I'd like to start a conversation to reverse engineer the Uechi kata Seisan - to come up with a series of principles represented by the techniques in the pattern of the kata that when executed leave the opponent incapacitated.
I'm starting from the idea that at the end of a certain collection of techniques the opponent is toast.
This is one approach to break apart the kata. (For the sake of easy reading I've left off all the wa-uke and I've also started the kata without the traditional 3 sanchin strikes added by Kanei Uechi)
Series 1 = hasami strike & bushiken strikes
Series 2 = throat strike & knee strike
Series 3 = 4 furi nukite
Series 4 = slide forward hit with double bushikens, grab with double shokens & turn
Series 5 = forward elbow
Series 6 = bushiken & nukite
Series 7 = tetsui & bushiken
Series 8 = nukite
Series 9 = shomen geri & knee strike & 3 shokens
Series 10 = 3 Sanchin strikes
Series 11 = 3 nukites
Series 12 = Seisan jump back & forward
Series 13 = elbow, shoken, backfist
If the chinese equivalent of Seisan was truly the name of this form, then the kata should be a series of 13 little moments (models) strung together. Each model addressed a certain fighting situation and gave you a way to get out of it.
If the folklore of how Kanbun taught is accurate, then you learned one model at a time. You didn’t learn “the kata Seisan” as one big piece. You were shown a context, shown how to apply principles to escape the context, and then shown how to reinforce that knowledge through the solo rehearsal of the model.
And if you talk with the folks from Patrick McCarthy’s group then the different little models in the kata address some of the habitual acts of physical violence from the 19th century & earlier.
With that introduction - let's start with Series 1.
Reverse Engineering Seisan
Moderator: Available
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Reverse Engineering Seisan
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Did you show compassion today?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dana
You made a big assumption when you stated the following.
The alternate hypothesis - and I've found supporters on the internet in the past - is that the numbers have nothing to do with the series of attacks that you face. Instead, the alternate hypothesis states that you have a form in need of a name, and the name is chosen based upon Buddhist concepts.
Certain numbers are "significant" in the Buddhist religion. The most important is 108, and there are 108 steps to enlightenment. As the saying goes, there literally are 108 steps up to a Buddhist shrine in honor of that concept. Numbers like 13 and 36 are multiples of 108. Three (or a trinity concept) is also important.
As Simon Lailey once put it, it's fashionable to name forms certain ways in certain parts of China, and the names have little to do with the content. It would be tantamount to calling that fancy movement in seichin kata "hawk chases sparrow."
What does "Kanshiwa" mean? It's an amalgm of Kanbun and Shushiwa. Same with Kanshu. That says little about the content of the form.
- Bill
You made a big assumption when you stated the following.
While I have heard some support this premise, I have also heard an alternate hypothesis.If the chinese equivalent of Seisan was truly the name of this form, then the kata should be a series of 13 little moments (models) strung together. Each model addressed a certain fighting situation and gave you a way to get out of it.
The alternate hypothesis - and I've found supporters on the internet in the past - is that the numbers have nothing to do with the series of attacks that you face. Instead, the alternate hypothesis states that you have a form in need of a name, and the name is chosen based upon Buddhist concepts.
Certain numbers are "significant" in the Buddhist religion. The most important is 108, and there are 108 steps to enlightenment. As the saying goes, there literally are 108 steps up to a Buddhist shrine in honor of that concept. Numbers like 13 and 36 are multiples of 108. Three (or a trinity concept) is also important.
As Simon Lailey once put it, it's fashionable to name forms certain ways in certain parts of China, and the names have little to do with the content. It would be tantamount to calling that fancy movement in seichin kata "hawk chases sparrow."
What does "Kanshiwa" mean? It's an amalgm of Kanbun and Shushiwa. Same with Kanshu. That says little about the content of the form.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
"Traditional Karatedo - Okinawa Goju Ryu, Volume 2" by Morio Higaonna (1986, Minato Research / Japan Publications)Many of the kata names are Chinese numbers symbolizing certain Buddhist concepts. For example, Suparinpei (the number 108 in Chinese) has a special significance in Buddhism. lt is believed that man has 108 evil passions, and so in Buddhist temples on December 31 st, at the stroke of midnight, a bell is rung 108 times to drive away those spirits. The number 108 in Suparinpei is calculated from 36 x 3. The symbolism of the number 36 is given in the explanation of Sanseru which follows. The number 3 symbolizes past, present, and future. Sanseru. written in Chinese characters, is the number 36. Symbolically it is calculated from the formula 6 x 6. The first six represents eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and spirit. The second six symbolizes color, voice, taste, smell, touch, and justice. Sepai, similarly, is the number 18. It is calculated from 6 x 3. The six here is the same as the second six of Sanseru. The three represents good, bad, and peace.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
That being said, Dana, I think it's still fine to proceed. But put in a few caveats.
