How big of a stickler should you be as a Sensei about the more traditional aspects inside the dojo-
Take for instance- a student that feels un comfortable with say....- bowing to the "picutres" of the Uechi's- (because of a religious conviction)-
Do you allow them to "not" bow- or do you enforce that to not bow is to show dis-respect in a manner that is un acceptible for the class-
Granted- this is an example- and it doesn't have anything to do with the actual techniques of the karate- right-
when is something like that - too dis-respectful? And when do you say something if it starts effecting other students and what they do- if they have similar religious convictions?
Do you say it's ok because it's a religious conviction? Or do you say that while you are in karate you should be "in karate" so to speak- do you say it's ok until they start convincing the other students not to bow?
And what if they do that?
Where is the line drawn inside the dojo betwen religion and possibly [i][b]perceived[/b][/i] conflicts with ceremonial tradition.....
Is that even a "thing" people worry about and deal with? Or do people just let things like that be handled by each dojo's senior Sensei?
Thoughts?
Thank you-
Kerry
Traditions Enforced?
Moderator: Available
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Harry Cook
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:25 pm
I think you need to explain the reasons for the particular aspect of etiquette under consideration.
For example if we look at the example of bowing to a photograph you would need to explain that bowing in this context has no religious dimension. It is a form of respect expressed in an oriental fashion and because karate is clearly rooted in the oreint we make use of some oriental outer forms. However this outer form means nothing without an inner conviction. If the student can display the same convinction in a different manner then make use of that. Of course it may simply be going through the motions for all concerned in which case it has no importance anyway.
I have a good friend who believes differently to me on this subject. He once had an islamic student who refused to bow at the beginning of the class for religious reasons, so he told him to go away and train somewhere else. His view was that if you come to do karate then you do everything, warts and all and if you cannot accept a certain aspect then go away. In some ways I have a certain sympathy for that approach.
Harry Cook
Harry Cook
For example if we look at the example of bowing to a photograph you would need to explain that bowing in this context has no religious dimension. It is a form of respect expressed in an oriental fashion and because karate is clearly rooted in the oreint we make use of some oriental outer forms. However this outer form means nothing without an inner conviction. If the student can display the same convinction in a different manner then make use of that. Of course it may simply be going through the motions for all concerned in which case it has no importance anyway.
I have a good friend who believes differently to me on this subject. He once had an islamic student who refused to bow at the beginning of the class for religious reasons, so he told him to go away and train somewhere else. His view was that if you come to do karate then you do everything, warts and all and if you cannot accept a certain aspect then go away. In some ways I have a certain sympathy for that approach.
Harry Cook
Harry Cook
It seems nowadays that everyone wants to "cherry-pick" all their leisure pursuits and skim off only what they "feel comfortable" with --leaving all the rest to the "die hards", I believe is the term.
If students are allowed to "cherry-pick" Uechi Ryu training, eliminating what they are "uncomfortable with", then what do they actually get?
I think it's safe to say that the more concessions a teacher makes, the more "generic" the teaching will be.
I'm a Christian, forbidden by my faith to bow to idols.
However, I also believe the Uechi bow is the Eastern equivalent of shaking hands,-- I am not "worshipping" Uechi's picture.
Therefore I bow out of respect with a clean conscience.
My take is that the bow is not required, but offered out of respect.
Perhaps those who feel they cannot bow could OFFER an alternate means of displaying respect. Ask them.
And finally: students come in knowing the rules. If it's not for you, don't burden the teacher with trying to make it so.
That's why there are free tryout classes. If it doesn't suit one, for whatever reason, move on. There are a lot more MA's out there.
If I were to wake up one day and decide I wanted to learn Shaolin Kung Fu, I would seek out the purest, least adulterated source of teaching, not some come-all school that twisted it to fit every fussy student.
NM
If students are allowed to "cherry-pick" Uechi Ryu training, eliminating what they are "uncomfortable with", then what do they actually get?
I think it's safe to say that the more concessions a teacher makes, the more "generic" the teaching will be.
