Thoughts on an article?

[Valkenar]

Here's my attempt at a link, sorry if it doesn't work out:
<a href="http://www.tufffemme.com/VeryThat/43020 ... ">Feminist Approach To Teaching Self Defense</a>

If that didn't work, the url is http://www.tufffemme.com/VeryThat/4302000vt.html

I found it interesting, what do you folks think?

[Dana Sheets]

Whew! That one's got a lots of loaded language in it.

Women have been excluded from martial arts either directly or indirectly for most of its history.

Is a broad and incorrect claim. This may be an accurate statement for certain time periods and certain places - but it's not a categorical truth.

In other words, women cannot decide to stop being victims without understanding their victimization. This is exactly why a feminist approach to teaching women's Self Defense is absolutely key.

Is a very narrow viewpoint regarding mindset. Women don't have a corner on the market of being victims. Many men also have a victim mindset. So the real need in a self-defense course is to get anyone, not just women, to get out of the passive mindset and into an active one.

That might happen differently for men or women but since there's no published research on THE ONE AND ONLY effective way to get folks out of the victim mindset I have trouble with her claim that a feminist self-defense course will be the magically delicious answer to all your victim woes.

Nor does she ever really identify what a "feminist" self-defense course really is. She only briefly mentioned that it has to do with getting women to not see themselves as victims.

So I'd say the article leaves alot to be desired. At the same time it does speak to the fact that women and men may approach self-defense differently - it just doesn't offer any real answers as to what to do about that.

Dana

[KZMiller]

Very reminiscent of a couple of women who came to a dojo I studied at. They came with no pretense of open mindset whatsoever. They came to prove to themselves that it was a testosterone poisoned dojo like 'all the others' and wanted to argue their agenda with all who would listen. I was there with one of the senior students and everyone else had gone home, so although I was the only woman in class, for that moment at least the ratio was 50/50 as near as they could tell. This didn't stop them from telling Dan what a pig he was and that he and his ilk only let women in the class so that they could keep us down and breed inferior martial artists.

Normally I'm pretty wordy (obviously ) but I was speechless most of the time. Finally I got a word in edgewise and asked if they'd like to join, as it was a very fine school and they could learn a lot. At that point they decided I obviously liked being oppressed and left.

Some people can't see past the agenda at the end of their noses.

Kami

[Deep Sea]

When women enter places where man rules, especially pugilistic ones, they are presented with a number of obstacles to overcome. More than what i wrote below, maybe, but these immediately come to mind, and are the primary ones I've noticed in my travels:

Mind you, Dana, those are NOT my views; I think you know me well enough by now -- I think you know I like women in the dojo. However, in some places, especially in harder-hitting, harder-fighting places, the following attitudes are often prevalent:

1) Women are often considered as nothing more than sex objects.
2) Good-looking/sexy-looking women, especially women who move like women, in a dojo do nothing more than distract the focusing of male energies and thoughts. Therefore are not wanted there.
3) Women are too small and too weak to be considered worthy karate partners.
4) Women just water-down the adgenda and screw things up for everyone else.

Strong words, but NOT mine, because I have found many worthy women partners through the years.

--------

Add on:
After posting the above, I read the article three more times and began to absorb what was behind the words of the article. To make my writing brief, the following is one small example:

Women must first value themselves enough to want to defend themselves,

Overall, it is my opinion that the author speaks for herself and what she is going through. But examine the quote out of context without the subjectiveness that surrounds it, and I discovered several important things. Here are a few.
1) Most women I know place good, solid value upon themselves. I see that attribute all the time and I like it. Except for a handful with a fighting mindset, most have no clue of defending themselves, nor do they give that issue more than passingly unconcerned thoughts.
2) Many people, maybe most, don't care to fight, don't know how to fight, are afraid of fighting, have no concept, etc. In this context, fighting carries the same connotation as defending oneself. While that may be true of those with low esteem [or self-value, or whatever else you want to call it], that attribute is not indiginous to the low esteemers.

FYI: Pardon me, Dana, if I have edited this online multiple times before this paragraph, as I have neither a spelling checker nor a grammar checker, and have to read and reread my work several times in larger print because of poor vision and poor typing skills.

[Dana Sheets]

I think you make several very solid points. Especially...

2) Many people, maybe most, don't care to fight, don't know how to fight, are afraid of fighting, have no concept, etc. In this context, fighting carries the same connotation as defending oneself. While that may be true of those with low esteem [or self-value, or whatever else you want to call it], that attribute is not indiginous to the low esteemers.

Calls attention to the question of "appropriate" fighting. If I walk out of my office and slug my co-worker because my computer crashed - that's obviously not appropriate fighting. However - if an angry co-worker approaches me to grope my chest and I hit them to stop their advance after my verbal defenses fail - then I've done what I consider to be "appropriate" fighting.

Also I think that many times women "let things go" a little further than men before they have a strong reaction to a situation. But that's just my opinion. The bad part of this is that sometimes by the time a woman is ready to engage they're already too far behind the game to be able to defend themselves effectively.

