Respecting Karateka's opinions, I started a new thread where we can discuss the non-religious aspects of Zen.
So, no "Zen-versus-"fill in the blank" religion, just the aspects of Zen itself.
I read a litle story once where a student asks an old master "What is Zen?"
The master replies "Zen is the cloud in the sky, and the water in the cup!"
How's that for an obscure answer? Does it mean anything?
I started thinking about it and came to this conclusion:
The cloud in the sky is water. It exists as a vapor because in its environment that is the natural form it must take. It is natural for water in the sky to exist as a cloud.
The water in the cup is the very same substance, but has a completely different form. It is condensed into liquid, bound by gravity, conformed to the shape which holds it, yet it is exactly the same substance as the water in the cloud.
See? No religion at all, but a very astute summation of how things can share a RELATIONSHIP to each other in ways which are not apparent.
Zen also involves motion and perception of motion. It involves the power of visualization to perform physical feats. It describes the symbiosis of thought and human motion, whether in archery, martial arts, driving, skiing; take your pick of many.
So there is lots to explore without invoking any religious overtones at all, and this is how I pursue Zen. Just an insight-revealing way of seeing and quantifying the physical world around us and how we interact with it via our thought processes.
NM
Zen,Pt. II
Moderator: Available
maybe the problem is in the name Zen. so lets call it something else.
lets call it mind, body, and environment connection. MBC for short.
to difine MBEC.
a non-religious practice that has the aim of unifing a persons mind and body actions in connection to his/her outside suroundings.
this is a mind state that the samurai had a great value for. it has the abiltity to reduce mental stress. including the stress of combat (ie.. the chemical cocktail) it also has the ability to ruduce post -traumatic stress disorder.
in a real combat situation if you do not have a single-minded focus and concentration you are a dead man walking. without MBEC your mind can not react in a smooth flow of action from one situation to another. instead it locks into the self fear, and will tend to focus on either the action of the threat (ie.. the knife instead of the attacker) or the mind will get stuck on the bodys own reaction. having the effect of slowing the already to late 1/4 sec. reaction time. in order for the body to react, the mind has to go thru though O.O.D.A. (observe,orient, decide,then act) history has proven that MBEC can reduce this lag time.
MBEC is NOT a definition of such a state of mind and connection but rather a direct and defined practice that works to bring about such sought after results. thru a tried and tested program,, where on the contrary many people in the martial arts will also gain such results thru their daily training but it is haphazzard, not a defined program and results are mearly a bi-product of their training.
Hoshin
~~~~~
lets call it mind, body, and environment connection. MBC for short.
to difine MBEC.
a non-religious practice that has the aim of unifing a persons mind and body actions in connection to his/her outside suroundings.
this is a mind state that the samurai had a great value for. it has the abiltity to reduce mental stress. including the stress of combat (ie.. the chemical cocktail) it also has the ability to ruduce post -traumatic stress disorder.
in a real combat situation if you do not have a single-minded focus and concentration you are a dead man walking. without MBEC your mind can not react in a smooth flow of action from one situation to another. instead it locks into the self fear, and will tend to focus on either the action of the threat (ie.. the knife instead of the attacker) or the mind will get stuck on the bodys own reaction. having the effect of slowing the already to late 1/4 sec. reaction time. in order for the body to react, the mind has to go thru though O.O.D.A. (observe,orient, decide,then act) history has proven that MBEC can reduce this lag time.
MBEC is NOT a definition of such a state of mind and connection but rather a direct and defined practice that works to bring about such sought after results. thru a tried and tested program,, where on the contrary many people in the martial arts will also gain such results thru their daily training but it is haphazzard, not a defined program and results are mearly a bi-product of their training.
Hoshin
~~~~~
I think one of the most important aspects of MBEC (nice term!) is awareness and living in the moment. By letting our minds constantly wander and submerging ourselves in internal (and honestly not very real) environments of past, future and potential, we are more vulnerable to attack. An important chunk of self-defense is noticing we're going into a bad area, about to be assaulted or hello-let's-wake-up-now! that we're being assaulted and need to do something about it. There's not a lot of room for the classic victim's denial if we are aware of what's going on and stop self-talking ourselves into believing we're safe or someplace else or we're going to die and there's nothing we can do about it. We can also stop self-talking about feeling unsafe all the time if we unleash our powers of observation and see if there really is a threat or if we're jumping at shadows, which greatly reduces stress levels and coincidentally cues predators that we aren't easy marks.
So: MBEC can help us with increased awareness, cut out the self-talk and as a neat side-benefit, allow us to live more fully since we don't get dragged into imaginary problems all the time. It's very powerful to deal with what's in front of you. Wish I had the discipline to do it full time!
That's my take on it, anyway.
Kami
So: MBEC can help us with increased awareness, cut out the self-talk and as a neat side-benefit, allow us to live more fully since we don't get dragged into imaginary problems all the time. It's very powerful to deal with what's in front of you. Wish I had the discipline to do it full time!