I'm a Christian, forbidden by my faith to bow to idols.
However, I also believe the Uechi bow is the Eastern equivalent of shaking hands,-- I am not "worshipping" Uechi's picture.
Therefore I bow out of respect with a clean conscience.
My take is that the bow is not required, but offered out of respect.
Perhaps those who feel they cannot bow could OFFER an alternate means of displaying respect. Ask them.
And finally: students come in knowing the rules. If it's not for you, don't burden the teacher with trying to make it so.
That's why there are free tryout classes. If it doesn't suit one, for whatever reason, move on. There are a lot more MA's out there.
If I were to wake up one day and decide I wanted to learn Shaolin Kung Fu, I would seek out the purest, least adulterated source of teaching, not some come-all school that twisted it to fit every fussy student.
NM
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I'm not so sure this one is all that black and white.
With the specific example of bowing to pictures, I had more than a few students over the years who had trouble with it. And for those who say that the opening ceremony has no religious significance, well...guess again. The clapping is a Shinto religious tradition designed to wake up the spirits of the deceased.
I could go through several hundred students before I would run across one who had a problem with the pictures and the bowing. I would try to make the students understand, explaining it as "an Asian handshake" as was stated above. But truthfully speaking, that could only be said of two students bowing to each other, or student and teacher bowing together. Sigh...
Several decades ago, I dispensed with the pictures, and even with the concept of a shomen. You want tradition? I brought in my own. I took from the teaching tradition at Phillips Exeter Academy (my alma mater) where students learned at a round table. There was no seniority position for the teacher at the table, which was kind of cool except...that meant that each and every student in class was expected to share the responsibility of the momentum of teaching and learning in the class. So...that's what I do now. Everyone gets in a big circle, and we bow-clap-bow to the center. We still show respect for the elders by calling on them with the clapping, but there isn't a hint of anyone being worshipped.
At some point, an art needs to take on the culture in which it is taught. Certainly the generation of students after Kanbun chose not to pay 100% homage to the Chinese ways that he experienced while in Fuzhou. So why don't we similarly adjust to some traditions that are relevant to us?
Ultimately it is not Chou Tze Ho's class, or Kanbun's class, or Kanei's class, or anyone else's class but yours, Kerry. You set the traditions. You decide what makes sense to you, and to the people you work with. If you want to run it just like it's done in Futenma, well great. If you want to come in dressed in sweats and martial arts shoes and have folks call you coach, well great. Your martial arts will probably be just as effective so long as you have SOME kind of reasonable process.
And remember to teach your students that when in Rome...
- Bill
With the specific example of bowing to pictures, I had more than a few students over the years who had trouble with it. And for those who say that the opening ceremony has no religious significance, well...guess again. The clapping is a Shinto religious tradition designed to wake up the spirits of the deceased.
I could go through several hundred students before I would run across one who had a problem with the pictures and the bowing. I would try to make the students understand, explaining it as "an Asian handshake" as was stated above. But truthfully speaking, that could only be said of two students bowing to each other, or student and teacher bowing together. Sigh...
Several decades ago, I dispensed with the pictures, and even with the concept of a shomen. You want tradition? I brought in my own. I took from the teaching tradition at Phillips Exeter Academy (my alma mater) where students learned at a round table. There was no seniority position for the teacher at the table, which was kind of cool except...that meant that each and every student in class was expected to share the responsibility of the momentum of teaching and learning in the class. So...that's what I do now. Everyone gets in a big circle, and we bow-clap-bow to the center. We still show respect for the elders by calling on them with the clapping, but there isn't a hint of anyone being worshipped.
At some point, an art needs to take on the culture in which it is taught. Certainly the generation of students after Kanbun chose not to pay 100% homage to the Chinese ways that he experienced while in Fuzhou. So why don't we similarly adjust to some traditions that are relevant to us?
