Uechi-ryu vs Shotokan

[MikeK]

Since there are a few here that study both anybody want to share experiences with training in these two arts? What rough spots have you encountered? Any "aha!" moments in the new art?

Vickie, you've inspired me to relearn the Shotokan kata.

[Tokezu]

MikeK-san.
Nice topic.

I have studied both.

I loved Shotokan. I don’t recall any rough spots, but I do have a comment or two.

My "AHA" moment came just the other day when I realized how similar Heion Shodan was to Kanshiwa. This is probably an old "duuuuuh!" for most of you, but hey, i am slow.... in more ways that one.

I was pondering how Kanei Sensei’s “Uechi committee” came up with the five kata, hojo undo, and other “additional” stuff. Did they use stuff from other styles to which they had been exposed? Then it hit me! Heion Shodon (8 Kyu Shotokan kata) is just the Shotokan flavored Kanshiwa!

Both kata were built on the classic I pattern.

Substitue Mawashi Uke for Gedan Uke and stationary Seiken reverse punches for Seiken front Lunge punches and the first portion of the two kata are nearly identical.

I account for the difference in stepping lunge punches versus stationary reverse punches by remembering the main tendencies of the styles (at that beginning level, anyway). In Shotokan, you attack from afar on a linear line. (Please remember, all you Shotokan Dans, I am talking 9 and 8 kyu level here and not in any way intentionally impugning Shotokan, which I love and hold in great respect, as lesser than any other MA); in Uechi, even from the beginning, we are learning to work the inside, so we use stationary reverses.

I account for the differences in the down blocks....errr....um...the down receivers versus the round receivers by remembering that Shotokan loves to meet force with force, straight ahead, "I am gonna break your friggin' arm with my ferocious block, you stupid person that had the unmitigated audacity and ridiculous temerity to attack ME!" ; Uechi ukes (that's one way to avoid the Block vs. Receiver issue) teach softer redirection and body repositioning so that, by the end of the block, our opponent is in worse position and we are in better position.

Hmmmm. What's next?

In Heion Shodan, after the opening down block/front punches sequences, you've got some niffty diagonally moving Knife Hand blocks and Cat stances, though these cat stances are not equivalent to Uechi Nekko dachis. These knife hand blocks are linear for the most part. In Kanshiwa, your diagonal moves are Mawashi Ukes and kicks.

There are more similarities, but you get da picture.

Also there is a Sanchin kata at the upper levels of Shotokan, though I would say it is more similar to Goju Ryu’s version than Uechi Ryu’s.

The other important thing that stands out is that, admittedly, Funakoshi Sensei removed the "weapons" from his style to make it more appropriate for school children. Recall that he studied for some time under the two Ankos, Anko Ittosu and that other Anko whose name I forget. Funakoshi Sensei was an Okinawan studying “tode” from Okinawans (both of whom studied in southern China). My point (hee heeee, pun INTENDED!) is that he very likely knew and used Uechi-style pointy things.

What is remarkable to me is, even without the Sokosen, Shoken, Bushiken, etc., Shotokan remains an extremely effective style. That being said, how cool is Uechi Ryu with its pointy thingees.

My best,
DL

[Bill Glasheen]

I started with a Shotokan-like system, Mike (Nippon Shorin Ken), and subsequently worked with some superb Shotokan practitioners through my martial journey.

The biggest differences are the depth of the stances, the positioning of the arms w.r.t. the body, and the degree of linearity vs. circularity of the systems. I remember making the transition to Uechi, and being corrected many times about 1) not being so deep with my stance, 2) keeping my elbows from wandering outside a fairly narrow range, and 3) not being so "hard" with my blocks.

You have to realize that the origins of Uechi are an area of southern China where hard-soft, shallow-stanced, hand-oriented, infighting systems were practiced. Other than Uechi's system, you find Wing Chun, white eyebrow, and southern mantis doing similar type fighting. Funakoshi's Shotokan on the other hand has its origins in classical Okinawan styles (such as Shorin Ryu) that draw ultimately from more generic Shaolin fighting systems. Stances are deeper, movements are bigger, and the breadth of techniques is greater. They also don't dwell "inside" the way Uechi practitioners do.

Don't ever lose your Shotokan kata. If you can do these, you know at least 50% of what is going on in any vanilla karate or TKD school.

