Would like to ask of the experts an opinion....
Has anyone ever encountered any kind of trouble or dis-gruntle "ness" (yes I realize I make up words lol) between a black belt "student" in one class who then teaches the adult hour a couple times... who then goes back to simply participating in class?
Has there ever been issue between say other students and the sometimes teacher- issue.
We all understand that a "teacher" / Sensei is always a student as well- and thus being a good teacher requires a good understanding of being a student- but what about the "other" students who watch the "Sensei" go from leading class to taking class....
Has this ever come up as an issue regarding respecting that person/black belt as a black belt who can teach?
Should you allow other students whom aren't black belts to correct and or teach other kyu ranks- ?
Should the balck belt student/instructor correct when not leading class?
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks for the read
Kerry
Instructor to Student to Instructor....
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Kerry
All of this depends. Every dojo has its unique protocol and rules of engagement.
I believe the head instrucor can set the right attitude amongst all the students and teachers. Everyone needs to understand (with both talk and walk) that all are learning. Furthermore the ultimate authority is truth over personality.
Individuals can demand respect, but ultimately they earn it through their actions, their attitudes, and their abilities.
That being said, there should be no problem with people changing roles in class. I do attempt (when possible) to show clearly who is in charge at any one point in time with protocol. For example, it's very helpful if you have someone up front leading exercises to have a "bow in" of that authority, and a "changing of the guard" (with bows) when authority figure changes. It may seem silly at first, but the protocol makes things less confusing for the students.
This can get very detailed. But the bottom line is that this is both possible and even necessary to operate a healthy, learning, and growing dojo.
- Bill
All of this depends. Every dojo has its unique protocol and rules of engagement.
I believe the head instrucor can set the right attitude amongst all the students and teachers. Everyone needs to understand (with both talk and walk) that all are learning. Furthermore the ultimate authority is truth over personality.
Individuals can demand respect, but ultimately they earn it through their actions, their attitudes, and their abilities.
That being said, there should be no problem with people changing roles in class. I do attempt (when possible) to show clearly who is in charge at any one point in time with protocol. For example, it's very helpful if you have someone up front leading exercises to have a "bow in" of that authority, and a "changing of the guard" (with bows) when authority figure changes. It may seem silly at first, but the protocol makes things less confusing for the students.
This can get very detailed. But the bottom line is that this is both possible and even necessary to operate a healthy, learning, and growing dojo.
- Bill
This is an interesting topic.
One disclaimer: You asked for “the experts’ an opinion”. I am no expert in martial arts in general or the situation you describe in particular. However, I have many opinions and few opportunities to expound upon them unchecked!
So here goes.
You mention “trouble” and “disgruntleness” (how about “dischuffed” as an adjective?”); for what follows, I will assume you observed something that led you to believe that there was some issue.
There are frequently issues between students and students, teachers and students, and even teachers and teachers. The dojo is a very accurate microcosm of life, no more, no less. We should expect to see in our dojo all the joys and problems we encounter elsewhere. One difference I hope for is RESPECT; I tend to TRY to assure that I bring an increase in respect and courtesy to any dojo I enter and I get frustrated when students and teachers fail to inject additional respect into their dojo. But that is my issue.
You ask, “…what about the "other" students who watch the "Sensei" go from leading class to taking class?” It is hard to answer this because "Sensei" gets used differently in various dojo. In my dojo, there is only one Sensei and he owns the palce and owns the highest rank. In other places, anyone with a dan rank is a Sensei. And in still other palces, the Sensei is the person that is standing in front of the class leading.
With regard to all situations listed above ACCEPT when the Sensei is the Top Dog-
In my experience, this is a very typical occurrence. Black belts sometimes teach from the front (Shomen), other times learn from the floor as other Black Belts teach from Shomen. I do not look on this as an ill omen for the Black Belt. Each and every black belt and each and every student, from 10 Kyu to 1 Kyu, have something they can teach everyone in the dojo, even the Sensei.
