i would like to ask a question ,mostly to find out what the common response is by women. i understand a trained female might respond to this question differently then someone who is untrained. please share what you think an untrained female would do as well as your reponse. i have heard all sides and all the pro's and con's to this but it is still highly debated. i will ad more info as we go.
here goes;
as a woman ,if you find yourself in a situation that you are being attacked by a male with rape as a motive do you??
1: fight back with everything you got from the outset
2: try to talk you way out
3: do something else(your choice) other then responding with force
Hoshin
~~~~~
whats your response on rape defense?
Moderator: Available
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
hoshin - what you're asking is impossible to answer. There is no cookie cutter solution for self defense. Probably 95% of the time I'd tell women that their best option is to resist from the get-go. 4% of the time they might make a judgment call to temporarily comply because they think they'll end up in a better position to resist. And 1% of the time - you may choose to comply. (If there is more than one thug and thug #2 is holding a knife against your daughter's throat while thug #1 rapes you - or other unusual circumstances.) There should also be consideration for women with disabilities - who may not be able to physically resist.
There are urban legends of women telling men that they were pregnant and having them back off and other things like telling women to urinate on themselves - but there is simply no perfect decision making flow-chart for trained or untrained women.
What are you getting at?
There are urban legends of women telling men that they were pregnant and having them back off and other things like telling women to urinate on themselves - but there is simply no perfect decision making flow-chart for trained or untrained women.
What are you getting at?
Did you show compassion today?
hi Dana;
you are absolutly correct. i am not looking for THE correct response but for the publics assumed correct response. there are many "experts" out there spouting concepts that will not work or even get you killed.
let me narrow the field of the question a bit.
1 you are alone. you dont have to worry about someone else's safety.
2 this is not a date rape situation where you know the person. he is a preditor and have been targeted for some unknown reason.
3 you are an average woman with no disabillities.
you ask what am i getting at....
i belive 90% percent of the information out there is bogus. however given with good intentions. i also belive that the process that women are taught on how to make this (fight /comply) decision if flawed. i feel it is flawed because not all the facts and variables are common knowlege.
hoshin
~~~~~
you are absolutly correct. i am not looking for THE correct response but for the publics assumed correct response. there are many "experts" out there spouting concepts that will not work or even get you killed.
let me narrow the field of the question a bit.
1 you are alone. you dont have to worry about someone else's safety.
2 this is not a date rape situation where you know the person. he is a preditor and have been targeted for some unknown reason.
3 you are an average woman with no disabillities.
you ask what am i getting at....
i belive 90% percent of the information out there is bogus. however given with good intentions. i also belive that the process that women are taught on how to make this (fight /comply) decision if flawed. i feel it is flawed because not all the facts and variables are common knowlege.
hoshin
~~~~~
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Then my answer is this - if he's already attacked me the time for talking is past. No matter is there is one, or two, or five attackers I will fight like hell.
I'm not sure how many women will be willing to answer in open forum. And - for women and men who are survivors of rape or attempted rape - it's important to know that whatever you did to come out of that situation alive was the right thing to do. And nobody on this earth can tell you that you should have done anything differently.
That being said - hoshin I'll be very interested in what you present as useful as well as false information.
Dana
I'm not sure how many women will be willing to answer in open forum. And - for women and men who are survivors of rape or attempted rape - it's important to know that whatever you did to come out of that situation alive was the right thing to do. And nobody on this earth can tell you that you should have done anything differently.
That being said - hoshin I'll be very interested in what you present as useful as well as false information.
Dana
Did you show compassion today?
Hi , Hope you don't mind me commenting on this.
Firstly I don't think there is any right way to advise women how to react.
Every scenario is different , every attack and outcome can be different.
I don't believe trained or untrained that you can hand on heart say how
you would react until you are in that situation.
I've trained in MA for 5 years and I hope that if the situation ever arose then I'd fight like hell using what I've learned to my advantage but I don't in truth know that I would.
There are ways that you can appear less vunerable so that any man looking for an easy target might think twice about approaching you but it's no guarantee.
