Tiger or Sheepdog

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:05 pm

Please read what Rick posted from Master Tomoyose.

"Tigers and Sheep"
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=12004

I love what Master Tomoyse said. And it also got me thinking about the cliche "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog". And Scott Sonnon's assertion that a true marital artist is neither a wolf or a sheep, but a sheepdog.

In my mind the main end goal of traditional martial arts isn't to create monster fighting machines in humanoid forms. The goal of the traditional martial arts is to take a human, with all its inherent foibles, insecurities, flaws, and strengths - and bring that human to a place where they understand and believe that they have a right to protect their own well being, the well being of those around them, and the well being of society as a whole. Inherent in this process will be the understanding that a times you must walk away, at times you must run for help, and at times you must fight for your life.

A close quarters combat fighting expert may not give a damn about the health of his community or his neighbor or himself. And he may be able to teach you how to become the ultimate killing machine. But at the end of the day - is the world a better place for your having walked in it? Are you a better person for having walked that path?

I respect a tradition that puts character before combat, when it is so difficult today to nourish good character.

Mark Weitz · Post by **Mark Weitz** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:47 pm

Great post Dana.

Much of my motivation to stay in the marital arts, particularly with the dojo I study at, is the character-building and spiritual aspects of the Way. I try to stay abreast of and incorporate to some extent the contributions being made by those who are primarily concerned with self-defence mindset but Karate is definitely so much more than that.

Thanks for reminding us of this as it's too easy to lose this message as our style, among others, is working to incorporate the current flavour and/or state-of-the art.

Mark

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:55 am

Hi Dana:

“I respect a tradition that puts character before combat, when it is so difficult today to nourish good character.”

While I do not disagree with your intent I disagree with the distinction.

Hmm that made a whole lot of sense.

I believe your comment is completely true when you compare a person who is just training people to bash other people’s brains in. So one who is training people to be better people is light years ahead of the other.

Where I disagree with the distinction is that on a true martial path character is taught through the teaching of combat.

When we teach a person to hit really hard we have armed them and let them loose on the world. To do so without transferring respect for other people as well is negligent.

I think this is why Tomoyse Sensei’s words spoke to me as well. We must train as tigers so that we have the control and caring not to hurt the sheep.

One way to put it perhaps not the best.

The “combat” person you speak of would go and work with “sheep” but he would hurt them. A true “tiger” would not.

The tiger is trained in combat in a manner that is also training in life.

“But at the end of the day - is the world a better place for your having walked in it? Are you a better person for having walked that path?”

Now that is the real question isn’t it? Well put.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:37 pm

Where I disagree with the distinction is that on a true martial path character is taught through the teaching of combat.

**happy grin of good discourse**

Did you read any of the article I posted in the other thread on "theatre of combat"? I think that the taoist and zen elements that participated in the propigation of martial arts also had an impact on the durability of the tradition of solo physical training and partner physical training.

How the teacher approaches the concept of combatives has alot to do with what students can get out of it.

I remember being at a seminar with David Elkins Senei...his introduction of a series of techniques went someting like this:

**Deep growling voice**
"Knee them in the groin, control the head with the neck and use pain compliance with the nerve behind the jaw to turn their body, then use can use the knee again in the back or take out their leg, if you keep ahold of the head you've got a great setup for a neck break."

**Gentle teaching voice**
"Now grab a new partner, someone you don't know, exchange energy with them, and see if you can find the flow of the exercise"

Combatives are combatives - they are techniques that hurt or injure them. But in the traditional martial arts we ask you to train them in partnership with people for mutual development.

As you later said - making tigers who can work with sheep. Are we not teaching charater when we use combatives to teach people that while they have the ability to hurt or maim others their skill is best practiced in partnership with someone else where no one is actually inured?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:41 pm

I've always liked the sheepdog analogy. I think it best applied to me.

In my life, I put up with a lot of $hit. Some of my friends tell me I put up with too much. But I just don't find the need to pop a jerk - literally or figuratively. I'd rather they fall on their own deeds.

"He" (my limbic system) comes out in two situations.

When I am attacked, something inside me comes forth. I can't explain it. Frankly I am afraid of it. Luck plays a role in my health today, but there is thankfully something else inside. I believe it is partly a genetic thing.

"He" especially comes forth when I witness someone else being victimized. On one occasion, I slammed someone in a public setting that grabbed my date in the rear. At the time I was a 145-pound runner on the cross country team, and the jerk was captain of the basketball team. What happened happened before I realized it happened. I can't explain it. It surprised everyone around - especially me.

I have felt "him" coming forth on other occasions where a date was fondled in a public setting. Because of this, I do not go to bars or public dance facilities. I hate that feeling that wells up so damn quickly, and I don't want to put myself or my friends in that situation.