Kata are funny things. Sometimes kata are very much like music. For example in a piece of music, you may have two choral groups responding to each other. Take Queen's night of the opera. One group of singers says
"Let him go"
and the other says.
"We will not let him go."
Well a kata can have the weapon and the antidote to the weapon put one right after the other, so you are playing both sides of the fight. In bo form Shuji no kun, you have two lateral strikes. Then you have a lateral block. Why? You learn yang and then yin, one right after the other.
Sometimes kata will also do funny things like point on your own body where a technique is to be delivered.
And sometimes I believe choreographers just want to make your body go through lines of motion so that they assimilate technique (vocabulary) and sequence (grammar). The goal is not to make you follow that sequence exactly as done. Rather the goal is to teach you both vocabulary and grammar so that later on you put your own sentences together. Consequently application can be very different (timing and sequence wise) than kata.
In the past few weeks, I have been choreographing bo drills for my students. I'm just creating ditties to help them learn how to do techniques and sequences. I certainly hope nobody will take these things 100 years now and propose the fighting situations I was trying to shadow box.
Still... I think you parsed some of these techniques in seisan quite nicely. This very much is worth the exercise.
- Bill
Kata are funny things. Sometimes kata are very much like music. For example in a piece of music, you may have two choral groups responding to each other. Take Queen's night of the opera. One group of singers says
"Let him go"
and the other says.
"We will not let him go."
Well a kata can have the weapon and the antidote to the weapon put one right after the other, so you are playing both sides of the fight. In bo form Shuji no kun, you have two lateral strikes. Then you have a lateral block. Why? You learn yang and then yin, one right after the other.
Sometimes kata will also do funny things like point on your own body where a technique is to be delivered.
And sometimes I believe choreographers just want to make your body go through lines of motion so that they assimilate technique (vocabulary) and sequence (grammar). The goal is not to make you follow that sequence exactly as done. Rather the goal is to teach you both vocabulary and grammar so that later on you put your own sentences together. Consequently application can be very different (timing and sequence wise) than kata.
In the past few weeks, I have been choreographing bo drills for my students. I'm just creating ditties to help them learn how to do techniques and sequences. I certainly hope nobody will take these things 100 years now and propose the fighting situations I was trying to shadow box.
Still... I think you parsed some of these techniques in seisan quite nicely. This very much is worth the exercise.
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
You'll notice that I said "if Seisan is the Chinese equivalent of 13".
I understand what you're saying Bill. But after attending Patrck McCarthy's seminar I'm doing this exercise to see if I can apply some of his theories.
He specializes in the traditions that informed the Okinawan traditions. Many of those came from southern China. His understanding is that a vast majority of people developing forms in Southern China in the 19th and 18th centuries were working off the idea of creating a "hsing" (Chinese character for "Model" when read in Japanese is said "Kata) and then stringing a bunch of "hsing" together in a geometric pattern to allow for easy memorization.
I'd like to see how well Seisan fits that premise. And my interest is also tweaked by the reactions of my student that's an ER doc. I show him a move and don't tell him what it's for. When I ask him to use that move his knowledge of anatomy is so hard wired it's very easy for him to pick out very devastating applications based on the individual model/hsing/kata technique
So now that we've agreed on our caveats - let's see how the exercise progresses.
Series 1 = hasami strike & 3 bushiken strikes
I understand what you're saying Bill. But after attending Patrck McCarthy's seminar I'm doing this exercise to see if I can apply some of his theories.
He specializes in the traditions that informed the Okinawan traditions. Many of those came from southern China. His understanding is that a vast majority of people developing forms in Southern China in the 19th and 18th centuries were working off the idea of creating a "hsing" (Chinese character for "Model" when read in Japanese is said "Kata) and then stringing a bunch of "hsing" together in a geometric pattern to allow for easy memorization.