Forgive me but I'm always cynical of a man's reasons for asking these types of questions , what do you hope to gain from our feedback.
Are you an instructor looking to improve the defence scenario's you teach to female students.
B
Firstly I don't think there is any right way to advise women how to react.
Every scenario is different , every attack and outcome can be different.
I don't believe trained or untrained that you can hand on heart say how
you would react until you are in that situation.
I've trained in MA for 5 years and I hope that if the situation ever arose then I'd fight like hell using what I've learned to my advantage but I don't in truth know that I would.
There are ways that you can appear less vunerable so that any man looking for an easy target might think twice about approaching you but it's no guarantee.
Forgive me but I'm always cynical of a man's reasons for asking these types of questions , what do you hope to gain from our feedback.
Are you an instructor looking to improve the defence scenario's you teach to female students.
B
hi Bevwy;
__________________________________________________________________
"Forgive me but I'm always cynical of a man's reasons for asking these types of questions , what do you hope to gain from our feedback."
___________________________________________________________________
please.. no need to apologize. i am very glad that you did post and actually vocalized what you were thinking. by looking at the number of people who viewed this post but did not respond, i would guess most were even more cynical than yourself. thats ok.
_______________________________________________________________________
Are you an instructor looking to improve the defence scenario's you teach to female students.
______________________________________________________________________
yes Bevwy. i have been teaching since about 1986.
an sometimes i get so frustrated by what i see around me being taught that i want to pull my hair out (and sometimes someone else's lol)
i am sure a lot of you received the e-mail telling women not to wear a pony tail, wear overalls,ect .. because a rapist will pick you as an easy target. there is so much incorrect information. knowledge is power! we need to make sure it is correct.
i hope that helps a bit to answer your questions. i am going to post my thoughts and ideas but i hate long rambling posts that i know people dont read all of anyways ,so i try to keep them short.
Hoshin
~~~~~
__________________________________________________________________
"Forgive me but I'm always cynical of a man's reasons for asking these types of questions , what do you hope to gain from our feedback."
___________________________________________________________________
please.. no need to apologize. i am very glad that you did post and actually vocalized what you were thinking. by looking at the number of people who viewed this post but did not respond, i would guess most were even more cynical than yourself. thats ok.
_______________________________________________________________________
Are you an instructor looking to improve the defence scenario's you teach to female students.
______________________________________________________________________
yes Bevwy. i have been teaching since about 1986.
an sometimes i get so frustrated by what i see around me being taught that i want to pull my hair out (and sometimes someone else's lol)
i am sure a lot of you received the e-mail telling women not to wear a pony tail, wear overalls,ect .. because a rapist will pick you as an easy target. there is so much incorrect information. knowledge is power! we need to make sure it is correct.
i hope that helps a bit to answer your questions. i am going to post my thoughts and ideas but i hate long rambling posts that i know people dont read all of anyways ,so i try to keep them short.
Hoshin
~~~~~
i am going to put down some concepts here and on following posts. looking at one idea at a time. please be patient and please keep an open mind. i know it is hard to sometimes digest information, especialy when it contradicts something you have already learnt. also not every thing applies to every situation and i am not saying "i know best" i am only proposing information that made the most sense to me.
( also remember for the most part i am not talking about a date rape situation where you know the attacker)
first and foremost just because you took M.A. classes or a defense class that does not mean you will have presense of mind to be able to respond with force. even if the opportunity presents itself.
Van's forum has a ways of hitting that concept home again and again.
if you found yourself in that situation where you should have done something but didn't, it is normal and your in the majority( male and female.)
this is the first problem in self-defense. any program worth its wieght in salt should address this problem.
women who did succesfully fend off an attacker all had one common characteristic, they made a positive mental decision to respond with force and not let this happen to them. they were very determined to fight.
just going to classes will not insure this determined attitude.
