What if a Bird won't sing?

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Tokezu
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What if a Bird won't sing?

Post by Tokezu »

I’ve thought long and hard before deciding to post this in a forum. However, there is no other place I can hope to find others with an interest in what is admittedly a bit esoteric. I looked for a forum that would be an appropriate place for this discussion. Bill’s forum description states that anything is ok for this forum so here goes!

In the late 16th century, three men forged the various warring clans of Japan into a (mostly) unified society: Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hidiyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu.

The fruition of this struggle was loosely depicted in James Clavell’s Shogun which is, if not entirely historically accurate, one ripping great yarn. Clavell named the eventual victor in these struggles “Toronaga”; in reality, the man that would become Shogun had a veritable succession of names (as was common in that time), though he is know traditionally as Tokugawa Ieyasu. Ieyasu, having originated in a tiny, impoverished clan and having spent all of his youth as a hostage to a much larger, more prestigious clan, could likely never have pulled off the coup by himself. Indeed, in his typical style, he rolled in on the coat tails of others and, using his characteristic patience, struck when opportunity presented itself.

Which brings me at last to the subject on which I’d like your input:

Oda Nobunaga rose from obscurity from his place as a teenaged ruler of a piece of the province of Odwara to become ruler of perhaps 2/3rds of the country. In the year 1576, Toyotomi Hidiyoshi appears in the record, a peasant who had rapidly climbed to prominence in Nobunaga’s regime. Hidiyoshi, like Nobunaga, is remembered as a brilliant tactician and an excellent general. When Nobunga was assassinated by one of his vassals, after a brief struggle, Toyotomi Hidiyoshi completed the unification though he never took the title Shogun.

All three men mentioned above are remembered in a common poem known to Japanese school children, a poem that shows the different style each man displayed throughout his life:

What if a bird won’t sing?
  • Nobunaga says “Kill it.”
    Hidiyoshi says “Make it want to sing.”
    Ieyasu says “Wait.”

My question (finally!) is:

Did Nobunaga succeed because he made excellent use of Hidiyoshi’s talent or did Hidiyoshi succeed because he had a really great mentor in Nobunaga?

DLF
"The spirit is forged in the furnace of the will."
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

IMO... Yes.

:wink:

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Chris H.
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Post by Chris H. »

:) Excellent question!

I would have to say that Hidiyoshi was more successful because he used both men as mentor's. He found the strengths and weakness in both and blended the two and found the balance that made him a great leader, someone that the people under him admired and would do anything for.
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Tokezu
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Post by Tokezu »

Chris-
I agree completely.
One of Hidiyoshi’s great strengths was identifying and satisfying the motivations of others in the completion is his own (Hidiyoshi’s) goals.


Hidiyoshi was more successful because he used both men as mentor's. He found the strengths and weakness in both and blended the two and found the balance that made him a great leader, someone that the people under him admired and would do anything for.

One of the things that has always stood out in my mind is that Hidiyoshi ultimately succeeded where so many others, who were seemingly so much more qualified, had failed. I like to examine these historical anomalies or perturbations. I have a theory about this particular one:

I think Hidiyoshi succeeded where other failed because he used different methods. Nobunaga, like so many before him, attempted the unification (or take over?) of Japan through military means, i.e. force. On the other hand, Hidiyoshi was successful in many cases through diplomacy alone. Subsequently, he gained allies through his conquest rather than subjugated enemies.

You are so right-
He...
found the balance that made him a great leader, someone that the people under him admired and would do anything for.
I think there are two kinds of leaders:

1- The ones that you have to follow or else you get your noggin removed or you get put in the brig

2- The ones you follow because you admire them or want to go where they are leading.

Hidiyoshi seems to have been the 2nd kind where previous unifiers had all been the first.

Hidiyoshi seems to have known his Sun Tzu: The greatest victory isn’t attained by defeating your enemy’s troops on the battle field but by gaining victory without going to war.

There is a lot to learn from 15th-16th century Japan that is useful to us as martial artists.

There is a lot to learn from examination of the poem. I think it is like a kata that holds surface info with inner, more hidden stuff as well.

DLF
"The spirit is forged in the furnace of the will."
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
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