I'd like to see how well Seisan fits that premise. And my interest is also tweaked by the reactions of my student that's an ER doc. I show him a move and don't tell him what it's for. When I ask him to use that move his knowledge of anatomy is so hard wired it's very easy for him to pick out very devastating applications based on the individual model/hsing/kata technique
So now that we've agreed on our caveats - let's see how the exercise progresses.
Series 1 = hasami strike & 3 bushiken strikes
Last edited by Dana Sheets on Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Did you show compassion today?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I know you are talking China and Southern China, Dana. It is indeed the point. These names are all Chinese names (on pronunciation) after all. It's seisan as opposed to ju san, sanseiryu as opposed to san ju roku. The 9 classical Goju forms all have the same Chinese origins. Simon was indeed talking about how the Chinese (as opposed to the Japanese) named their forms.
McCarthy's theory may still hold. In other words, don't get fixed on the idea that there are only 13 of these sequences. There may be more, or there may be fewer. In my book, you skipped at least one biggie.
*************************
Series 1 = hasami strike & 3 bushiken strikes
This is a classic sequence - go lateral and then go up the middle.
You know my favorite spot for the laterals - right at the jaw joint. It's not necessarily the target per se; it's just a feature. You mess with the jaw joint. You tick off the parotid gland. You send a shock wave in the right direction into the central processing unit. You stimulate some nerves there. What's not to like about that spot?
Following with a technique up the middle may be the logical next step only because the reaction to the first technique may create the opening up the middle - especially if the first technique is blocked. But the triple boshiken sequence means so many things to me. I can take them alone, or think of it in conjunction with the previous technique that may create the opening. These by themselves demonstrate the concept of sen no sen - simultaneous block and attack. Plus...you can hit with the finger tips or the thumb or the palm heel to many open upper-body features that could present themselves (eyes, nose, jaw, throat, etc).
FWIW...
- Bill
McCarthy's theory may still hold. In other words, don't get fixed on the idea that there are only 13 of these sequences. There may be more, or there may be fewer. In my book, you skipped at least one biggie.
*************************
Series 1 = hasami strike & 3 bushiken strikes
This is a classic sequence - go lateral and then go up the middle.
You know my favorite spot for the laterals - right at the jaw joint. It's not necessarily the target per se; it's just a feature. You mess with the jaw joint. You tick off the parotid gland. You send a shock wave in the right direction into the central processing unit. You stimulate some nerves there. What's not to like about that spot?
Following with a technique up the middle may be the logical next step only because the reaction to the first technique may create the opening up the middle - especially if the first technique is blocked. But the triple boshiken sequence means so many things to me. I can take them alone, or think of it in conjunction with the previous technique that may create the opening. These by themselves demonstrate the concept of sen no sen - simultaneous block and attack. Plus...you can hit with the finger tips or the thumb or the palm heel to many open upper-body features that could present themselves (eyes, nose, jaw, throat, etc).
FWIW...
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Yes - simple, easy, incapacitating. That's what I'm looking for.
Hasami - go to the jaw points, or cup the ears, or if you've trained it and favor the harder approach - you can use the foreknuckles of the hiraken fist to blast into the eye sockets and rupture that little bone on the outside edge.
So if you blast the throat, the ears, or the eyes, the reaction on uke's part will be to reach up with their hands to cover the damaged bits. This opens their centerline.
The three bushikens need not all hit the same target or do the same function. But I think if you use them effectively - by the time you're done your uke will be collapsing on the floor because of the combination between the hasami and the bushikens.
Easy - I thinking easy.
So your hasami did something at the neck or above and now your bushikens trail up what is open.
1st strike could go sternum,
2nd strike could go throat
3rd strike could go under the chin with the fingers grabbin the eye socket just under the eyeball
4th strike back to the throat...
In keeping with my other post on Uechi Symbolism - once you do three of something identically you're representing the 10,000 things. So three bushiken strikes can easily represent the infinity of bushiken strikes it takes to put uke to the floor.
Hasami - go to the jaw points, or cup the ears, or if you've trained it and favor the harder approach - you can use the foreknuckles of the hiraken fist to blast into the eye sockets and rupture that little bone on the outside edge.
