "standard" for performance or tests - you just came in and worked out. It was very smartly marketed by big names, it sold "empowerment" and early on it made what I think is the mistaken of selling "self-defense" by having women give testimonitals that they now felt more confident that they could protect themselves. (And since mind-set is a bit part of fighting it's likely that their confidence would translate into some greater success in a self-defense situation but I don't think it's the same thing as some good toe to toe contact training).
So the cardio kickboxing craze captured many women who might otherwise have considered other martial arts trainingw - but when for the more welcoming, less threatening environment.
I think this says alot about how women get to fighting a different way than men. Not in a clear bullet point way - but as a general subtext that women engage in training differently. And it also says alot about how martial arts schools/teachers need to improve their marketing messages and possibly even their training format if they want to attract more women into their art.
Dana
Gosh I wish I knew! If I knew how to get women engaged in martial arts and engaged in combat as practice I think I'd have a pretty big business on my hands.
So I can only share with you a few observations and one qualification.
My qualification is that I think that women MArtists different most from male MArtists at the beginning. Unless they trained as children, most women simply don't have the shared experience of "play fighting" or rough housing" to the extent of most men. So that's the beginning of the divide.
Now for observations:
Cardio Kickboxing exploded in this country for women in particular. Why? I have to say it has alot to do with the fact that it was presented in the aerobic class format (already familiar to women) it didn't involve physical contact, there wasn't a ran/testing system, so there wasn't a "standard" for performance or tests - you just came in and worked out. It was very smartly marketed by big names, it sold "empowerment" and early on it made what I think is the mistaken of selling "self-defense" by having women give testimonitals that they now felt more confident that they could protect themselves. (And since mind-set is a bit part of fighting it's likely that their confidence would translate into some greater success in a self-defense situation but I don't think it's the same thing as some good toe to toe contact training).
So the cardio kickboxing craze captured many women who might otherwise have considered other martial arts trainingw - but when for the more welcoming, less threatening environment.
I think this says alot about how women get to fighting a different way than men. Not in a clear bullet point way - but as a general subtext that women engage in training differently. And it also says alot about how martial arts schools/teachers need to improve their marketing messages and possibly even their training format if they want to attract more women into their art.
Dana
Thanx Dana. Not being a woman I don't know how women think. Everytime I get it all figured out there seems to be a new curve entered into the complex equation.
For a guy, fistfighting is a natural instinct going all the way back to my cave-man days. To avoid agony on this one I'll stop here.
It must be in the genes, that's all. Much more deep than rough-housing although tom-boys probably defeat the gene theory.
You've covered cardio-kb for women, and I couldn't agree with you more. It's a starting place to learn offensive security for those who have none or little, for sure.
In mixed gender classes, guys are not going to push the girls around as they do other make karateka. I know I didn't in the days I was gung-ho about fighting, etc.
Now, Dana, that leaves a female-only dojo. Sounds to me to be the place for women to develop their skills without outside interference. What do they do to fight like a man or do they just learn how to fight according to their own instincts with due disregard to learning how to fight like a man?
For a guy, fistfighting is a natural instinct going all the way back to my cave-man days. To avoid agony on this one I'll stop here.
It must be in the genes, that's all. Much more deep than rough-housing although tom-boys probably defeat the gene theory.
You've covered cardio-kb for women, and I couldn't agree with you more. It's a starting place to learn offensive security for those who have none or little, for sure.
In mixed gender classes, guys are not going to push the girls around as they do other make karateka. I know I didn't in the days I was gung-ho about fighting, etc.
Now, Dana, that leaves a female-only dojo. Sounds to me to be the place for women to develop their skills without outside interference. What do they do to fight like a man or do they just learn how to fight according to their own instincts with due disregard to learning how to fight like a man?
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
NM.
Maybe I shoud bow out of these discussions. In my resposes I often pick at things leaving no turn unstoned, rather no stone unturned and from a man's viewpoint as well. That is I purposely often raise tough questions as well as provide tough answers. Maybe this style of resourcefulness is not what they want to read rather I should take the confidence building approach and supply only uplifting responses. I find that sometimes when one's intent is to be helpful his thoughts and words are not taken in the intended context and twisted out of focus to mean something entirely different to the reader.Where are the ladies?
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Nobody is going anywhere...
This is a forum to discuss issues about women in training. Men and women both have thoughts and men and women are welcome to post. Period.
One of the reasons that more women don't post on this forums is that there are simply fewer women in Uechi. Uechi hasn't always been a particularly popular style with women - for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
A few instructors hit too hard, too quickly and blasted women out of their dojo. A few may have used offensive langugae without knowing it was offensive to women. Or, if only one woman or two women have joined a school - somtimes you just get tired of being the only woman in class. You want a cohort, a peer group.
There are many all-women dojo and martial arts schools in the country. A higher percentage out in California for some reason. There are women martial arts camps, tournatments, etc. Is an all women dojo a good idea, is an all men dojo a good idea, are dojo where some classes are separate and some together a good idea? I dunno. Seems to depend more on the instructor than on the style. Some instructors seems to attack and keep women and others don't. I wish I knew why.
Dana
One of the reasons that more women don't post on this forums is that there are simply fewer women in Uechi. Uechi hasn't always been a particularly popular style with women - for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread.
A few instructors hit too hard, too quickly and blasted women out of their dojo. A few may have used offensive langugae without knowing it was offensive to women. Or, if only one woman or two women have joined a school - somtimes you just get tired of being the only woman in class. You want a cohort, a peer group.
There are many all-women dojo and martial arts schools in the country. A higher percentage out in California for some reason. There are women martial arts camps, tournatments, etc. Is an all women dojo a good idea, is an all men dojo a good idea, are dojo where some classes are separate and some together a good idea? I dunno. Seems to depend more on the instructor than on the style. Some instructors seems to attack and keep women and others don't. I wish I knew why.
Dana
