hate anger rage

[benzocaine]

Does any one else feel these emotions when viewing what has happened to our fellow Americans in Iraq??

When I see things like this it puts a different face on those people. And I am sorry but at this moment I'd just as soon see the entire region turned into a sheet of glass. Or see that guy in the bottom with the big grin?? I hate him. Never met him, but I hate him. See how the crowd is estatic , and see how the burnt body is hung from the bridge.



Bill if this is inapropriate for the forum I am sorry.

[RACastanet]

I am definitely with you on this Ben. Yep, make Fallujah a big parking lot.

In addition, I have close friends preparing to depart for that town as I type. May our God be with them.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill if this is inapropriate for the forum I am sorry.

Ben, you spoke from the heart. You said what many think. As long as we view our emotions for what they are and avoid personal attacks against each other, then discussing these feelings is very much an important topic for these forums.

Consider, Ben, what the people who perpetrated these acts intended with their actions. They wanted the attention, and posed for the nearby cameras. They - the ousted, brutal Sunni/Baathist minority - wanted to vent their hatred of the American occupiers. But they also wish to make the U.S. run via their terror - the way Americans did repeatedly in the 1980s and 1990s. These residents of the Sunni Triangle wanted you to react, Ben.

What will be the U.S. response? The military? The civilian?

What will we learn from it all?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

"We have to understand that there are cities in Iraq that are going to be losers, and the people know they are going to be losers," says Anthony Cordesman, military expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Mostly slums by American standards, Fallujah doesn't boast a bevy of palaces. But the city's Sunni Muslims were among Saddam Hussein's favored. A military base, now occupied by Americans, is at the edge of town. Fallujah was home to top officers, spies and many low-level enforcers of Saddam's regime. Its construction and trucking companies also benefited.

Many of the city's 250,000 residents fumed when the United States overthrew Saddam and dissolved the Iraqi army.

[cxt]

What concerns me is that did what they did because they KNEW the response was NOT going to be turning the city into a blasted crater.

[benzocaine]

“Islam bans what was done to the bodies, but the Americans are as brutal as the youths who burned and mutilated the bodies,” said Mahdi Ahmed Saleh, a 61-year-old retired primary school principal who runs a grocery store.

Mohammed Mikhlef, a 45-year-old contractor, added: “We just do not know what the Americans will do now. But, by God, they are capable of so much cruelty.”from MSNBC

What Cruelty? WE ARE CRUEL???!!!

I guess Sadam was really a nice guy according to these idiots.

One big sheet of glass I say. The more I hear things like this , the more it becomes a black and white issue for me.

[Bill Glasheen]

From USA Today

"I feel ashamed for all of us in Iraq," he said, referring to images of Iraqis desecrating American bodies and hanging blackened corpses from a nearby bridge. "I am ashamed even for myself. Heathens would not approve of such acts. I only wish all of Iraqi people are not held responsible. It makes my skin shrink."

Many Iraqis in the capital reacted the same way most Americans did to the gruesome images broadcast around the world. They expressed revulsion and condemned the killings. After ambushing and killing four American contractors, a group of Iraqis on Wednesday burned the bodies in front of cameras and dragged the corpses through Fallujah.

Fallujah and the surrounding villages are viewed by many Iraqis as a backward region where violence and tribal law hold sway.

In Baghdad's upscale Mansour neighborhood, with its open-air cafes, new dress shops and gold dealers, people were quick to distance themselves from the brutalism in Fallujah.

"This is not Iraqi behavior," said boutique owner Mahmoud Noori al-Falahi. "It is a specific sect at work there. Iraqi people are very kind and merciful. We suffered yesterday just like the families of the Americans who were killed."

It's not the Iraqi people per se. These losers from Fallujah have been weaned from Saddam's teats. No more corrupt "oil for food" money. No more torturing the majority Shia or the Kurds. No more benefiting from nepotism.

The crater need not be that large...

- Bill

[Akil Todd Harvey]

About a year ago, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boastfully philosophized, "wouldn't it be wonderful if we could do for Iraq what we have done for Afghanistan?"