So if you blast the throat, the ears, or the eyes, the reaction on uke's part will be to reach up with their hands to cover the damaged bits. This opens their centerline.
The three bushikens need not all hit the same target or do the same function. But I think if you use them effectively - by the time you're done your uke will be collapsing on the floor because of the combination between the hasami and the bushikens.
Easy - I thinking easy.
So your hasami did something at the neck or above and now your bushikens trail up what is open.
1st strike could go sternum,
2nd strike could go throat
3rd strike could go under the chin with the fingers grabbin the eye socket just under the eyeball
4th strike back to the throat...
In keeping with my other post on Uechi Symbolism - once you do three of something identically you're representing the 10,000 things. So three bushiken strikes can easily represent the infinity of bushiken strikes it takes to put uke to the floor.
Did you show compassion today?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The ear clap is an excellent "thinking outside the box" application. It's very, very painful and sometimes even disorienting (messing with the vestibular system). It also demands that you continue with the fight or flight, as the game isn't over yet. So it segues well into the next techniques.
The targeting is key here, but specific sequencing is very tricky. After years of doing prearranged kumite where I now ad lib all the way through them, I find targets come and go. It's great to create opening by anticapting responses to what you do, but sometimes people do unexpected things. In the beginning, it's difficult to avoid the temptation of forcing the sequence. It's real art to know half a dozen to a dozen good spots to hit, and then just take them as they present themselves to you. That need becomes readily apparent when you work with different size and shape people.
On your final neck shot... I'm partial to just grabbing the windpipe with my boshiken hand. The subsequent action is obvious. Not something to do on your drunk neighbor at a party...
- Bill
The targeting is key here, but specific sequencing is very tricky. After years of doing prearranged kumite where I now ad lib all the way through them, I find targets come and go. It's great to create opening by anticapting responses to what you do, but sometimes people do unexpected things. In the beginning, it's difficult to avoid the temptation of forcing the sequence. It's real art to know half a dozen to a dozen good spots to hit, and then just take them as they present themselves to you. That need becomes readily apparent when you work with different size and shape people.
On your final neck shot... I'm partial to just grabbing the windpipe with my boshiken hand. The subsequent action is obvious. Not something to do on your drunk neighbor at a party...
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Agreed. And I like the grab the throat bit - if only most people were more my size.... 
I wasn't naming specific targets to put them in stone - only to say they are the kinds of targets that might be presented. Again -the infinity idea of the three - keep going until they're done.
***NOTE***
Boxing the ears is very dangerous - do not do in the dojo. A good alternative is to give the sides of the shoulders a good spirited slap to represent the kind of strike & force you would use on the ears
***********
I also left off the often-taught target of a temple strike. I think that the other options presented are more likely to trigger a reaction from uke that sets you up for the next move.
And folks - please don't be shy - if you think Bill or I is full of doo-doo or if you have an idea to share, bring it on!
I wasn't naming specific targets to put them in stone - only to say they are the kinds of targets that might be presented. Again -the infinity idea of the three - keep going until they're done.
***NOTE***
Boxing the ears is very dangerous - do not do in the dojo. A good alternative is to give the sides of the shoulders a good spirited slap to represent the kind of strike & force you would use on the ears
***********
I also left off the often-taught target of a temple strike. I think that the other options presented are more likely to trigger a reaction from uke that sets you up for the next move.
And folks - please don't be shy - if you think Bill or I is full of doo-doo or if you have an idea to share, bring it on!
Did you show compassion today?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
First, I agree that everyone wears fruit-o-the-looms in this world. We are just two sets of opinions. Heck, I disagree with myself all the time... 
Second, I too consciously left the temple off as targets for the two lateral strikes. It just doesn't grab me. I wouldn't hit the temple with that weapon, as the length of your ridgehand prevents proper penetration into that indented area. Maybe...if you could keep the edges of your thumb joints firm and have them protrude from the side of the ridge hand.
I would prefer another weapon and even another angle of attack.
- Bill
Second, I too consciously left the temple off as targets for the two lateral strikes. It just doesn't grab me. I wouldn't hit the temple with that weapon, as the length of your ridgehand prevents proper penetration into that indented area. Maybe...if you could keep the edges of your thumb joints firm and have them protrude from the side of the ridge hand.
