Thigh Kicks

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:51 am

How much use do you make of thigh kicks? We use them as our main weapon in our system of shotokan, just wondering what you thought.

Walkman · Post by **Walkman** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:19 pm

If by "thigh kicks" you mean the target of the kick is the thigh.

I don't know about in other dojos, but Fuller sensei taught me very quickly to watch out for those after he continuosly nailed my rear leg with 'em.

Still hurts thinking about it.

BTW-I recently watched a K-1 tourney on ESPN. While the technique was shoddy for most of the combatants, that seemed to be their favorite technique. In the finals, the loser (6-11, 311 lbs) went down for a TKO because his lag had been whalloped so many times.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:23 pm

Karateka

Good to hear from you again.

Uechi is famous (infamous???

) for toe kicks (sokusen geri) to the thigh. {Statement removed} For self defense, it works especially well with a shoe on.

But again, you need to develop this weapon. Otherwise it's just a wet dream.

Walkman

I too recently saw a K-1 championship match (on ESPN this week) that ended because of thigh kicks. The match was a draw after 3 and was going to a 4th round but... the one competitor couldn't continue because he had a hematoma the size of a gratefruit growing on his thigh. It was blowing up right in front of the camera eye. Pretty nastly looking!

- Bill

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat May 01, 2004 4:31 am

delete

TG · Post by TG » Sat May 01, 2004 7:05 pm

"the loser (6-11, 311 lbs) went down for a TKO because his lag had been whalloped so many times."

How many "times" could you kick someone in the thigh in a fight? Sounds like a lot of them sre needed to have the effect.

TG

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat May 01, 2004 8:20 pm

A single kick no matter how good is unlikely to end a fight against a well conditioned opponent , It depends if your talking competition or self defence , the targets change as does the intent , self defence can be hammered at the joints more and used as good unbalancing tactics .

I do beleive youve got a point Bill in they would have more penetration I just dont beleive they`d make that much more difference when all the other points of kicking are taken into account .

I know you love your style . I`m enjoying it to .

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun May 02, 2004 7:39 pm

My sensei uses the toe kick with some effect, the danger in this waza is easy to see. Conditioning the toe. With so many other weapons that can be trained and used with great effect, folks just don't want to take the chance on becoming crippled up by conditioning the toe for toe kicks. A gedan mawashi has replaced the toe kick in modern karate and for good reason.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:05 pm

Stryke

First, we have Muay Thai people down here. I've had a go at it... They really don't do anything that a good Uechika is trained to do in that way. The kicks feel all the same to me (yes, they hurt...); it' just like the ashikitae we do in class. But when you bring the toes in...

You just have to face someone who can do this, Stryke. It's nasty. But as I said, one needs to do the conditioning first, and have a little bit of aptitude for it.

Second, I'm thinking self defense here. If I'm in a 3 round K-1 fight, I suppose I could afford to spend the nine minutes doing one kick after the next to the legs with the top of my feet. In fact that's what it took - the full nine minutes.

In a self defense situation, I'd a lot rather use the tip of my shoes, my shin bones, or my knees. I don't have time to wear my opponent down - particularly if it's a multiple opponent fight. And I don't expect that the average thug is going to have conditioned himself for leg kicks, or that I will be facing a pro boxer with his wraps on, or... or... (Pick your favorite impossible opponent). I'm going for the 80/20 rule.

But we all know there's a big difference between sport and self defense - even where full contact is concerned.

- Bill

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:20 pm

One of the top trainers at Quantico is a Muay Thai champ from his travels as a Marine in the Phillipines. I watched him spar a couple of weeks ago and he is incredibly quick and strikes with his shin. He claims to have knocked opponents out with a kick to the thigh (peronial nerve I believe).

A major, very tough fighter and my principal trainer at Quantico, was somewhat skeptical and took on the Muay Thai fighter. One shin to the thigh and the major was on the ground puking! Talk about a sympathetic response by the nervous system.

When offered the chance to experience a few minutes with that Marine I wisely demured to allow the younger guys the opportunity.

Rich

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:20 pm

Karateka

My sensei uses the toe kick with some effect, the danger in this waza is easy to see.

I'm not sure I understand. The only difference between a toe kick and any other kind of kick is the part of the foot you choose to strike with.

folks just don't want to take the chance on becoming crippled up by conditioning the toe for toe kicks.

I'm not sure I understand this one either. What are said people doing that is making them crippled?

This is not an Okinawan technique. You don't go smashing your toes up against things like makiwara. You don't train sokusens, or shokens for that matter, by smashing them on things. The point (sorry for the bad pun...) is to train toe strength, and not to condition the surface of the toe. There are ways...

BTW, you need to have some genetics here on your side. For instance, it doesn't hurt in taequondo to have a predisposition for flexibility. But I can tell you that in my years of training, I've found more women who could do this than men. It's the ballet training as children.

Not exactly a crippling sport. No X-league of ballet - yet.

A gedan mawashi has replaced the toe kick in modern karate and for good reason.

Once again, I think you are confused. You can do a toe kick with a gedan mawashi. It isn't the kick per se; it's the part of the foot you contact with.

When I have my hiking boots on, or my Rockports, and a gang of thugs is between me and a fast exit, I ain't kickin' with the tops of my feet. From a self defense standpoint, kicking with the toes (with shoes on) is a lot more practical than kicking with the tops of your feet. You use what you have in the situation. The shoe naturally tethers the toe, and can have an ugly striking surface. And after all, there are laws on the books against kicking people with "shod foot." Ever wonder why? These laws were put there before anyone ever put a gi on in this country.

This is why I believe the Chinese got it right. We don't face the BG's with bare feet and pajamas (or boxing wraps and gym shorts, or... or...).

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:34 pm

Rich

But we can't take ONE PERSON and generalize. This is obviously a talented fighter.

Try getting a little bit of toe from Takamiyagi or Yonamine some time...

Nevertheless, I like hitting with the shin bone too. That's one advantage of being born with boney legs...

And that's one reason why the rolling pin is a constant in my karate gym bag.

- Bill

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Sun May 02, 2004 11:32 pm

I was just making an observation. No comparisons to sokusens by Okinawans was intended.

Rich

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon May 03, 2004 12:07 am

You just have to face someone who can do this, Stryke. It's nasty. But as I said, one needs to do the conditioning first, and have a little bit of aptitude for it.

well I just flew half way around the world to do just that , Ive still got a large bruise on my chest from Rick demonstrating the shoken , and while very effective its just pain as you say . I dont disagree that it is an effective technique...

The best Muay Thai fighters in the world could and would cut us both down with there shin kicks , just as you say the best Uechi practitioners could .

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:31 pm

Mr. Glasheen, its not a matter of misunderstanding, I simply disagree.

With respect,

karateka
aka jason

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 06, 2004 2:19 am

BTW, I never realized you were "the" Jason. You changed your forum name, no?

- Bill