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO YOURSELF TO LEARN THIS DETERMINATION!
others can help but in the end it is your responsibility to be able to look deep inside and find it, pull it out and use it.
in my classes i try to get women to express anger , aggression, rage if need be, but to not be afraid to express it. to often they are told "it's not lady like "and all that bull. i have found alot of women have never allowed themselves that freedom and if it were needed in their defense they would not know where to find it.
thoughts ,,ideas,, i am looking to learn and share. that is what these pages are for and they are dead without you!!! please dont feel like what you have to say is not important!
Hoshin
~~~~~
(next ....now that you have found it ,,should you use it?)
( also remember for the most part i am not talking about a date rape situation where you know the attacker)
first and foremost just because you took M.A. classes or a defense class that does not mean you will have presense of mind to be able to respond with force. even if the opportunity presents itself.
Van's forum has a ways of hitting that concept home again and again.
if you found yourself in that situation where you should have done something but didn't, it is normal and your in the majority( male and female.)
this is the first problem in self-defense. any program worth its wieght in salt should address this problem.
women who did succesfully fend off an attacker all had one common characteristic, they made a positive mental decision to respond with force and not let this happen to them. they were very determined to fight.
just going to classes will not insure this determined attitude.
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO YOURSELF TO LEARN THIS DETERMINATION!
others can help but in the end it is your responsibility to be able to look deep inside and find it, pull it out and use it.
in my classes i try to get women to express anger , aggression, rage if need be, but to not be afraid to express it. to often they are told "it's not lady like "and all that bull. i have found alot of women have never allowed themselves that freedom and if it were needed in their defense they would not know where to find it.
thoughts ,,ideas,, i am looking to learn and share. that is what these pages are for and they are dead without you!!! please dont feel like what you have to say is not important!
Hoshin
~~~~~
(next ....now that you have found it ,,should you use it?)
Hi Hoshin
[in my classes i try to get women to express anger , aggression, rage if
need be, but to not be afraid to express it. to often they are told "it's not
lady like "and all that bull. i have found alot of women have never allowed
themselves that freedom and if it were needed in their defense they would
not know where to find it. ]
I find in my training that I'm always wary of hurting my partner , I hold
back not because it's not lady like but because genuinely I don't want to
hurt anyone.
But I do wonder sometimes , would this transfer in the street if I was
attacked , is my approach to training wrong because I lack enough
aggression.
I think women don't want to recognise aggression within themselves ,
aggression is a scary thing , most women want to feel empowered but
aggression can be view as a loss of control which in turn makes women feel
less empowered.
As a male instructor I'd be interested in hearing if you've noticed this
reluctance with your female students and how you combat it in class?
B
[in my classes i try to get women to express anger , aggression, rage if
need be, but to not be afraid to express it. to often they are told "it's not
lady like "and all that bull. i have found alot of women have never allowed
themselves that freedom and if it were needed in their defense they would
not know where to find it. ]
I find in my training that I'm always wary of hurting my partner , I hold
back not because it's not lady like but because genuinely I don't want to
hurt anyone.
But I do wonder sometimes , would this transfer in the street if I was
attacked , is my approach to training wrong because I lack enough
aggression.
I think women don't want to recognise aggression within themselves ,
aggression is a scary thing , most women want to feel empowered but
aggression can be view as a loss of control which in turn makes women feel
less empowered.
As a male instructor I'd be interested in hearing if you've noticed this
reluctance with your female students and how you combat it in class?
B
Bevwy;
____________________________________________________________________
I find in my training that I'm always wary of hurting my partner , I hold
back not because it's not lady like but because genuinely I don't want to
hurt anyone.
_____________________________________________________________________
this is so common that it is the norm not the exception. and not only found in women ,men also find this to be a concern.
you asked if your approach is wrong. that is a question only you can answer based on your own goals and attitude toward your training.
i can say that the biggest and most critical factor in rape defense is the ability to turn on that aggression when needed. often it is found that women were unable to "turn it on".
_______________________________________________________________________
As a male instructor I'd be interested in hearing if you've noticed this
reluctance with your female students and how you combat it in class?
