Throws versus locks.

[MikeK]

It's like this. If the kata have throws, you need someone to throw to practice. If you don't do bunkai with the kata, you'll never learn to do the kata move on the street. And if you and your partner don't learn ukemi, I guarantee you that you'll never learn to throw anybody.

Bill, something I was discussing with someone this weekend was that not everything we think are throws are throws. Some throws are throws only because of ukemi not because they actually lift and toss someone. This came up because a friend was walking me through the effects of some wrists and joint locks. It basically went break the wrist, grind and twist the broken bones (the throw part) and then go for the fight ender. Do you think it is worth while teaching these non-throws in a different method than always with ukemi?

BTW, Rich when are we doing rolling and falling again?

[RACastanet]

"BTW, Rich when are we doing rolling and falling again?"

How does tomorrow sound?

Rich

[MikeK]

Sounds great Rich! I really need to start working on those.Thanks.

[Norm Abrahamson]

MikeK:

Throws: A generic term used for putting an opponent on the ground. Throws do not always require "lifting" somebody and dropping them. Throws include sweeps, reaps, sacrifices and a variety of ways to disrupt balance to put an opponent down.

Ukemi: Falling and rolling to protect oneself. You are correct that if you can't fall, you aren't likely to practice throws. However, ukemi can also be important to protect yourself from being hurt by a lock. For example, if someone is really applying a kotegaeshi (wrist lock), you may have to stemi, or flip yourself, to save your wrist.

Throws and locks, like any other techniques, are often used together. The lock may set up the throw, or the throw may set up the lock. Both should be practiced in a variety of situations to learn the feel of each and to be able to apply them from a variety of positions.

Final thought: Ukemi is not likely to be effective unless practiced regularly. You can only get comfortable falling by doing it. And doing it. And doing it.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[Bill Glasheen]

Fantastic post. Please read very, very carefully.

I fixed your spelling issue, Norm.

Kote = forearm/wrist
gaeshi = supination

Kotegaeshi = wrist or forearm supination (to an extreme in the martial context)

Kotehineri = wrist or forearm pronation (to an extreme in the martial sense)

In its most advanced form, ukemi (the art of rolling and falling) isn't about defensive capabilities. It's about anticipating trouble and seeking a better position and/or orientation. In the most extreme sense, rolls and falls can become attacks.

Consider Gettysburg. Union troops were chased by the Confederates, and they congregated on the high ground. This subsequently led to a slaughter when General Lee ordered his troops to march against them. "Escape" then ultimately was not defensive at all. Like a great chess master, the Union Army turned movement to their advantage, and used it to defeat their opposition.

Did they "mean" that? Who knows... All that mattered is that it was the beginning of the end of the war, and it helped Lincoln get re-elected.

- Bill

[chef]

Rich, are your referring to the Uechi class or the Marine class? Does your Marine group ever allow women to participate? I thought you said it didn't. Do they prefer to keep the sexes separate?

If so, just casual observing is allowed? What time does your Marine group meet?

Regards,
Vicki

[Mark Weitz]

we must also train to not get stuck in the idea of seeing locks/throws as discreet events. These things flow out of opportunities and the opportunity for a lock can be fleeting.

I've had a number of experiences in sparring where locks present themelves as opportunities but cannot be finished for a number of reasons, such as overwhelming strength on the part of the uke. At any rate, the position one finds oneself to do the lock is very advantageous and can flow into a throw, sweep, or projection of one kine or another. Think position first.

Mark

[RACastanet]

"Rich, are your referring to the Uechi class or the Marine class?"
I'm referring to the usual stuff I do in Uechi class.

" Does your Marine group ever allow women to participate? "
Oh yes, if they are Marines. The ladies are very tough and there is one in the area that participates.

"Do they prefer to keep the sexes separate?"
No separation. The ladies do everything the men do. The requirements do not differentiate by sex. I know a few female Instructor/Trainers and they are as tough as the guys.

"If so, just casual observing is allowed? What time does your Marine group meet?"

Sure. Most Fridays at 1315 in the large room. Not today though.