That's my take on it, anyway.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
many people will mistakenly think that MBEC is a solitary quieting of the mind. this is not nessisarily so. the best type of practice is in a group. the japanese term for energy is Kiai. in a group setting the Kiai of the room can be amazing (think in your own MA training do you find it more energizing in a full class or doing kata alone at home)
there are also three positions of practice,, standing, sitting and prone position as well as the two states of being,, static (not moving) and mobile.
by using MBEC training under these conditions you can be well rounded. if you only practice in one area you will find it difficult to bring your training into your everyday life.
Hoshin
~~~~`
there are also three positions of practice,, standing, sitting and prone position as well as the two states of being,, static (not moving) and mobile.
by using MBEC training under these conditions you can be well rounded. if you only practice in one area you will find it difficult to bring your training into your everyday life.
Hoshin
~~~~`
Have you guys ever read Mr. Mattson's descriptions of "the grasping mind" and "the reflecting mind"? This description is in "The Way of Karate", or the "black book" as some call it because the cover is black.
It's an awesome description of what KZMiller is writing about, and it covers both the physical and mental interpretations.
Perhaps Mr. Mattson (GEM) could quote it here for us; I believe it's as relevant now as the day it was written.
I think it's a very "Zen" concept, and I have seen examples of both aspects of it in many Karate classes.
If Mr. Mattson declines, I'll take a stab at posting it, with his permission.
...Sir?
NM
It's an awesome description of what KZMiller is writing about, and it covers both the physical and mental interpretations.
Perhaps Mr. Mattson (GEM) could quote it here for us; I believe it's as relevant now as the day it was written.
I think it's a very "Zen" concept, and I have seen examples of both aspects of it in many Karate classes.
If Mr. Mattson declines, I'll take a stab at posting it, with his permission.
...Sir?
NM
Thanks Mr. Mattson...here goes:
Page 62, The Way Of Karate, GEM
"A contemplative mind is a mind that reflects events as they actually occur. This mind is most capable of finding appropriate solutions or counteractions to cope with the situation. A feigned movement will not affect his person's mind so that he will lose his centre of balance in an attempt to deflect an attack that in reality does not exist. ..."
"...A grasping mind, however, contains preconcieved thoughts about events that in reality exist only in the grasping mind.This person sees the beginning of an attack and immediately "sees" the whole attack in his mind.In other words, this person grasps a complete thought about an uncompleted event.The grasping mind directs an appropriate technique for the preconceived attack.His body directs the technique to the attack, even though the attack was in reality completed ONLY in his OWN mind." GEM
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There; now to me, that's a very Zen principle, and haven't we all seen/been examples of it both in the Dojo and daily life? I sure have.
Reacting to the a$$hole who cut you off in traffic only to see that it's a little old lady who didn't see you at all?
Reacting to "phantom insults" which were never directed at you at all?
Playing out the boss's grilling, and what your responses/defenses will be, only to find out you were commended, not reprimanded?
Drill partners in the dojo who chase every technique with a block?
If anyone here has not read "Zen in the Martial Arts" by (I think) Joe Hyams, do yourself a favour and read it. Totally non-religious personal experience. A small book.
I also recommend "Zen Driving" by K.T.Berger, Ballantine publisher, ISBN 0-345-35350-1. Also a small book.
I personally see Zen as a way of:
1: Moving physically in the world in relation to every other moving/non-moving thing, whether in driving, walking, standing, fighting, resting or any other state;
2: Moving mentally in the world in relation to every other mentally active entity you react with;
3: Observing the physical relationships/interactions of all natural bodies (birds, planets, raindrops, volcanoes, opponents, etc.) with each other and you: the Self.
It's no surprise that to me that this concept became interwoven with the Martial Arts; it fits so perfectly and is SO relevant in the concepts of motion, power, grace, attitude and responsibility.
To me it's a view of Nature as only a human can view it.
NM
Page 62, The Way Of Karate, GEM
"A contemplative mind is a mind that reflects events as they actually occur. This mind is most capable of finding appropriate solutions or counteractions to cope with the situation. A feigned movement will not affect his person's mind so that he will lose his centre of balance in an attempt to deflect an attack that in reality does not exist. ..."
"...A grasping mind, however, contains preconcieved thoughts about events that in reality exist only in the grasping mind.This person sees the beginning of an attack and immediately "sees" the whole attack in his mind.In other words, this person grasps a complete thought about an uncompleted event.The grasping mind directs an appropriate technique for the preconceived attack.His body directs the technique to the attack, even though the attack was in reality completed ONLY in his OWN mind." GEM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There; now to me, that's a very Zen principle, and haven't we all seen/been examples of it both in the Dojo and daily life? I sure have.
Reacting to the a$$hole who cut you off in traffic only to see that it's a little old lady who didn't see you at all?