This might be an appropriate time for him to modify his statement somewhat — that is, unless he expects the U.S. to assist the Iraqis in bringing opium production into Iraq.

This administration has already succeeded, beyond Rumsfeld's wildest dreams, in just about destroying that country, watching their warlord tribal leaders continue to battle each other and cooperative people killed off systematically, and increasing their disrespect for America. What else does Rumsfeld have in mind at this time to assist the Iraqis so they can enjoy the freedom and democracy — forget security — that he and the other Bush "Vulcans" have bestowed on the people of Afghanistan?

June Maguire
Mission Viejo

Once again, it's obvious that the Bush administration, by erroneously focusing on Iraq, is losing the war on terrorism. President Bush put our country into a war of choice, not a war of necessity. Osama bin Laden predicted that the United States would conquer an Arab country for its oil, and we obligingly conquered an Arab country, giving Bin Laden even more credibility and support.

There weren't terrorists in Iraq before the U.S. invasion and occupation. There are now, and we are committed to a wasteful, expensive occupation with no end in sight. In so doing, we have alienated most of the rest of the world at a time when international support in the war against terrorism is critical. Most important of all, resources that should be used in Afghanistan, an actual hotbed of terrorism, are tied up in Iraq. With an enemy like Bush, Bin Laden has an unwitting friend.

Constance Giguere
Palos Verdes Peninsula

[Bill Glasheen]

What's your point, Akil?

First of all, the Afghans have been in the poppy trade for generations. The U.S. did not start that.

Second of all, we have the remnants of a brutal, secular, Baathist regime showing once again - through the mutilation of charred civilian bodies - exactly why it was a good thing to get rid of Sadaam and his corrupt cronies in the first place. And I might add that these civilians who were killed and violated - against any religious or civil code I know of - were there to help reconstruct Iraq. Real smart...

So do you also want to dance on their graves, Akil?

I have often defended (even welcomed) your right to express a minority point of view on this forum. Right now though I would advise you to think very carefully about the acts that have generated these feelings. It's one thing to have a cause. It's quite another to commit (or support) unspeakable acts in the name of that cause. Such behavior only generates support for the administration you despise so much. It only feeds the stereotypes that you wish not to be associated with.

- Bill

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Bill,

Ben, you spoke from the heart. You said what many think. As long as we view our emotions for what they are and avoid personal attacks against each other, then discussing these feelings is very much an important topic for these forums.

I have often defended (even welcomed) your right to express a minority point of view on this forum. Right now though I would advise you to think very carefully about the acts that have generated these feelings. It's one thing to have a cause. It's quite another to commit (or support) unspeakable acts in the name of that cause.

I urge you to reread what I posted. They are not in any way in support of the unspeakable acts, and my feelings come no less form the heart despite the fact that I chose someone else's words to depict what I wanted to say.

One big sheet of glass I say. The more I hear things like this , the more it becomes a black and white issue for me.

The crater need not be that large...

make Fallujah a big parking lot.

May our God be with them.

When I see things like this it puts a different face on those people. And I am sorry but at this moment I'd just as soon see the entire region turned into a sheet of glass. Or see that guy in the bottom with the big grin?? I hate him. Never met him, but I hate him. See how the crowd is estatic , and see how the burnt body is hung from the bridge.

What's your point, Akil?

I have many points to make. The point of the last post was that Invading Iraq on false pretenses has led to many bad consequences. The bad consequences for iraqis, interestingly, we are unaware of as we do not count Iraqi deaths.

So do you also want to dance on their graves, Akil?

Or should the question be how many of you want to dance on the graves of dead Iraqis?


Akil

[Akil Todd Harvey]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... t-opinions

The Bush administration is in the habit of waging personal vendettas against those who criticize its policies, but bit by bit the evidence is accumulating that the invasion of Iraq was among the worst blunders in U.S. history.

If the administration cannot recognize and admit its mistakes, it cannot correct its policies.

War is a false and misleading metaphor in the context of combating terrorism. The metaphor suited the purposes of the administration because it invoked our military might. But military actions require an identifiable target, preferably a state. As a result, the war on terrorism has been directed primarily against states like Afghanistan that are harboring terrorists, not at pursuing the terrorists themselves.