It's a sheepdog thing. It's in my father too; he was head of a neighborhood watch for years. Maybe it's a kind of Irish cop syndrome, I don't know... There must be a reason why so many New England cops are Irish.

Training has put much of that fear I have of my behavior at rest. I am more aware. I know how not to "go there."

We each have our own unique perspectives, reasons for training, and ways it affects us.

- Bill

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:20 am

Hi Dana:

I haven’t actually followed the other thread I will have to drop by.

“Are we not teaching charater when we use combatives to teach people that while they have the ability to hurt or maim others their skill is best practiced in partnership with someone else where no one is actually inured?”

True Tigers training are not out to hurt one another. Hard training comes with bumps, bruises and the like but the difference is the lack of malice and ego. True injuries are accidents and should be few and far between.

Constant total compliant training is not a martial way and (just my opinion here) is misleading.

I remember James Thompson at a seminar talking about his first Aikido class. He was to reach and grab or some such thing. The responding partner was to perform a well know technique. Thompson Sensei reaches and got a hold of him while the poor fellow seemed to be trying something but in vain. Thompson Sensei asked him what he was doing. “I’m blending our energies,” He said. Thompson Sensei replied: “Well, I’m not.”

You see I don’t have a problem with either approach you quoted. My brother David is one of the kindest and best of men. I know you were not saying differently but …. He can make it all work because he is a Tiger. He can also exchange energies if he chooses to.

By not knowing the martial purpose or the principles upon which they actually are based I would question the proper exchange of the energy from the training.

So for me I would be looking at the principles that make the series work, the possible martial results (read as damage to the other party) and that exchange of energies. All of these create proper martial training.

I think it was David Lowry who said that to focus on just one side is to be imbalanced. So we need the exchange of energies but we also need the neck breaking. Without that balance we cannot have the whole.

Now you cannot train super hard everyday I do not believe that is a healthy practice for your body to endure but my personal take is you have to go there.

“Combatives are combatives - they are techniques that hurt or injure them. But in the traditional martial arts we ask you to train them in partnership with people for mutual development.”

Here perhaps we disagree on terms because I do not believe you can have a traditional martial art without the combatives.

Again this must be presented and balanced or you are just participating in the training of thugs.

Very good topic for exploration.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:47 am

Sheepdog or the Hulk ?

we all have to realise that switch , this is confronting ourselves , this can bring about character growth , martial reality ...

I agree with Rick . Growth through confronting real violence , reality

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:48 pm

When I say "partnership" I don't mean wet noodle compliance.

Women are the first group done an incredible disserivce by compliant male partners in the training hall. Not so say that men aren't also not served by this practice, but for women, the stark reality of the difference in power and strength between the genders is a cold hard fact. (Of course there are a few women stronger than many men, but very, very few)

I don't think "real violence" belongs in the training hall either. Real violence is disgusting, painful, emotionally damanging, and has long term pychological effects on those present.

I would never do bulletman training, SPEAR scenariors, or other high-stress training on a daily basis - I'd end up some sort of freak that expects every person passing me by to verbally assault me and I'd never be able to sleep at night as I waited to be attacked when I lay down. That kind of training has its place, but it is not a healthy way to train on a day to day basis. You wouldn't end up with tigers, you'd end up with crazed monkeys ready to attack anything that provoked them the slightest.

It is not an easy thing to train at the edge of everyone's comfort zone on a regular basis. Mistakes are made in both directions - sometimes the training is too easy, sometimes too violent.

What I was hoping to emphasize was the idea that if we focus too discreetly on the physcial aspects of training - we may lose two thirds of the possible benefits of traditional training.

On my trip to Okinawa there was a woman who at 62 had started training in Uechi-ryu. At 63, she is a green belt. I would hope that there is a place for her in every Uechi dojo. And that every Uechi dojo would help her become a better fighter, better at being in partnership, and a better person.

Dana

Post by **gmattson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:53 pm

My attempts at saying this falls short of the mark. Your's hit "center mass".

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:40 pm

I would never do bulletman training, SPEAR scenarios, or other high-stress training on a daily basis - I'd end up some sort of freak…

Great post Dana. And I agree. I don’t know of any bonafide sensei that pushes “freakish training” to that extent that you point out.

All good teachers know that traditional routines only need be punctuated by the above reality scenarios on occasional basis to hard wire the programming and adrenal response action.

In fact, Peyton Quinn covers this well in his book and Tony Blauer presents his varied material in much the same manner.

Gary Khoury is certified in the Blauer method, and he could be more explicit about these concerns, and why the method is so efficient when coupled with our traditional karate, thus the reason why his students are the best all around Uechi-ka from what I observe.

I have attended seminars by Mr. Blauer, and his teachings are very refined and fit well with traditional training.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:50 pm

Lots of good ideas here.