- Bill

[Tokezu]

One thing to note about Shotokan... (thanks for reminding me Bill; I KNEW i had more to say on the topic!

As I mentioned previously, Sanchin, in Shotokan is, i believe, a Nidan kata. Uechi begins and ends with Sanchin.

Similarly, Shotokan begins with low stances. In the Dan-level kata and techniques, Shotokan explores upright stances more fully. If i recall correctly, Funakoshi indicated he thought upright stances more difficult than lower stances (my thighs DO NOT agree!) to master.

This points out another thought about Uechi in general. Some styles, or at least some dojo in other styles, boast that after only one session, the beginner will be more able to defend themselves than before. I think this is likely hog wash in most cases, but I have a respected Kenpo-flavored friend that swears this is true.

My comment is that, at least in my case, i felt LESS able to defend myself for probably the first four months i studied Uechi Ryu. All that pidgeon-toed, knock-kneed nonsense, after all. Come on!

I don't feel that way now.

I usually tell beginners that it gets better somewhere near the 7 kyu time frame.

DL

[Bill Glasheen]

It IS worth noting that Uechi Ryu does explore deeper stances. But... 1) it is done later, and 2) you don't spend any amount of time in the deep stance.

In general, the deep stances work when you have to cover a lot of distance. Once up close and personal, you are crazy to be in anything but a more shallow stance if you are going to hang around in there for any length of time. That in itself can tell you something about the two systems, and how they generally like to fight.

To prove my theory... Watch any Uechika who spends a lot of time in sport karate. Many of the champions (Gary Khoury comes to mind) fight in deeper stances. Why? They play "hit and run" with their karate. It's all about scoring points one at a time. That's the SPORT of WKF.

- Bill

[Stryke]

AHA moments concern the blocks , the elbow position is the same as Sanchin

and the different blocks soto , uchi etc are all just snapshots of the Wauke with added emphasis , the occurrence of soto uke Uchi uke uke in Shotokan very much just being another interpretation of the wauke .

IMHO

the aha moment of understanding were rotation fits in both styles , and compression , the difference in emphasis but the similar goal .

The snapshot stances of shotokan , versus the fluidity of Sanchin dachi , the , Hangetsu dachi versus Sanchin , were shotokans gone a little awry .

the similar tactical themes done at different ranges .

the different ranges of grappling and how it effects your movements , the leverage , the difference between a centreline system and Uechi pivoting the opponent around there centre IMHO

all these lessons enforce what you know and what your learning .

theres much much more ....

All karate is the same , if one spends a little time beyond Robot ryu they`ll understand .

[Stryke]

hmm more thoughts on this .

the rotation thing is something that confuses many , and Shotokan is to the extreme in the same way Uechi has become .

rotation is not bad , I think the amount of rotation is imporatant though , i think it (as with the chambering position in both styles) Is directly related to distance from the opponent .

As you get closer you square up more , the squareness of uechi reflecting the preferred range .

where as at a longer distance were grappling isnt as big an import the blading is tactically an advantage , It also does help in the development of power , especially where MOMENTUM (read range) is concerned .

simalar thing with the stances , i want to come up higher as i get closer , I WANT TO PROTECT MY GROIN AND MY BASE .

Longer away I want to lower my centre and have as much bracing as possible for momentum type attacks .

having said this the same principles come into play .

More ramblings from the Style Disfunctional Stryke .......

To prove my theory... Watch any Uechika who spends a lot of time in sport karate. Many of the champions (Gary Khoury comes to mind) fight in deeper stances. Why? They play "hit and run" with their karate. It's all about scoring points one at a time. That's the SPORT of WKF

Yes and no Bill , I do agree but it`s more a range issue also , as above , get in and out , deffinatley the point format emphasises it .

you see it creeping into all sorts of areas , and the emphasis on distancing becomes the goal , It all has its place .

Lower stances are for developing the power to close , not necessarily for use in fighting .

[Bill Glasheen]

I think we are agreeing with each other, Stryke.

I've also spent time studying Goju, which is sort of kind of like a cross between the two systems. I find an ability to get it all to fit with some of the same thought processes that you are going through, Stryke.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Yup I concur

Goju is Interesting too , I`m also a fan of kyokushin and not only for the contact , the blend of Goju and Shotokan revealing some interesting thoughts .