Imagine for a moment that Sept. 11 had been treated as a crime against humanity. We would have pursued Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan (hopefully with more success), but we would not have invaded Iraq. Nor would we today have our military struggling to perform police work in full combat gear, getting soldiers killed in the process.

This does not mean that we should not use military means to capture and bring terrorists to justice when appropriate. But to protect ourselves against terrorism, we need precautionary measures, awareness and intelligence gathering — all of which ultimately depend on the support of the populations among which terrorists operate. Declaring war on the very people we need to enlist against terrorism is a huge mistake. We are bound to create some innocent victims, and the more of them there are, the greater the resentment and the better the chances that some victims will turn into the next perpetrators.

On Sept. 11, the United States was the victim of a heinous crime, and the whole world expressed spontaneous and genuine sympathy. Since then, though we Americans are loath to admit it, the war on terrorism has claimed more innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq than were lost in the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. The comparison is rarely made in the U.S.: American lives are valued differently from the lives of foreigners, but the distinction is less obvious to people abroad.

The war on terrorism as pursued by the Bush administration is more likely to bring about a permanent state of war than an end to terrorism. Terrorists are invisible; therefore, they will never disappear. They will continue to provide a convenient pretext for the pursuit of American supremacy by military means. That, in turn, will continue to generate resistance, setting up a vicious circle of escalating violence.

The important thing to remember about terrorism is that it is a reflexive phenomenon. Its impact and development depend on the actions and reactions of the victims. If the victims react by turning into perpetrators, terrorism triumphs in the sense of engendering more and more violence. That is what the fanatically militant Islamists who perpetrated the Sept. 11 attacks must have hoped to achieve. By allowing a "war" on terrorism to become our principal preoccupation, we are playing straight into the terrorists' hands: They — not we — are setting our priorities.

The United States is the most powerful country on Earth. While it cannot impose its will on the world, nothing much can be done in the way of international cooperation without its leadership or at least active participation.

The United States has a greater degree of discretion in deciding the shape of the world than anybody else. Other countries don't have a choice: They must respond to U.S. policy. This imposes a unique responsibility on the United States: Our nation must concern itself with the well-being of the world. The United States is the only country that can take the lead in addressing problems that require collective action: preserving peace, assuring economic progress, protecting the environment and so on. Fighting terrorism and controlling weapons of mass destruction also fall into this category.

By using the war on terror as a pretext for asserting our military supremacy, we are embarking on an escalating spiral of terrorist/ counterterrorist violence. If instead we were to set an example of cooperative behavior, we could not only alleviate poverty, misery and injustice in the world, but also gain support for defending ourselves against terrorism. We will be the greatest beneficiaries if we do so.

[Bill Glasheen]

Akil

There is a difference between wantonly causing the deaths of thousands of innocents (9/11 - brought to you by your loving Al Quaeda and the Taliban regime that sheltered them)...and attacking miltary targets that declared war on you a decade back and perpetrated many acts of violence around the world before being counterattacked.

There is a differece between a regime that intentionally tortured, killed, and gassed thousands of its own (and even attempted to control world oil reserves)...and a regime - however flawed - that decided it had enough of being Iraqi cop (remember the no fly zone??) and attempted to give the country back to the people.

There is a difference between stealing billions of "oil for food" money to line your pockets and build palaces...and attempting to interrupt this thievery and all those that profited from it (other nations whom we all know by now). You think the French and Germans would have worked with us to settle things in Iraq? Think again. Follow the money...

Finally, there's a difference between expressing anger over civilians being charred to a crisp, dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge in front of cheering crowds...and expressing anger over those that feel righteous indignation over such barbarism (without any understanding of those sentiments). In the beginning of this thread, there was at least an attempt to reign in the emotional and focus the wrath on those who deserved it. There was a sincere concern right from the beginning over being emotionally hijacked, and the possible inappropriate response to it.

If you can't see the differences, then I don't have much in the way of sympathy for your views, or shall we say the views of others that you'd rather quote. I question U.S. Iraqi policy as well. But for the life of me, I cannot understand how you would ever want to associate yourself with such acts. I'm disappointed.