Rich

[Norm Abrahamson]

It can be tough for some folks to integrate joint locks and throws into Uechi classes between exercises, kata, drills, pre-arranged kumite, bunkai and sparring. A class spent on ground work, or learning specific judo type throws does not seem like Uechi Ryu. One thing that Mike Murphy has done with some success in his school, is teaching a "down" version of various kumite and bunkai.

This type of exercise starts with the famialiar and expands it. For instance, if a down version of kyu kumite is done, the first point is done the traditional way. However, after the final right punch, the point will be finished with a lock or throw to control the opponent and bring him down to the floor. Students are opened up to the idea that locks, throws and ukemi are not separate from Uechi Ryu, but an integral part of the system.

Once students become comfortable with applying specific throws and locks during bunkai and kumite, they invariably experiment with different locking and grappling techniques from different attacks. All of this is done while still applying proper distancing, striking, kicking and blocking techniques familiar to Uechika.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[GSantaniello]

Norm,

You bring out some very good points and concepts. However, i would have to tend to dissagree with the analogy that wrist locks and throws are an integral part of uechi-ryu.

Consider this, you have the advantage of an instructor who is skilled in ju-jitsu. He also teaches it as a seperate class at your dojo. Many who study uechi there also partake in some ju-jitsu training.

Therefore, the ability to incorperate many movements into your "down- bunkie" as i have seen, is more so within your dojo than others.

One must learn how to apply the wrist locks without injury to one's partner. It is a co-operative drill that a partner must also learn to go with the applied pressure in a way that will not tear or damage ligiments or joints.

As for falls, as you know there is a correct way of rolling out or breaking one's fall so as to prevent injury. This often requires some mat work and much practice.

Aikido or jujitsu does provide a base for knowledge in these areas. As from my experience of visiting many dojo's, those without exposure to any such training are less likely to integrate such skills.

With all respect, your dojo is skilled in this area. However, many do not have this cross-training incoperated into there format.

Respectfully,

[MikeK]

As for falls, as you know there is a correct way of rolling out or breaking one's fall so as to prevent injury. This often requires some mat work and much practice.

As I found out today. Oiy, I need much mat work and much practice.

Aikido or jujitsu does provide a base for knowledge in these areas. As from my experience of visiting many dojo's, those without exposure to any such training are less likely to integrate such skills.

But there are locks and takedowns that can be trained without having to learn much ukemi. I just can't think of karate without the locks.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

If executed fully, most of the throws and takedowns in kata do not allow the opponent to fall or roll to prevent injury. If one is able/allowed to fall or roll properly following a technique, it is an opening to be capitalized upon. Ukemi is about allowing and taking advantage of the attackers force and the floor and gravity to "turn things around" so to speak. If one is better at ukemi than the opponent is at tuite then, then, as Bill said, they can be offensive. But, as good ukes, we generally allow our partner the safe way out. As combatants, if the techniques are performed fully and well, the ukemi may not even be possible for our opponent.

[Guest]

One must learn how to fall correctly

http://www.cjp.fi/liikan/_private/image ... skater.mov

Thats got to hurt!

[Norm Abrahamson]

Gary,

You are right that several of us cross train and that did aid in initially blending ju jitsu practice into Uechi practice. However, the more the locks and throws are incorporated in Uechi practice, the more opportunities and interpretations are revealed in kata and bunkai. For instance, if you and an opponent are grabbing each other, who’s to say a muwate isn’t a throw or load for a throw? In Sensei Mattson’s “Uechi Ryu Karate Do” several take downs, locks and throws are demonstrated in the self defense series at pages 211-240. Locks and throws have always been a part of the system, although they have not always been practiced regularly.

As you say, locks and throws must be practiced safely so as not to injure training partners, but the same can be said for punches and kicks. And students must learn to fall properly, but that too can be taught in Uechi classes.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

MikeK:
Final thought: Ukemi is not likely to be effective unless practiced regularly. You can only get comfortable falling by doing it. And doing it. And doing it.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson

Ukemi doesn't work unless the thrower allows the throwee to fall properly. That is pretty much what judo and aikido are all about.