Now perhaps the situation you describe involves THE Sensei…. That might be different and I have not witnessed that. Seems like having your main Sensei replaced would be a topic of discussion in the dojo...
You ask about respect. Yes, in my experience, kyu students and dan students frequently disrespect one another. It *****. People, and I include myself in this mess, tend to fail to understand how much they can learn from one another, especially when their belts are darker, the Sokosens more pokey, and their Wa Ukes more graceful.
Should kyu-level students correct and/or teach other kyu ranks? You asked our “opinions" so here's mine:
Absolutely! This has been the case in every dojo I have attended or visited or read about. Is it universal? Almost certainly not. Is it desirable? From my prospective, YES! Teaching, as you know, is the best way to learn.
Should the dan-level student correct when not leading class? That is a tougher question and one that is certainly dependent on the Sensei (the Big Cheese) and the atmosphere that Sensei wants to create. Certainly I can’t envision a situation where a student, dan or kyu-level, would correct a leader while the leader is leading. Perhaps they might offer a different or additional interpretation in a respectful manner at the correct time?
In the dojo that I call home (seems like I am there more than where I live, anyway!), our Sensei is secure enough in himself to allow free exchange of ideas. We occasionally discuss moves and interpretations. However, no one is gonna stop him or any other leader in the middle of an exercise to correct him. On the other hand, some kyu level student frequenlty do just that when the dan-level teacher is leading individual learning sessions, much to the consternation of the Black belt. That, however, is an administrtive issue that needs to be addressed by that Black belt and his Sensei. In our dojo, those kind of administrtive issues get handled with Shokens as ofter as not!
In our dojo, the dan-level students are universally respected by each other and the kyu-level students. As a result, we often “interpret” our karate. But only for a short time. We ain’t there to talk, after all. AND, (I feel that this is really important), it is not really “our” karate; it is YOUR karate when all is said and done and you have some gold stripes on the end of your tattered belt.
Remember- Karate begins and ends with respect.
Great questions.
DL
One disclaimer: You asked for “the experts’ an opinion”. I am no expert in martial arts in general or the situation you describe in particular. However, I have many opinions and few opportunities to expound upon them unchecked!
So here goes.
You mention “trouble” and “disgruntleness” (how about “dischuffed” as an adjective?”); for what follows, I will assume you observed something that led you to believe that there was some issue.
There are frequently issues between students and students, teachers and students, and even teachers and teachers. The dojo is a very accurate microcosm of life, no more, no less. We should expect to see in our dojo all the joys and problems we encounter elsewhere. One difference I hope for is RESPECT; I tend to TRY to assure that I bring an increase in respect and courtesy to any dojo I enter and I get frustrated when students and teachers fail to inject additional respect into their dojo. But that is my issue.
You ask, “…what about the "other" students who watch the "Sensei" go from leading class to taking class?” It is hard to answer this because "Sensei" gets used differently in various dojo. In my dojo, there is only one Sensei and he owns the palce and owns the highest rank. In other places, anyone with a dan rank is a Sensei. And in still other palces, the Sensei is the person that is standing in front of the class leading.
With regard to all situations listed above ACCEPT when the Sensei is the Top Dog-
In my experience, this is a very typical occurrence. Black belts sometimes teach from the front (Shomen), other times learn from the floor as other Black Belts teach from Shomen. I do not look on this as an ill omen for the Black Belt. Each and every black belt and each and every student, from 10 Kyu to 1 Kyu, have something they can teach everyone in the dojo, even the Sensei.
Now perhaps the situation you describe involves THE Sensei…. That might be different and I have not witnessed that. Seems like having your main Sensei replaced would be a topic of discussion in the dojo...
You ask about respect. Yes, in my experience, kyu students and dan students frequently disrespect one another. It *****. People, and I include myself in this mess, tend to fail to understand how much they can learn from one another, especially when their belts are darker, the Sokosens more pokey, and their Wa Ukes more graceful.