You want understanding? In the words of Covey, seek first to understand - then to be understood. I have at least attempted to understand "Muslim" views that you have expessed and defended. But I cannot support this. These are the acts of a small number of sociopathic losers. Take your glasses off and see these few individuals for what they are; they deserve all that comes their way. There can be no rationalization for behavior like this in a civil society. It's neither Democratic nor Republican. It's neither U.S. nor Arab. It's not principled behavior; it's sadistic murder.

I'm saddened that more killing will come of it.

- Bill

[Akil Todd Harvey]

And there is a vast difference between what I posted and what I have been accused of posting.

Any and all should feel free to read what I posted (I did not write these items but rather took them from a Newspaper published in this here land, the good 'ole U.S. of A.).

The important thing to remember about terrorism is that it is a reflexive phenomenon. Its impact and development depend on the actions and reactions of the victims. If the victims react by turning into perpetrators, terrorism triumphs in the sense of engendering more and more violence. That is what the fanatically militant Islamists who perpetrated the Sept. 11 attacks must have hoped to achieve. By allowing a "war" on terrorism to become our principal preoccupation, we are playing straight into the terrorists' hands: They — not we — are setting our priorities.

Now, if some want to turn Iraq into a vast sand pit, I see little difference between those indivudals and those who indiscriminantly fly airplanes into buildings, both are willing to be blinded by their hatred, anger and rage and are willing to take it out on innocent civilians.

The United States is the most powerful country on Earth. While it cannot impose its will on the world, nothing much can be done in the way of international cooperation without its leadership or at least active participation.

The United States has a greater degree of discretion in deciding the shape of the world than anybody else. Other countries don't have a choice: They must respond to U.S. policy. This imposes a unique responsibility on the United States: Our nation must concern itself with the well-being of the world. The United States is the only country that can take the lead in addressing problems that require collective action: preserving peace, assuring economic progress, protecting the environment and so on. Fighting terrorism and controlling weapons of mass destruction also fall into this category.

[benzocaine]

I see little difference between those indivudals and those who indiscriminantly fly airplanes into buildings, both are willing to be blinded by their hatred, anger and rage and are willing to take it out on innocent civilians.

Not sure if you are refering to me or not but any ways, I'd like to explain something.

I don't really want to turn Iraq into a big sheet of glass.. but I sometimes feel anger boiling up inside of me.. and when I see images of Americans being stung up and their charred limbs thrown over telephone wire like a pair of old sneakers.. and the Iraqis dancing and cheering in the street, you know what??? For a few split seconds I think about the stock piles of nuclear weapons we have and how easy it would be to wipe that skid mark called Iraq off the face of the earth. You know why?? Because they are MY people. My fellow Americans.

[Bill Glasheen]

If the victims react by turning into perpetrators, terrorism triumphs in the sense of engendering more and more violence. That is what the fanatically militant Islamists who perpetrated the Sept. 11 attacks must have hoped to achieve.

Wrong!! This individual should spend some time reading the preachings of Bin Laden. He was encouraged to attack more because we did not react in the 1980s and 1990s, and instead fled. He was under the impression that Americans would run whenever they lost any lives. He did not count on us ever attacking his "safe" sanction in Afghanistan.

Furthermore those that seek to make Iraq unstable by violence hope that they can instigate factional fighting and make Amercians run. It appears so far that they have not been successful, and some of the lieutenants of Al Qaeda have reported as such.

One must distinguish oneself from the pure evil of Al Qaeda and the low life tribalists in Saddam's Fallujah. But that doesn't mean one should seek to appease or otherwise turn the other cheek when thugs break the laws of a civilized society. That only encourages these hate-filled sociopaths.

I'm all for a measured, precise, and brutal response - at the time of our choosing. That's a justifiable act of self defense, Akil. Those that seek to continue the violence towards innocents (INTENTIONALLY seeking these "soft" targets) must be eliminated if Iraqis are to have any peace. What happens at this point may not be pleasant or pretty, but it beats any alternatives I've seen mentioned.

- Bill