Ultimately it is not Chou Tze Ho's class, or Kanbun's class, or Kanei's class, or anyone else's class but yours, Kerry. You set the traditions. You decide what makes sense to you, and to the people you work with. If you want to run it just like it's done in Futenma, well great. If you want to come in dressed in sweats and martial arts shoes and have folks call you coach, well great. Your martial arts will probably be just as effective so long as you have SOME kind of reasonable process.
And remember to teach your students that when in Rome...
- Bill
:)
Well the "actual" issue is the clapping-
I used the bowing as an example to use-
but we do it at the end :) though since it is called the awakening I've ben asking why we do it at the end :)
What about that part- that part actualy is a religious thing?
Did they also do it in Okinawa as well? Does everyone do that part too as part of the "tradition" in class?
Mr. Glasheen Sensei- your posts to my questions are always so nice and helpful- (not to the exclusion of others- but you really speak english to me- and I appreciate that a great deal :) )
Thank you guys- for all the insights here- I can certainly understand both aspects/ positions- which is why I was curious to other people's views too :)
Kerry
Well the "actual" issue is the clapping-
I used the bowing as an example to use-
but we do it at the end :) though since it is called the awakening I've ben asking why we do it at the end :)
What about that part- that part actualy is a religious thing?
Did they also do it in Okinawa as well? Does everyone do that part too as part of the "tradition" in class?
Mr. Glasheen Sensei- your posts to my questions are always so nice and helpful- (not to the exclusion of others- but you really speak english to me- and I appreciate that a great deal :) )
Thank you guys- for all the insights here- I can certainly understand both aspects/ positions- which is why I was curious to other people's views too :)
Kerry
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
It's my pleasure, Kerry. Truth be told, I found Harry and 2Green's points of view interesting. Both are right on, and they show unique perspectives on the issue.
The clapping isn't really part of worshipping an idol or anything. Even bowing to the pictures doesn't violate the Christian command not to bow before false idols. Ninety-nine percent of Christians get that. But there is always this one percent of Christian literalists who see the bow towards pictures as an act of worship. You can go through the logic dance with them and maybe they eventually will get it. Or maybe not... Bottom line though is that it bothers them, and you need to respect people's religious convictions and principles even if you don't share their perspectives. Thanks to Mr. Jefferson and his bill on religious freedom, we just do things differently in this country. Treading on the religion thing always is fraught with issues.
The clapping represents a request for someone's attention. If you were to go to the grave of your grandmother and pay your respects, you would sit in seiza, and clap several times before you bow. Why? It's kind of like saying Ahem... or I beg your pardon. Heck, we can't see the spirits of dead people. For all we know, granny might be preoccupied chit-chatting with a hottie she met down the row in the graveyard. It would be silly of us to be sitting there showing our respects when she was otherwise preoccupied, no?
Yes, we do it at the beginning of the workout to call on them to come watch over us. We clap at the end I suppose to let them know we want to thank them for the great workout we just had. It works for me, I guess. I didn't major in spirit talk in college.
Whenever I explain any of this to people, I tell them it is ceremony and ritual, and not really a literal thing any more. We do lots of superstitious things in our culture without thought. Whenever someone sneezes, we bless them. Why? Before the advent of the germ theory of medicine, we thought people got sick whenever they opened their mouths wide, and let the evil spirits in. Blessing them was a attempt to ward off future illness. But considering they probably did brush and floss their teeth back then, I suppose the act of opening wide was always fraught with issues...
It's worth doing a little reading on the subject to understand these traditions. While it's great to do things "our way", I think it's also useful to understand other traditions and beliefs. That notion is just as relevant today as it ever was.
- Bill
The clapping isn't really part of worshipping an idol or anything. Even bowing to the pictures doesn't violate the Christian command not to bow before false idols. Ninety-nine percent of Christians get that. But there is always this one percent of Christian literalists who see the bow towards pictures as an act of worship. You can go through the logic dance with them and maybe they eventually will get it. Or maybe not... Bottom line though is that it bothers them, and you need to respect people's religious convictions and principles even if you don't share their perspectives. Thanks to Mr. Jefferson and his bill on religious freedom, we just do things differently in this country. Treading on the religion thing always is fraught with issues.