Should kyu-level students correct and/or teach other kyu ranks? You asked our “opinions" so here's mine:
Absolutely! This has been the case in every dojo I have attended or visited or read about. Is it universal? Almost certainly not. Is it desirable? From my prospective, YES! Teaching, as you know, is the best way to learn.
Should the dan-level student correct when not leading class? That is a tougher question and one that is certainly dependent on the Sensei (the Big Cheese) and the atmosphere that Sensei wants to create. Certainly I can’t envision a situation where a student, dan or kyu-level, would correct a leader while the leader is leading. Perhaps they might offer a different or additional interpretation in a respectful manner at the correct time?
In the dojo that I call home (seems like I am there more than where I live, anyway!), our Sensei is secure enough in himself to allow free exchange of ideas. We occasionally discuss moves and interpretations. However, no one is gonna stop him or any other leader in the middle of an exercise to correct him. On the other hand, some kyu level student frequenlty do just that when the dan-level teacher is leading individual learning sessions, much to the consternation of the Black belt. That, however, is an administrtive issue that needs to be addressed by that Black belt and his Sensei. In our dojo, those kind of administrtive issues get handled with Shokens as ofter as not!
In our dojo, the dan-level students are universally respected by each other and the kyu-level students. As a result, we often “interpret” our karate. But only for a short time. We ain’t there to talk, after all. AND, (I feel that this is really important), it is not really “our” karate; it is YOUR karate when all is said and done and you have some gold stripes on the end of your tattered belt.
Remember- Karate begins and ends with respect.
Great questions.
DL
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gmattson
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- Contact:
Kerry...
It is a shame that you can't visit the "Hut", being that you are so close. There, you will see many high ranked individuals (including myself) switch roles often, without any problems whatsoever.
We look at this exchange of position to be a great opportunity to learn other perspectives, applications, viewpoints, techniques and most importantly. . . an opportunity to practice a little humility and open-mindedness.
We look at this exchange of position to be a great opportunity to learn other perspectives, applications, viewpoints, techniques and most importantly. . . an opportunity to practice a little humility and open-mindedness.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
The Hut is a unique place, George. The comraderie there is second to none.
I, for one, particularly enjoyed standing behind an instructor who decided to "take class" and considered it an opportunity to not be missed. In my earlier days, it was my strategy to get behind the most advanced student while lined as a group so that I could project the image of him upon myself. I remember many times lining up "below" lower ranks when I could get away with it to be directly behind a superior kicker or other exercise to use him as my model, as my challenge. It was a treat to line up directly behind a good performing Sensei, trying to make my moves exactly like his, and sometimes even better.
Again, this has to be a personality issue between students, such as lack of respect one person has for another, or just plain blatant dislike of an individual by another. A group of solutions are simple. If it is a one-nighter then the one having trouble can either shower-up and leave or "eat crow" for an hour or so; if it is regular then the one having an issue can pick another class or another night; if the dojo isn't big enough for that, then there's the door if mediation can't correct the issue. If the student giving class is beligerent or nasty toward another, or is simply a power or control freak, and is creating some sort of difficulty, then it would be a mature decision on the part of his senior to remove him from that position ASAP until he can be dealt with and corrections made. There may be other solutions, but those immediately come to mind at this late hour.
When, how, and if appropriate, and with proper guidance by his/her seniors. Each dojo defines itself in terms of sempai/kohai structure.1) Should you allow other students whom aren't black belts to correct and or teach other kyu ranks- ?
2) Should the balck belt student/instructor correct when not leading class?
Sounds like a student who feels humiliated by being "reduced" to a normal student again. Good for his training if he successfully gets over it and returns to normal.Has anyone ever encountered any kind of trouble or dis-gruntle "ness" (yes I realize I make up words lol) between a black belt "student"
in one class who then teaches the adult hour a couple times... who then goes back to simply participating in class?