I think it's possible to create "cooperative uncooperation." The idea is that we remain competitive with each other up to the point that we know we are challenged, and not beyond. There's no point in humiliating or injuring someone in the dojo. But totally cooperative training misses the mark as well.

The scernario you describe Dana with the chronologically challenged student is possible in a good dojo. The idea is for individuals to seek out those who will find the flaws and exploit them just enough to get the point across and define the boundaries of one's abilities. The better the training partner, the better that person can find just the right dose. I like to use the hot sauce analogy for many such things. For the sauce lover, you want enough hot sauce to make you sweat and burn, but not so much that you lose your interest in eating. Operating in that narrow zone on a daily basis will shift one's capsaicin tolerance over time in a way that makes one constantly crave more. Same is true for shifting the boundaries of one's abilities, whether they be physical, mental, or psychological.

Hadn't thought of "The Hulk" analogy, Stryke. Humor aside (nice pic, BTW), it does fit to some extent. However it's when the beast comes out that fascinates me. Everyone has their buttons. Ideally they're only triggered at the right time - no sooner and no later. I definitely believe we each have our unique "martial personality." I sometimes wonder how much we can change that for the better (beyond basic operant conditioning). Some in the emotional intelligence field believe you can. Is that part of the role of a traditional dojo? Food for thought.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:57 pm

Dana,

Here are some thoughts by Scott Sonnon, as published in a Black Belt magazine’ article.

Symmetrical training cannot be relied upon. Too many martial arts instructors teach you how to use your skills only against practitioners of the same style.

You must be prepared, both psychologically and physiologically, for the attack. Your awareness must be such that you have the ability to function under the intense strain of personal combat even though it will enable you to defuse or avoid 90 percent of all volatile situations.

Don’t spend all your training time in the dojo. Miyamoto Musashi, one of humanity’s greatest warrior-philosophers, stated in his Book of Five Rings: ... If you learn indoor techniques, you will think narrowly and forget the true way. Thus you will have difficulty in actual encounters.

Martial sports are about technical skill, steadfastness, endurance, doggedness, durability, and resilience. They have nothing to do with personal combat because they do not take place outdoors, in the dirt, in the rain, in the snow, on the concrete or in ambush simulations__ what Tony Blauer refers to as ballistic micro-fights.

To prepare for an event, you must simulate it as closely as possible. Performance is in direct proportion to preparation. Moreover, the worst performance you have in training is the best you can hope for in combat.

To increase your chance of survival, you must engage in overload practice. Your training simulations must be more difficult than the potential assault.

~~

And All in moderation.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:37 pm

By not knowing the martial purpose or the principles upon which they actually are based I would question the proper exchange of the energy from the training.

Some of the training I engage in may not look like fighting principles. Many of the drills have to do with building personal body awareness. Then we do other drills to build your awareness of working with/against an opponent.

Overwhelming force requires an overwhelming response. But as the Marines found out - if you only teach soliders how to shoot a gun, stab them with a bayonette, or hit people with the end of their gun - that's all they're going to do.

So there are times when students should be overwhelming by the force and power of an incoming attack (as long as that is done as safely as possible), and there are times when students need to focus on having more options than pounding away until the opponent is a little pile of yuck.

You see to me, traditional martial artists should also be exposed to benevolence and not just violence. Not so much benevolence that they become incapable of defending their well being or those around them. But enough so that they do not become conceited by their own abilities and strut around the world waiting for some idiot to take a swipe at them so they can "make an example" of the poor slob. Then, instead of a better person, you've ended up with a bully.

It's been said a few times on these forums that folks who are already bullies don't often stay in traditional training halls because their need to bully isn't fed. However - I think there is reason to stay carefully aware that we do not enable a culture of bullying to develop by building only the yang and none of the yin.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:02 pm

Dana

You see to me, traditional martial artists should also be exposed to benevolence and not just violence. Not so much benevolence that they become incapable of defending their well being or those around them. But enough so that they do not become conceited by their own abilities and strut around the world waiting for some idiot to take a swipe at them so they can "make an example" of the poor slob. Then, instead of a better person, you've ended up with a bully.

Agree 100%_

Also, that they do not become conceited by their own abilities and strut around/stick around and engage against something they did not bargain for.

This becomes a big problem when a teacher pounds into the student's head that because of his traditional kata, kumite, bunkai, conditioning and the unity of mind , body, spirit, the student is ready to take on any challenge thrown his way.

In modern day and age, more so than in the past, the typical attack will come from someone with physical, numerical and or weapon advantage.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:18 pm

What Dana speaks of goes very deep. I'll encourage Rich to drop by so he can articulate exactly how explicit this multidimensional training is in the MCMAP. For every physical technique taught, there is a clear and specific program designed to teach some aspect of character development. I was impressed by the depth and breadth of what I saw.

- Bill

Tiger or Sheepdog

Tiger or Sheepdog

Well said Dana...