The clapping represents a request for someone's attention. If you were to go to the grave of your grandmother and pay your respects, you would sit in seiza, and clap several times before you bow. Why? It's kind of like saying Ahem... or I beg your pardon. Heck, we can't see the spirits of dead people. For all we know, granny might be preoccupied chit-chatting with a hottie she met down the row in the graveyard. It would be silly of us to be sitting there showing our respects when she was otherwise preoccupied, no?
Yes, we do it at the beginning of the workout to call on them to come watch over us. We clap at the end I suppose to let them know we want to thank them for the great workout we just had. It works for me, I guess. I didn't major in spirit talk in college.
Whenever I explain any of this to people, I tell them it is ceremony and ritual, and not really a literal thing any more. We do lots of superstitious things in our culture without thought. Whenever someone sneezes, we bless them. Why? Before the advent of the germ theory of medicine, we thought people got sick whenever they opened their mouths wide, and let the evil spirits in. Blessing them was a attempt to ward off future illness. But considering they probably did brush and floss their teeth back then, I suppose the act of opening wide was always fraught with issues...
It's worth doing a little reading on the subject to understand these traditions. While it's great to do things "our way", I think it's also useful to understand other traditions and beliefs. That notion is just as relevant today as it ever was.
- Bill
This is my first post on the Uechi Forum, but here's my $.02
It's what you make of it. I think most of us regard bowing mostly as a sign of respect and leave it at that.
I've had people refuse to bow and clap at the end of class. It's worth saying that these people had deep religious reasons, and just returned from a three year tour in Japan. They were well aware of the implications of the ritual. The fact is, it is a ritual, and like all rituals, it's what you make of it. Like kata, it can be potent and meaningful, or it can be a mere series of "dance like movements". If it's deep and spiritual for you, then it's deep and spiritual.
I allow those people to remain in seiza to relax, meditate, and reflect while the rest of us exercise our right to pagan worship. For me, it's a call to reflect on what I learned or somemtimes just clear the mind and BREATH.
Brant Christianson
http://homepage.mac.com/bc64
It's what you make of it. I think most of us regard bowing mostly as a sign of respect and leave it at that.
I've had people refuse to bow and clap at the end of class. It's worth saying that these people had deep religious reasons, and just returned from a three year tour in Japan. They were well aware of the implications of the ritual. The fact is, it is a ritual, and like all rituals, it's what you make of it. Like kata, it can be potent and meaningful, or it can be a mere series of "dance like movements". If it's deep and spiritual for you, then it's deep and spiritual.
I allow those people to remain in seiza to relax, meditate, and reflect while the rest of us exercise our right to pagan worship. For me, it's a call to reflect on what I learned or somemtimes just clear the mind and BREATH.
Brant Christianson
http://homepage.mac.com/bc64
Thank you so very much for all the views and perspectives!
Brant; I think it's wonderful you chose this topic to make your first post in so welcome welcome to you! This is a really wonderful place to be able to ask questions and get all kinds of excellent info and perspectives! :)
For me- it's extremely important to "not" infrindge on whatever convictions a person might have- religious or not...
Any thoughts on a student talking to other people about how they feel- resulting in the other people joining in? Whether same religious conviction or whether not?
Anyone ever have another student ask why the one student isn't participating?
Completely appreciate the insights here!
Blessed Be!
Kerry
Brant; I think it's wonderful you chose this topic to make your first post in so welcome welcome to you! This is a really wonderful place to be able to ask questions and get all kinds of excellent info and perspectives! :)
For me- it's extremely important to "not" infrindge on whatever convictions a person might have- religious or not...
Any thoughts on a student talking to other people about how they feel- resulting in the other people joining in? Whether same religious conviction or whether not?
Anyone ever have another student ask why the one student isn't participating?
Completely appreciate the insights here!
Blessed Be!
Kerry
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Others have walked in your path, Kerry. Some teachers handle it well, and some don't.