Even "Sensei" needs a good workout once in a while. If the only way he can get his occasional workout is to fall back once in a while and let another count cadence, so be it. On occasion I let different students lead my classes and it does good for them. Often before a test I will select students to run through giving classes up to their level as part of the test of their knowledge and abilities with minimal or no interference from me while I work out. If other students have problems with this, it has been, in my experience, some sort of mixing oil with water as in a student having a difficult time accepting instruction from the particular individual giving class.Has there ever been issue between say other students and the sometimes teacher- issue.
We all understand that a "teacher" / Sensei is always a student as well- and thus being a good teacher requires a good understanding of being a student- but what about the "other" students who watch the "Sensei" go from leading class to taking class....
I, for one, particularly enjoyed standing behind an instructor who decided to "take class" and considered it an opportunity to not be missed. In my earlier days, it was my strategy to get behind the most advanced student while lined as a group so that I could project the image of him upon myself. I remember many times lining up "below" lower ranks when I could get away with it to be directly behind a superior kicker or other exercise to use him as my model, as my challenge. It was a treat to line up directly behind a good performing Sensei, trying to make my moves exactly like his, and sometimes even better.
As a kyu/gup student at many places in my early life, there was often scuttlebut about instructors and BBs. Seems that kyu/gup students like to talk regularly about black belts in the locker room. I remember once there was a real personality issue. It was settled behind the dojo.Has this ever come up as an issue regarding respecting that person/black belt as a black belt who can teach?
Again, this has to be a personality issue between students, such as lack of respect one person has for another, or just plain blatant dislike of an individual by another. A group of solutions are simple. If it is a one-nighter then the one having trouble can either shower-up and leave or "eat crow" for an hour or so; if it is regular then the one having an issue can pick another class or another night; if the dojo isn't big enough for that, then there's the door if mediation can't correct the issue. If the student giving class is beligerent or nasty toward another, or is simply a power or control freak, and is creating some sort of difficulty, then it would be a mature decision on the part of his senior to remove him from that position ASAP until he can be dealt with and corrections made. There may be other solutions, but those immediately come to mind at this late hour.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
With all the work we have going, Sensei Mattson, even the grociery store is hard to get to! LOL though I would so love- to get to the Hut- Steve has mentioned getting me there several times.
I have "wondered" about it being a possible issue, when my Sensei is ill-and I take over the classes for him.... I've noticed that the class itself is diffrent... just a tad... but this might be my own nerves teaching adults, that I mostly work out with...
my dojo's are mostly children at the moment-
I try to never ever step in on our "top-dog" Sensei but the situation here is a tiny bit diffrent. Our top dog is my husband and we both own the dojo's LOL so I'm not sure if that allows me a tiny bit of the cheese or not. I personaly do not believe so because he has been practicing almost as long as I've been alive- (almost at least) so I always deferr to him-
We also do the bowing in and out - during the excercices as well as partner work- when in doubt- go ahead and bow- never hurts- :) that's the motto-
As for it being a personal issue- might be- though I don't intend for it... I try not to be big bad black belt person, just because I have a couple schools else-where... I try to keep my class times as sacred time for me because I'm just as much a student as my little kyu's. I'm still learning the kata obviously- I'm at the 6th- so.... Just in the way I personaly view class time that I "get" to take- the key word there being "get" to have the pleasure-
We travel a bit to community centers- so this is why I was curious... I teach at schools so the adults don't usualy come to the grade schools to take class with me but on occassion I help if my husband is ill. There hasn't been anything ever overt that made me think someone was being dis-respectful.... but the thought had occured to me because I felt a little strange I didn't want to be seen as hoyty toyty I guess is the best way to put it :)
This has been helpful! Pretty much covered what I was thinking too so I do appreciate it.