I would prefer another weapon and even another angle of attack.
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Series 2 = throat strike & knee strike
Series 2 = throat strike & knee strike
This is really masterful to me. It doesn't matter if you actually get the tips of your conditioned fingers into their throat or if they simply lean back away from your fingers once they touch the skin -- either way uke will hand you their groin on a platter. (And if they don't rear back - well... you just pushed the font of their trachea into the back of their throat.)
This knee strike doesn't go forward at this point in the kata, it goes forward AND up. You have to get enough forward penetration that the top of your knee and a bit of your thigh is underneath uke's scrotum. Then you're using the top of your knee & a bit of your thigh to smash upwards.
You should be able to pick the uke up off the ground with the force of your strike. This is something I did during my FAST Defense training. Little ole me was able to lift a 6' man off the ground by a good 6 inches. My abs were really sore the next day from the sudden load of holding that much weight - AND it was incredibly satisfying.
I wish I could get Peyton Quinn to do one of his "light-force" knockouts for this one.
The arms aren't pulling uke forward into you - they're up and braced to keep uke's head from slamming into yours while you lift them up in the air.
What do you think? How much fight will be left in a guy after something like that?
This is really masterful to me. It doesn't matter if you actually get the tips of your conditioned fingers into their throat or if they simply lean back away from your fingers once they touch the skin -- either way uke will hand you their groin on a platter. (And if they don't rear back - well... you just pushed the font of their trachea into the back of their throat.)
This knee strike doesn't go forward at this point in the kata, it goes forward AND up. You have to get enough forward penetration that the top of your knee and a bit of your thigh is underneath uke's scrotum. Then you're using the top of your knee & a bit of your thigh to smash upwards.
You should be able to pick the uke up off the ground with the force of your strike. This is something I did during my FAST Defense training. Little ole me was able to lift a 6' man off the ground by a good 6 inches. My abs were really sore the next day from the sudden load of holding that much weight - AND it was incredibly satisfying.
I wish I could get Peyton Quinn to do one of his "light-force" knockouts for this one.
The arms aren't pulling uke forward into you - they're up and braced to keep uke's head from slamming into yours while you lift them up in the air.
What do you think? How much fight will be left in a guy after something like that?
Did you show compassion today?
-
maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Its the way I have trained the last thirty years ,the main point I would make is ,its time consuming [working each position of seisan ] and endurance building also
Lets say you devote 10 minutes to each position of seisan in a workout ,its over the two hr mark ,and thats without doing sanchin or sanseirui .
On a evening Kanbun trained for seven hrs with his seniors ,if you work the three kata like this you would need at least 6 hrs .
max.
Lets say you devote 10 minutes to each position of seisan in a workout ,its over the two hr mark ,and thats without doing sanchin or sanseirui .
On a evening Kanbun trained for seven hrs with his seniors ,if you work the three kata like this you would need at least 6 hrs .
max.
max ainley
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dana
Your perspective on this technique says a lot about your size. I cannot make this work. And interestingly enough, the way I do the technique is quite different as a result.
For a short person against a tall person, lifting the thigh into the scrotum is a great application for this knee movement. For someone my size, I can't get the angle I need very easily. Consequently I've never thought of this as a knee strike. Instead, I've always thought of this as a knee thrust. This even changes the way I do the timing of the upper body to the lower body. I am indeed pulling the person into that knee, and the knee is going straight into the midsection.
I consider a Muay Thai technique to be a variation on this theme. You often see them doing roundhouse knee thrusts into the floating ribs, and doing a counter rotational movement with the upper body. This operates on the same principle of the technique I do above. However instead of pull/thrust, it's rotation/counterrotation.
I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. On the contrary, I'm fascinated by this view of the technique that is very different from the one I have developed and teach.
It's all good.
BTW, this is another situation where, IMO, names on the techniques do a disservice. Who says it's a throat strike? Why not a palm smash to the nose? It requires less precision. And who says this is a knee strike as opposed to a knee thrust? The groin, the solar plexus, and the floating ribs are all wonderful targets that can appear and disappear in a flash. You take what's given to you.
Being able to take the basic movements and ad lib the right application for the right scenario is the best approach, IMO. Practicing multiple applications off the same basic movement creates a parsimony of information that yields quicker response times at the moment of truth. The brain isn't cluttered with a thousand techniques. Instead it has a handful of movements and many possibilities that can be expressed on the fly.