One of the most talented martial artists I ever had the pleasure of working with for an extended period of time was in the middle of such a controversy. Steve King was (and still is) an enigmatic character. He started as a child with Judo. Then he studied Kyokushinkai Ryu for a bit. Then he studied Goju Ryu first with Gosei Yamaguchi, and then with Kimo Wall. And there were excursions into kobudo, aikido, taiquondo, etc., etc.
At some point in the middle of his youth, he signed up with the military. Dr. King is one of that 10 to 15 percent that Grossman classifies as having no problem killing someone in battle. Most of us are not up to it, and it takes operant conditioning to teach us to kill in an intimate range. And then we suffer from PTSD later on for the atrocities we witnessed and sometimes caused. But not this minority. They can be sent off to kill someone (for their country) and they will just do it. No problem. No after-effects. These folks make perfect candidates for special forces, and not suprisingly enough, Dr. King ended up as a Green Beret. He even taught martial arts to others in his unit.
When it comes time for these folks to integrate back into society, there can be issues. Before I understood the psychology of it all, I had a saying about such people that wasn't far from the truth. I used to say that these graduates of special forces services either ended up in prison, or found Jesus. My friend and former instructor ended up becoming a super-devout Seventh Day Adventist. Why? It's an adjustment that worked for him. He found a path to peaceful living in a civilized society, and he went by the book - literally. You and I have a sense of what is right and what is wrong. For someone who doesn't have the same deck of cards to play with, they live by a code that they trust.
And this brings me to the controversy he faced. Here he was later in his life enjoying martial training with a well-known instructor. This instructor INSISTED that he do this particular bowing ritual. My friend couldn't do it, because his religion taught him not to bow before false idols. You and I can reason our way through this because we understand intent and principle. Dr. King went by the book, and that's what the book said. Literally. Period. Push came to shove, and a student-teacher relationship was destroyed. It's a shame...
Today I know both these individuals (student and teacher) and I respect them both. Each did what they thought was right. And you, Kerry, need to do what you think is right.
I firmly believe that rituals are important in martial arts. When it gets down to it, we are in the business of teaching people how to maim and kill. This is serious business. Death is not to be taken lightly, and cultures develop rituals with that thought in mind.
You need rituals in your dojo, Kerry. Think through what you want done in your dojo, and why it is important to do it. Think through the implications of each and every act in these rituals. Know what you are doing, and the value of it. Communicate that to your students on a regular basis the same way that you work with them on doing proper circles and thrusts. It's ALL important.
And then just as a circle is just a circle and not necessarily a block, so too is a ritual nothing more than a ritual. We adapt our circles to our partner in our fighting. So too will you occasionally need to adapt your rituals to the people you work with - particularly if you cross-train or go outside your immediate circle of Uechi schools.
So let's assume you have a few people who have problems with claps and bows. Fine... Then I suggest one of two options. Either state that rituals are important to martial arts and these are YOUR rituals (with good explanations as to what they mean and why you do them) or come up with an alternative set of rituals for these individuals to do while others in the dojo do "the mainstream stuff." Neither situation is going to be perfect; there will be issues. Just decide beforehand what you are going to do, and communicate your wishes to everyone. And then let the chips fall where they may.
And if that doesn't work, well then remember that you are a woman. Changing your mind is your God-given right!
- Bill
One of the most talented martial artists I ever had the pleasure of working with for an extended period of time was in the middle of such a controversy. Steve King was (and still is) an enigmatic character. He started as a child with Judo. Then he studied Kyokushinkai Ryu for a bit. Then he studied Goju Ryu first with Gosei Yamaguchi, and then with Kimo Wall. And there were excursions into kobudo, aikido, taiquondo, etc., etc.
At some point in the middle of his youth, he signed up with the military. Dr. King is one of that 10 to 15 percent that Grossman classifies as having no problem killing someone in battle. Most of us are not up to it, and it takes operant conditioning to teach us to kill in an intimate range. And then we suffer from PTSD later on for the atrocities we witnessed and sometimes caused. But not this minority. They can be sent off to kill someone (for their country) and they will just do it. No problem. No after-effects. These folks make perfect candidates for special forces, and not suprisingly enough, Dr. King ended up as a Green Beret. He even taught martial arts to others in his unit.