Our Kyu ranks when say we are in lines kicking bags etc- will tell another student what they themselves have learned I believe- don't think it goes past that - but I wasn't sure if most dojo's even allowed talking! :) So that's why I asked :)
I guess Sensei Mattson was right, I need to enjoy the company of other Sensei's as well eh? :) I've only been to a couple other schools :)
The sanchin differences topic is incredible as well!
Kerry
I have "wondered" about it being a possible issue, when my Sensei is ill-and I take over the classes for him.... I've noticed that the class itself is diffrent... just a tad... but this might be my own nerves teaching adults, that I mostly work out with...
my dojo's are mostly children at the moment-
I try to never ever step in on our "top-dog" Sensei but the situation here is a tiny bit diffrent. Our top dog is my husband and we both own the dojo's LOL so I'm not sure if that allows me a tiny bit of the cheese or not. I personaly do not believe so because he has been practicing almost as long as I've been alive- (almost at least) so I always deferr to him-
We also do the bowing in and out - during the excercices as well as partner work- when in doubt- go ahead and bow- never hurts- :) that's the motto-
As for it being a personal issue- might be- though I don't intend for it... I try not to be big bad black belt person, just because I have a couple schools else-where... I try to keep my class times as sacred time for me because I'm just as much a student as my little kyu's. I'm still learning the kata obviously- I'm at the 6th- so.... Just in the way I personaly view class time that I "get" to take- the key word there being "get" to have the pleasure-
We travel a bit to community centers- so this is why I was curious... I teach at schools so the adults don't usualy come to the grade schools to take class with me but on occassion I help if my husband is ill. There hasn't been anything ever overt that made me think someone was being dis-respectful.... but the thought had occured to me because I felt a little strange I didn't want to be seen as hoyty toyty I guess is the best way to put it :)
This has been helpful! Pretty much covered what I was thinking too so I do appreciate it.
Our Kyu ranks when say we are in lines kicking bags etc- will tell another student what they themselves have learned I believe- don't think it goes past that - but I wasn't sure if most dojo's even allowed talking! :) So that's why I asked :)
I guess Sensei Mattson was right, I need to enjoy the company of other Sensei's as well eh? :) I've only been to a couple other schools :)
The sanchin differences topic is incredible as well!
Kerry
Just be yourself; do not try to be your sensei, and it'll work out better.I have "wondered" about it being a possible issue, when my Sensei is ill-and I take over the classes for him.... I've noticed that the class itself is diffrent... just a tad... but this might be my own nerves teaching adults, that I mostly work out with...
Relax and enjoy your teaching; have fun with the students. Students can tell when an instructor is having a good time or not, and that mental attitude seems to permeate through the class.
Above all, Kerry, have confidence in yourself and don't let it be shaken.
Good luck.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
Thank you Allen- :)
little side note for those who know of my story I wrote-(yeah an author just typed out that sentence LMAO) I have been "engaged" as an "author" for the first time. :) I'll be going to a local library to read my story (The Spirit Dragon...) do some book signing- Help the kids discuss bullying issues at the school- going to be able to hi light the karate a bit and "do some" little things that we could all do in a library- It's going to be like a bully seminar type thing for the kids-
it wil be diffrent going as an "author" for me- as opposed to "the karate teacher" that wrote a book- if that makes sense to anyone :)
should be kinda cool- nice little Uechi foot note- :)
Kerry
little side note for those who know of my story I wrote-(yeah an author just typed out that sentence LMAO) I have been "engaged" as an "author" for the first time. :) I'll be going to a local library to read my story (The Spirit Dragon...) do some book signing- Help the kids discuss bullying issues at the school- going to be able to hi light the karate a bit and "do some" little things that we could all do in a library- It's going to be like a bully seminar type thing for the kids-
it wil be diffrent going as an "author" for me- as opposed to "the karate teacher" that wrote a book- if that makes sense to anyone :)
should be kinda cool- nice little Uechi foot note- :)
Kerry