- Bill
Your perspective on this technique says a lot about your size. I cannot make this work. And interestingly enough, the way I do the technique is quite different as a result.
For a short person against a tall person, lifting the thigh into the scrotum is a great application for this knee movement. For someone my size, I can't get the angle I need very easily. Consequently I've never thought of this as a knee strike. Instead, I've always thought of this as a knee thrust. This even changes the way I do the timing of the upper body to the lower body. I am indeed pulling the person into that knee, and the knee is going straight into the midsection.
I consider a Muay Thai technique to be a variation on this theme. You often see them doing roundhouse knee thrusts into the floating ribs, and doing a counter rotational movement with the upper body. This operates on the same principle of the technique I do above. However instead of pull/thrust, it's rotation/counterrotation.
I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. On the contrary, I'm fascinated by this view of the technique that is very different from the one I have developed and teach.
It's all good.
BTW, this is another situation where, IMO, names on the techniques do a disservice. Who says it's a throat strike? Why not a palm smash to the nose? It requires less precision. And who says this is a knee strike as opposed to a knee thrust? The groin, the solar plexus, and the floating ribs are all wonderful targets that can appear and disappear in a flash. You take what's given to you.
Being able to take the basic movements and ad lib the right application for the right scenario is the best approach, IMO. Practicing multiple applications off the same basic movement creates a parsimony of information that yields quicker response times at the moment of truth. The brain isn't cluttered with a thousand techniques. Instead it has a handful of movements and many possibilities that can be expressed on the fly.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
By the way, Dana, have you seen how some folks overtly and intentionally bring their hands down before the foward double hand thrusts? Thinking of that as another technique is fine, I suppose. But it just doesn't grab me. It interrupts the flow for me.
What did you observe in Okinawa on that facet of the movement?
- Bill
What did you observe in Okinawa on that facet of the movement?
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
And again - I'm not saying the techniques can't be interpreted differently - I'm trying to apply McCarthy's paradigm -- that at the end of a hsing/model the opponent is not just hurt, he's incapacitated.
Pulling them into your knee is great if you're always taller & bigger or at least the same size/weight - but would you really want to pull Bruce H's student Sal towards you? At the FAST defense training I saw men over six feel tall use the up & forward knee strike against attackers their size and smaller. The up & forward knee strike doesn't work alone, it works because you've set it up first - with either the throat strike or the palm heel strike to move uke's head behind the hips to expose the groin.
{Bill - if you ever find yourself up near Quakertown PA (Alan Lowell's neck of the woods) you should take the FAST Defense training - worth every penny so see what they're about.}
And if they don't flinch backwards the two fingertip palms thrusting forward with a slight up angle into an oncoming opponent's throat should seal that airway shut. In which case they'll collapse forward and you can bang their face into your knee.
When I look at the kata this way - I don't see the 3 bushikens connected to the throat strike at all. I just see the coming together of the hands as the bridge between the two models. FWIW - Most of the Okinawans I saw did bring the hands down - but for the most part not to low - just to solar plexus height. It was more of the meeting of the hands at that position and less of a downward type movement.[/i]
Pulling them into your knee is great if you're always taller & bigger or at least the same size/weight - but would you really want to pull Bruce H's student Sal towards you? At the FAST defense training I saw men over six feel tall use the up & forward knee strike against attackers their size and smaller. The up & forward knee strike doesn't work alone, it works because you've set it up first - with either the throat strike or the palm heel strike to move uke's head behind the hips to expose the groin.
{Bill - if you ever find yourself up near Quakertown PA (Alan Lowell's neck of the woods) you should take the FAST Defense training - worth every penny so see what they're about.}
And if they don't flinch backwards the two fingertip palms thrusting forward with a slight up angle into an oncoming opponent's throat should seal that airway shut. In which case they'll collapse forward and you can bang their face into your knee.
When I look at the kata this way - I don't see the 3 bushikens connected to the throat strike at all. I just see the coming together of the hands as the bridge between the two models. FWIW - Most of the Okinawans I saw did bring the hands down - but for the most part not to low - just to solar plexus height. It was more of the meeting of the hands at that position and less of a downward type movement.[/i]
Did you show compassion today?