When it comes time for these folks to integrate back into society, there can be issues. Before I understood the psychology of it all, I had a saying about such people that wasn't far from the truth. I used to say that these graduates of special forces services either ended up in prison, or found Jesus. My friend and former instructor ended up becoming a super-devout Seventh Day Adventist. Why? It's an adjustment that worked for him. He found a path to peaceful living in a civilized society, and he went by the book - literally. You and I have a sense of what is right and what is wrong. For someone who doesn't have the same deck of cards to play with, they live by a code that they trust.
And this brings me to the controversy he faced. Here he was later in his life enjoying martial training with a well-known instructor. This instructor INSISTED that he do this particular bowing ritual. My friend couldn't do it, because his religion taught him not to bow before false idols. You and I can reason our way through this because we understand intent and principle. Dr. King went by the book, and that's what the book said. Literally. Period. Push came to shove, and a student-teacher relationship was destroyed. It's a shame...
Today I know both these individuals (student and teacher) and I respect them both. Each did what they thought was right. And you, Kerry, need to do what you think is right.
I firmly believe that rituals are important in martial arts. When it gets down to it, we are in the business of teaching people how to maim and kill. This is serious business. Death is not to be taken lightly, and cultures develop rituals with that thought in mind.
You need rituals in your dojo, Kerry. Think through what you want done in your dojo, and why it is important to do it. Think through the implications of each and every act in these rituals. Know what you are doing, and the value of it. Communicate that to your students on a regular basis the same way that you work with them on doing proper circles and thrusts. It's ALL important.
And then just as a circle is just a circle and not necessarily a block, so too is a ritual nothing more than a ritual. We adapt our circles to our partner in our fighting. So too will you occasionally need to adapt your rituals to the people you work with - particularly if you cross-train or go outside your immediate circle of Uechi schools.
So let's assume you have a few people who have problems with claps and bows. Fine... Then I suggest one of two options. Either state that rituals are important to martial arts and these are YOUR rituals (with good explanations as to what they mean and why you do them) or come up with an alternative set of rituals for these individuals to do while others in the dojo do "the mainstream stuff." Neither situation is going to be perfect; there will be issues. Just decide beforehand what you are going to do, and communicate your wishes to everyone. And then let the chips fall where they may.
And if that doesn't work, well then remember that you are a woman. Changing your mind is your God-given right!
- Bill
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Hey Brant,
Welcome - good to see you here.
What I find really entertaining is when people face the front to bow and clap when there are no pictures at the front.
I guess they're waking up the dust bunnies. 
There are quite a lot of Buddhist traditions in empty-handed Soutern Asian arts - the significance of many of them are missed if they are unknown.
For example the neutral stance at the beginning of a form before the bow is the traditional "empty mind" stance or Wu Wei in the Taoist traditions.
Recently I read a story that some parents had protested to a school board again teachers teaching deep breathing methods to students as a relaxation technique before standardized tests because "breathing is Buddhist" and their children were Christian.
I honor their right to protest but I think they're missing the spirit of the law for the letter of the law.
Ancestor worship is a pretty foreign concept to most Americans - so I can understand why it would not be a welcome practice. However if it is an important tradition to your school and your training you must ask yourself if it is more important to you to maintain your own traditions or to make accomodations for a student.
Welcome - good to see you here.
What I find really entertaining is when people face the front to bow and clap when there are no pictures at the front.
I guess they're waking up the dust bunnies. There are quite a lot of Buddhist traditions in empty-handed Soutern Asian arts - the significance of many of them are missed if they are unknown.
For example the neutral stance at the beginning of a form before the bow is the traditional "empty mind" stance or Wu Wei in the Taoist traditions.
Recently I read a story that some parents had protested to a school board again teachers teaching deep breathing methods to students as a relaxation technique before standardized tests because "breathing is Buddhist" and their children were Christian.