An example of this would be in a bar where a woman lets a guy get in very close, almost nose to nose, while she's backed up against the bar even though her gut told her that this guy is trouble. Now she's fighting an uphill battle because she doesn't have any room to maneuver.

So perhaps somehow women and men get different messages along the way that construct each one's definition of when it's OK to get physical to defend yourself. Obviously this is a generalization. And I'd love to be able to pinpoint where most of those messages come from (parents/school/church/media) so we can figure out how to send a strong message to women to more actively defend their interests.

This wouldn't just help with self-defense. I'd hazard a guess that it could also help close the pay and benefit gaps between male and female US workers.

[KZMiller]

I think part of the reason a lot of women don't 'fight' is because a lot of men are taught to not hit women, and it's a very ingrained thing. Women are not likely to be dragged into a brawl with Joe Had a Bad Day. The physicality of a man vs. woman and visa versa is very different than man vs. man and woman vs. woman. Women might have a victim mindset, but in our society they're protected from being victims the majority of the time by men who have been taught from birth to defend women from evil men. Defending his fellow man seems to fall more into the catagory of 'if he's smaller and can't defend himself' or 'if he's outnumbered'.

I'm kind of thinking aloud here so sorry if I'm way off base.

It also seems to me that violence against women is a specialized thing with 'experts' in rape, domestic abuse and inappropriate sexuality, all which seem sex related. Violence against men seems to be more non-gender related violence (mugging, robbery, assault, etc. all of which can happen to anyone) or postering/territory issues, which are gender related so far as they're establishing a pecking order or blowing off rage. I think some of the assaults, the 'bar brawl' and such are oddly more public and even accepted with a kind of 'guys just do that' attitude in some circles (or even considered fun) where the violence against women tends to be more private and only considered manly or fun in private circles of degenerates. Thoughts?

Kami

[Deep Sea]

Calls attention to the question of "appropriate" fighting.

If I walk out of my office and slug my co-worker because my computer crashed - that's obviously not appropriate fighting.

An at minimum, appropriately fired.

However - if an angry co-worker approaches me to grope my chest and I hit them to stop their advance after my verbal defenses fail - then I've done what I consider to be "appropriate" fighting.

Not sure if “angry” is the word, but whatever happened the ole fadhioned slap in the face? I thought that still worked.

Also I think that many times women "let things go" a little further than men before they have a strong reaction to a situation. But that's just my opinion.

You’re probably right on, Dana. Although my experience in bars and clubs goes back many years and is pretty much forgotten, I still remember a few things. Many women who do the scene know when and where to draw the line if not interested. I knew when to back off if I was wasting my time, but remember others just keep pushing their luck way past their queue to leave.

The bad part of this is that sometimes by the time a woman is ready to engage they're already too far behind the game to be able to defend themselves effectively.

An example of this would be in a bar where a woman lets a guy get in very close, almost nose to nose, while she's backed up against the bar even though her gut told her that this guy is trouble. Now she's fighting an uphill battle because she doesn't have any room to maneuver.

See, Dana, whenever I got that close the preliminaries were over. I can’t understand where a woman would let someone get that close without having given all the proper signals.

So perhaps somehow women and men get different messages along the way that construct each one's definition of when it's OK to get physical to defend yourself.

I figure that a woman inherently knows what she is supposed to do.

Obviously this is a generalization. And I'd love to be able to pinpoint where most of those messages come from (parents/school/church/media) so we can figure out how to send a strong message to women to more actively defend their interests.

As far as I'm concerned, women know how to send out the signals they want to send out automatically. Whether those signal register automatically in the male is another storey.

This wouldn't just help with self-defense. I'd hazard a guess that it could also help close the pay and benefit gaps between male and female US workers.

So your bottom line, therefore has nothing to do with women defending themselves against unwanted male physical advantages, rather it has to do with the extraction of money -- of which women are good at anyway.

[2Green]

"So your bottom line, therefore has nothing to do with women defending themselves against unwanted male physical advantages, rather it has to do with the extraction of money -- of which women are good at anyway.
_________________
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen"


WHAT???!!!

NM

[Deep Sea]

Shheeezzz!!! I hope I didn't offend anyone because none was intended.

Took me by surprise, but that was my immediate and lasting [and only] thought when Dana's last paragraph -- bottom line? -- suddenly switched from self-defense to the pay gap between male and female workers. I simply could not draw the connection between the two otherwise.

[Stryke]

I got that the paralell was a lack of assertiveness in self defence and in the work place

It`s an interesting notion .

[Dana Sheets]

Most women stick up for themselves in social settings, but some don't. Most women stick up for themselvies in work settings, but there's still a major gap between pay for women and men.
Most women stick up for themselves in domestic settings, but enough don't that there's lots of help and information out there for battered women.

What I'm looking at is if there is some kind of pattern that can be identified - or if all these things happen for reasons that aren't connected.