I still see Goju as more Uechi though , Lucky enough to train down here with Sensei Terry Hill now and then , former world full contact Goju champ , understand a lot more of what hes shown me since my study of Uechi .

Oh and did i mention Enshin ? , now theres blending long range and grabbing

it`s all one art in the end .

[MikeK]

I agree with you about the blading Marcus, Vickie had to remind me to square up during arm rubbing my last class. From my experience some Shotokan ryu either want to slip the attack and come from the outside, or clear the middle and do a 50 yard run through the opponent busting him up along the way.

They also don't dwell "inside" the way Uechi practitioners do.

I think that's right Bill. I've seen the same techniques in both arts, right down to the pointy things, but there's something about the way each approaches the fight that's somehow different. I see glimmers of Shotokan every once in awhile during the horse stance elbow sections of kanshiwa and kanshu, something about the block and driving in. On the other hand I found myself in sanchin when working some inside techniques with my Shotokai friend, who BTW likes the pointy things too.

Tokezu, you dissin Heian Shodan? That's the kata where I learned one of my favorite elbow breaks. I was taught that there are simple kata but no beginner kata. Also I haven't seen much or any of the force on force techniques from my Shotokai instructor, but I did see it in spades at my TKD school. But that's Shotokan:one art many methods.

As I mentioned previously, Sanchin, in Shotokan is, i believe, a Nidan kata. Uechi begins and ends with Sanchin.

In Isshinryu the first kata I learned was Seisan but that's an advanced kata in Uechi, but in Ishhin Ryu sanchin is advanced but it's Uechi-ryus first. It is funny how different arts look at what's important. They all eventually arrive at about the same place, if their goals are the same, just in a different order.

Hey, It's all good.

[Stryke]

As I mentioned previously, Sanchin, in Shotokan is, i believe, a Nidan kata. Uechi begins and ends with Sanchin.

depends on the school traditionally Sanchin isnt a shotokan kata though some now do do it .

traditionally the naihanchi(tekki) kata provivded the same base as Sanchin , some other styles that had both dropped Sanchin as the lessons became irrelevant , would have to look into which ryu though .

From my experience some Shotokan ryu either want to slip the attack and come from the outside, or clear the middle and do a 50 yard run through the opponent busting him up along the way.

pretty much it , aint it neat

Also I haven't seen much or any of the force on force techniques from my Shotokai instructor, but I did see it in spades at my TKD school. But that's Shotokan:one art many methods.

the shotokan shotokai thing is a perfect example .. Ive seen beautifully flowing shotokai and stuff so clos it resembles JKA shotokan , but they way i`m doing shotokan now adays resembles more the fluidity youd expect from shotokai ... all the same art . It`s easy to see the same thing in Uechi .

As long as the harmonies remain intact it`s all good .

thanks Mike , enjoy comparing notes

As for Tkd I see the influence on Kyokushin ..... hmm kind of weird huh , Shotokan taken of on a tangent then brought back to a style thats partly based on Shotokan .... All the greats are good theives .

[MikeK]

I never got the flowing shotokai stuff until it hit me, literally. I also realized that most of what's happening in Shotokan is between the stances, that what's happening when the stance is hit is the completion of the technique with the actual main part happening somewhere before that. Like the elbow breaks during jodan age uke in Heian Shodan. At least that's the way I learned it.

[Stryke]

Absolutely

nothing like an Age uke to the throat either once youve got control of that limb , one of my favorites myself

[Stryke]

you've got some niffty diagonally moving Knife Hand blocks and Cat stances, though these cat stances are not equivalent to Uechi Nekko dachis.

The Kokutsu dachi is the exact equivelant to nekaoshidashi , they were in fact originally done as nekioshidashi and were lengthened as were all the stances as a training tool .

the weight is the same in proportion and theyre intended for the same use , and develops a hell of a front snap kick used correctly .

[MikeK]

A forearm to the chin and throat is great, especially when moving in. The elbow break happens when the open hand closes, rotates and moves down, and the other hand crosses in front of it. When that rising arm hits the opponents elbow from underneath all sorts of goodness happens. Great against chokes too. Even when done lightly it's not fun for the uke.

BTW Bill has a great chudan ude uke. He showed me something Tuesday night and I just about have most of the feeling back in my hand.