Reacting to "phantom insults" which were never directed at you at all?
Playing out the boss's grilling, and what your responses/defenses will be, only to find out you were commended, not reprimanded?
Drill partners in the dojo who chase every technique with a block?
If anyone here has not read "Zen in the Martial Arts" by (I think) Joe Hyams, do yourself a favour and read it. Totally non-religious personal experience. A small book.
I also recommend "Zen Driving" by K.T.Berger, Ballantine publisher, ISBN 0-345-35350-1. Also a small book.
I personally see Zen as a way of:
1: Moving physically in the world in relation to every other moving/non-moving thing, whether in driving, walking, standing, fighting, resting or any other state;
2: Moving mentally in the world in relation to every other mentally active entity you react with;
3: Observing the physical relationships/interactions of all natural bodies (birds, planets, raindrops, volcanoes, opponents, etc.) with each other and you: the Self.
It's no surprise that to me that this concept became interwoven with the Martial Arts; it fits so perfectly and is SO relevant in the concepts of motion, power, grace, attitude and responsibility.
To me it's a view of Nature as only a human can view it.
NM
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Bill Glasheen
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Yes...Zen in the Martial Arts" by (I think) Joe Hyams
Zen in the Martial Arts
by Joe Hyams (Author)
- Bill
It's been a long time since I've read it. One of the things I love about the forums is it inspires me to train, read, and research.
The other thing about practicing meditation of most kinds is that the focus is on the breath, both to control mental state and to control the physical state. It's all fine and good to practice breathing while doing forms but it's difficult to develop a full understanding of the breath unless you sit still and focus on it on a regular basis. You can also learn to control your heart rate, which varies with the breath.
Kami
The other thing about practicing meditation of most kinds is that the focus is on the breath, both to control mental state and to control the physical state. It's all fine and good to practice breathing while doing forms but it's difficult to develop a full understanding of the breath unless you sit still and focus on it on a regular basis. You can also learn to control your heart rate, which varies with the breath.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
i have found the mind and body connection is important when making any kind of offensive movement. ususally one side of your brain is saying "ok attack now" the other side of yor brain is saying " but if you do you might get hit yourself on the way in.. DONT ..DONT!) so your body goes in for the attack but your mind is not really in cooperation. this is called dualism. your mind is having two thoughts at one time and your body won't know who to follow.
as far as books go,
it should be kept in ones mind that most books are really about the philosophy of Zen. the writing of Allen Watts is a good example. they are good books to read and think on. someone in the other Zen post used a good term "bubble gum for the mind" i really like that. but this bubble gum has been known since the 60's as Neo- Zen. lets not confuse the map for the terrain. Zen is in the DO'ing not the thinking. that is the purpose of Koans. they are worded just right to confuse the mind and stop it from thinking. only when one has a direct experience will you understand the koan.
(to think about how a tree grows does not help it grow one bit)
Hoshin
~~~~~
as far as books go,
it should be kept in ones mind that most books are really about the philosophy of Zen. the writing of Allen Watts is a good example. they are good books to read and think on. someone in the other Zen post used a good term "bubble gum for the mind" i really like that. but this bubble gum has been known since the 60's as Neo- Zen. lets not confuse the map for the terrain. Zen is in the DO'ing not the thinking. that is the purpose of Koans. they are worded just right to confuse the mind and stop it from thinking. only when one has a direct experience will you understand the koan.
(to think about how a tree grows does not help it grow one bit)
Hoshin
~~~~~
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HALFORD E. JONES
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Suzuki and Watts. I had forgotten to mention them.
Alan Watts had many positive as well as negative aspects about his writings not to say his practices but as a popularizer of these things, he did a lot to stimulate people.Suzuki was more of a scholar and not actually a 'religious' as I understand and so some of his writings are a bit dry for many. Still, one could do worse than read these but they are not the whole story and as someone in the other topic on this,part I, mentioned, there are Zen Sects: at least three fairly well-known now but no so earlier for most persons who equate Zen with Rinzai Sects.
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HALFORD E. JONES
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THE THREE WESTERN WAYS OF
are concentration, meditation and contemplation and each has, according to descriptions of those who have undertaken this systematic process,definite stages and phenomena,etc. that will be encountered as well as pitfalls, such as, "The Dark Night of the Soul" or "THE DWELLER ON THE THRESHOLD",etc. Whether done in the Buddhist, Hindu, Sufi,Christian,etc. religions or traditions, the results may or may not be the same but the parallels are interesting to those willing to examine them,though no one need embrace them. This is true also for martial arts with systems, styles and masters.You just have to be critical and exercise the true power of discrimination sometimes to see what is there.
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HALFORD E. JONES
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THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH!
I tried to answer this topic with a listing of books that I thought would help in this discussion last week but my computer locked up and I was unable to do so and other things going on with it also prevented me. I am using the public library's computer now but don't have the listings with me for this. So please be patient.