______________________________________________________________________
have i noticed it? all the time. like i said it is common.
how i combat it in class is complex but i will try to give some ideas. first off these are "women only" classes.
bag work... lots of bag work.
keep in mind you shouldnt hit full force untill the wrists are capable of handling the stress. ( i use wraps to help prevent injury)
one sided sparring..
.i spar with the student but only the student is offensive. i only fend off the attack. using boxing gear i want the student to hit full force. in the begining they do not allow themselves to hit hard. but after testing the waters, they get into it and really enjoy beating the tar out of me
it is important that the female student spar with a male partner to help overcome certain fears and learn impowerment.
vocal reinforcement....
i always try to vocally encourage students but just as important if not more is the vocal reinforcement of her peers/ the other students. vocal encouragement before ,during and after a senario training is critical. sometime the roar of the crowd sounds like i am about to be lynched!!
the overall key is to allow the student to learn this new emotion and have the confidence to controll,and use it. a safe and positive environment is a must have.
i must add a word of caution. as a women learns this new behavior. their spouse /significant other will sometimes feel threatened. this can show up in a variety of ways. as most of you reading this are martial artists you have probably come across this already. a lot of men dont like the fact that their girl can kick their ass. it threatens their sense of manliness.
Hoshin
~~~~~
____________________________________________________________________
I find in my training that I'm always wary of hurting my partner , I hold
back not because it's not lady like but because genuinely I don't want to
hurt anyone.
_____________________________________________________________________
this is so common that it is the norm not the exception. and not only found in women ,men also find this to be a concern.
you asked if your approach is wrong. that is a question only you can answer based on your own goals and attitude toward your training.
i can say that the biggest and most critical factor in rape defense is the ability to turn on that aggression when needed. often it is found that women were unable to "turn it on".
_______________________________________________________________________
As a male instructor I'd be interested in hearing if you've noticed this
reluctance with your female students and how you combat it in class?
______________________________________________________________________
have i noticed it? all the time. like i said it is common.
how i combat it in class is complex but i will try to give some ideas. first off these are "women only" classes.
bag work... lots of bag work.
keep in mind you shouldnt hit full force untill the wrists are capable of handling the stress. ( i use wraps to help prevent injury)
one sided sparring..
.i spar with the student but only the student is offensive. i only fend off the attack. using boxing gear i want the student to hit full force. in the begining they do not allow themselves to hit hard. but after testing the waters, they get into it and really enjoy beating the tar out of me
it is important that the female student spar with a male partner to help overcome certain fears and learn impowerment.vocal reinforcement....
i always try to vocally encourage students but just as important if not more is the vocal reinforcement of her peers/ the other students. vocal encouragement before ,during and after a senario training is critical. sometime the roar of the crowd sounds like i am about to be lynched!!
the overall key is to allow the student to learn this new emotion and have the confidence to controll,and use it. a safe and positive environment is a must have.
i must add a word of caution. as a women learns this new behavior. their spouse /significant other will sometimes feel threatened. this can show up in a variety of ways. as most of you reading this are martial artists you have probably come across this already. a lot of men dont like the fact that their girl can kick their ass. it threatens their sense of manliness.
Hoshin
~~~~~
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Hoshin,
There is a difference between aggression and self-protection. There are many aggressive women who are in abusive relationships, there are many aggressive women who won't fight back.
I agree that it takes aggression to defend yourself, but having aggression doesn't automatically mean you will defend yourself.
How do you foster the self-defense mindset after you've tapped into their aggression?
There is a difference between aggression and self-protection. There are many aggressive women who are in abusive relationships, there are many aggressive women who won't fight back.
I agree that it takes aggression to defend yourself, but having aggression doesn't automatically mean you will defend yourself.
How do you foster the self-defense mindset after you've tapped into their aggression?
Did you show compassion today?
hi Dana;
could you define self-protection for me. we could be talking about the same thing or something different. for me in this instance the term aggressive is ment as that emotion but also as determination.
_____________________________________________________________________
women who did succesfully fend off an attacker all had one common characteristic, they made a positive mental decision to respond with force and not let this happen to them. they were very determined to fight.