I honor their right to protest but I think they're missing the spirit of the law for the letter of the law.
Ancestor worship is a pretty foreign concept to most Americans - so I can understand why it would not be a welcome practice. However if it is an important tradition to your school and your training you must ask yourself if it is more important to you to maintain your own traditions or to make accomodations for a student.
Did you show compassion today?
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Thank you again. I do think this is an important issue and while I want to respect my students.......
I can't help but feel they should also respect those who perfected the art they are learning in the first place.... So it's a real conflict for me.
Which is beautiful when you think of it in terms of Sanchin.
That is one of the tools we use when we face a technique problem- or any problem in class.
"Where does "this" fit in Sanchin....." And the answer is always found!!!
So if we apply this conflict- to Sanchin....
It would be a "spirit as well as mind" conflict .... so it addresses at least two of the pieces...
I suspect the answer will result in a physical application of the answer. The answer being....an application of each student's "spirit" filtered through the mind maybe...... The mind may perceive something that the spirit wants to do, but because of our own "convictions" it creates a conflict...
Quite interesting when thought about like that hmm? That's what I've been thinking thus far in my study anyway- so your thoughts are so very helpful as well.
Thank you again!!!
Pm ed back Dana!!!!!
Kerry
I can't help but feel they should also respect those who perfected the art they are learning in the first place.... So it's a real conflict for me.
Which is beautiful when you think of it in terms of Sanchin.
That is one of the tools we use when we face a technique problem- or any problem in class.
"Where does "this" fit in Sanchin....." And the answer is always found!!!
So if we apply this conflict- to Sanchin....
It would be a "spirit as well as mind" conflict .... so it addresses at least two of the pieces...
I suspect the answer will result in a physical application of the answer. The answer being....an application of each student's "spirit" filtered through the mind maybe...... The mind may perceive something that the spirit wants to do, but because of our own "convictions" it creates a conflict...
Quite interesting when thought about like that hmm? That's what I've been thinking thus far in my study anyway- so your thoughts are so very helpful as well.
Thank you again!!!
Pm ed back Dana!!!!!
Kerry
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Joe Graziano
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Milford, MA, US
[Quote]
I honor their right to protest but I think they're missing the spirit of the law for the letter of the law.
Ancestor worship is a pretty foreign concept to most Americans - so I can understand why it would not be a welcome practice. However if it is an important tradition to your school and your training you must ask yourself if it is more important to you to maintain your own traditions or to make accomodations for a student.
[End Quote]
You nailed it Dana!
I honor their right to protest but I think they're missing the spirit of the law for the letter of the law.
Ancestor worship is a pretty foreign concept to most Americans - so I can understand why it would not be a welcome practice. However if it is an important tradition to your school and your training you must ask yourself if it is more important to you to maintain your own traditions or to make accomodations for a student.
[End Quote]
You nailed it Dana!
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Jim Robinson
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:34 am
Personally ,I have never had a problem with the bowing or clapping nor have I ever had a student complain.
My nephew operates a new dojang in Illinois and from time to time asks for my input. He had a youngster who told him that bowing was stupid and had no purpose . The youngster continued to do his own thing so I told my nephew to dismiss the student.
Jim Robinson
My nephew operates a new dojang in Illinois and from time to time asks for my input. He had a youngster who told him that bowing was stupid and had no purpose . The youngster continued to do his own thing so I told my nephew to dismiss the student.
Jim Robinson
Kerry,
Concerning students talking to other students about their belief for not clapping or bowing. We are a very small dojo and we all discussed it after class. Most of us don't have a problem with it, so it wasn't a big deal. I suppose if this particular student was attempting to start a mass boycott on bowing and clapping things would be different.
Brant
Concerning students talking to other students about their belief for not clapping or bowing. We are a very small dojo and we all discussed it after class. Most of us don't have a problem with it, so it wasn't a big deal. I suppose if this particular student was attempting to start a mass boycott on bowing and clapping things would be different.
Brant