_____________________________________________________________________
maybe i also need to mention that there is a big difference between beating someone up and doing what you have to do untill you can escape the situation. men tend to have the "seek ,find and conquor" attitude. when something goes bump in the house the first thing the man does is to go find out what it is. if he finds an offender is response is to attack. this is not always the best idea. on the other side is to fend off an attack untill you can get out of that situation. the goal is so that at the end of the day you are both physically and emtionally safe and sound.
Hoshin
~~~~~
could you define self-protection for me. we could be talking about the same thing or something different. for me in this instance the term aggressive is ment as that emotion but also as determination.
_____________________________________________________________________
women who did succesfully fend off an attacker all had one common characteristic, they made a positive mental decision to respond with force and not let this happen to them. they were very determined to fight.
_____________________________________________________________________
maybe i also need to mention that there is a big difference between beating someone up and doing what you have to do untill you can escape the situation. men tend to have the "seek ,find and conquor" attitude. when something goes bump in the house the first thing the man does is to go find out what it is. if he finds an offender is response is to attack. this is not always the best idea. on the other side is to fend off an attack untill you can get out of that situation. the goal is so that at the end of the day you are both physically and emtionally safe and sound.
Hoshin
~~~~~
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
You pretty much answered what I would have written for self-protection.
Self-protection isn't being a bully and isn't being randomly violent. It's know how to and being willing to do what you have to do to be safe.
So - how do you foster this mindset once you've helped women take a look at their inner beast?
Self-protection isn't being a bully and isn't being randomly violent. It's know how to and being willing to do what you have to do to be safe.
So - how do you foster this mindset once you've helped women take a look at their inner beast?
Did you show compassion today?
wow to answer that is kind of like asking "tell me everything you know"
but let me throw out some concepts real quick that we can go over. i belive your knowledge helps you make informed desicions.
three critical variables in self-defense
1. you
2. the offender
3 . location ( including time of day)
five psyco/physical ,responses in yourself
1. aggressive/anger attack mode
2. fear /flight
3. confidence (nothing to fear, your in controll)
4. nervouse (unsure of situation, caution)
5. open.. (no mind, mushin)
three types of offender tactics for first contact
1.the con
2. the blitz
3.the surprise
five classifications of sexual preditors
1. power reassurance
2. power assertive
3. anger/retalitory
4. opportunist
5. sadist
location has many variables that will come into the desicion making process.
Hoshin
~~~~~~
but let me throw out some concepts real quick that we can go over. i belive your knowledge helps you make informed desicions.
three critical variables in self-defense
1. you
2. the offender
3 . location ( including time of day)
five psyco/physical ,responses in yourself
1. aggressive/anger attack mode
2. fear /flight
3. confidence (nothing to fear, your in controll)
4. nervouse (unsure of situation, caution)
5. open.. (no mind, mushin)
three types of offender tactics for first contact
1.the con
2. the blitz
3.the surprise
five classifications of sexual preditors
1. power reassurance
2. power assertive
3. anger/retalitory
4. opportunist
5. sadist
location has many variables that will come into the desicion making process.
Hoshin
~~~~~~
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
hmmmmm
That's a pretty big decision tree. I could see it being difficult to judge properly if you've had a couple of drinks or dealing with complete strangers.
I'd think that rehearsal would be very important in building automaticity for the decision making process required to determine the type of format and connect that to the environment in order to come to a conclusion on the type of guy trying to take advantage of you.
I'm not saying it's impossible - I just think it would require some thoughtful practice.
I'd think that rehearsal would be very important in building automaticity for the decision making process required to determine the type of format and connect that to the environment in order to come to a conclusion on the type of guy trying to take advantage of you.
I'm not saying it's impossible - I just think it would require some thoughtful practice.
Did you show compassion today?
i only put those concepts down for discusion. i do not mean to imply that you have to think about all that stuff before deciding what you should do. we all know that would be an imposibilty.
but they can guide your training.
hoshin
~~~~~~
but they can guide your training.
hoshin
~~~~~~
Last edited by hoshin on Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
