Where do you go for product information?

[Valkenar]

I like to consider myself a fairly well-informed consumer. Prior to almost every purchase I do quite a bit of research about the available options, both for price and quality. But alas I've been stymied in my efforts to make what I had thought would be a simple decision: choice of mosquito repellent.

Since I'll soon be hiking around in the Amazon, I need a mosquito repellent that is both safe and effective. I won't go into the details of the issue*, but basically I've run into the problem that there isn't much data available. The manufacturers just want to deliver marketing bs about how great their product is, which I expect, but my usual sources (consumer reports, user reviews, technical specifics) are coming up a bit short. So I'm curiopus, does anyone else have this problem? When you need something and just any old thing won't do, where do you go for information about the options?

*Okay, I lied, I'll go into it here. Here ends the (questionably) interesting part of this post. If you don't care about mosquito repellents you will probably find the rest of this post hazardously boring.

What I've learned is there are basically two chemicals that are considered at viable as insect repellents. DET is one, and the other is called Icaridin, Picaridin, BayRepel or KBR3023 depending on the source. Deet is popular, has been in use for 40 and is considered effective, particularly in fairly high concentrations. But it has a few problems. One is that it is a plastic solvent. Words cannot convey how much I look forward to disolving my camera, my nylon backpack, my sunglasses and who knows what else while on a trip.

The other problem is that there seems to be some question as to its safety, despite its 40 years of use. But this is one of respects in which I've had trouble getting a straight answer. There are plenty of safety warnings for its use, such as avoiding prolonged exposure (great, thanks, I'll just stop wearing it and get malaria instead)to do when you're hiking in the jungle for days) and appying in minimal amounts. There also seems to be some question of whether it causes neurological effects such as seizures. Wonderful.

That other chemical, (which I'll just refer to as Picaridin) has recently been approved in the US for use as an insect repellent and isn't a plastic solvent. The CDC recommends it alongside DEET, though most things tend to talk about DEET more than Picaridin. Whether that's an affect of the recency of Picaradin's approval or doubts as to its effectiveness I'm not sure. There definitely seems to be mixed opinions on whether Picaradin works as well as DEET. One confounding factor is that in the US concentrations of Picaradin are limitted to 8% or so, whereas deet goes up to 30% in typical products. However, it's possible to get concentrations of 20% Picaradin in Europe, which would naturally be more effective. As to the safety of Picaridin, well, it's hard to find much of anything, probably because it's new.

So what to do, what to do? Buy some 30% deet and find some safe way to handle gear? Buy Picaradin locally and hope that it's strong enough to work? Or buy Picaradin overseas and hope it doesn't have some unforseen health repercussions? I'd make a fashion statement by swaddling myself from head to toe in tightly woven, mosquito-proof fabric, but in 90 degree, 99% humidity conditions I think I'd rather just feed myself to piranhas.

[Bill Glasheen]

Justin

It sounds to me like you're asking all the right questions. There is no simple answer.

No product is perfectly safe. Every "drug" or in this case "toxin" has some undesired effect. Some of them are short-term and can be quantified pretty quickly. Others are rare and/or longer term.

DEET has years and years of use in its favor. This is the devil we know. The biggest caution with DEET is in using it on children. All these chemicals have neurotoxic effects; it's what makes them work. The real question is to what degree they affect the bugs, and not affect you.

Part of your issue obviously is your equipment. If you were a National Geographic photographer, you wouldn't be buying those cheap plastic cameras with the cheap, plastic lenses. These days they're making them all more plastic and more cheap so that really good picture-capturing ability can make it to the consumer level. But the pros buy the good stuff. I was happy that Nikon finally came out with a "prosumer" digital camera (the D200) that had a magnesium alloy rather than plastic body. Finally... I don't have to spend close to $5K to get a camera that I can bang around. (Makes me want to go back to the days of the old Nikon FM.)

A good photographer will consider conditions when considering equipment. If you're going to be spending lots of time in the Amazon, you aren't the typical user. If you don't want to go digital, you could always borrow some simple but hard-core film equipment. Otherwise, you're getting what you pay for. You will put equipment at risk in this environment (temperature, moisture, chemicals, etc.) and you may pay the consequences of you go cheap and bad things happen. C'est la vie. To a professional photographer, this is just a business expense.

Sunglasses? Perfectly functional plastic sunglasses can be had for $10 or less. And you can get metal-framed ones with glass lenses for a price.

Back to neurotoxins... You're on the leading edge, Justin. You're going to take a risk with a newer product. Are the newer features (benefit) worth the unknown risks (cost)? It's a decision only you can make. We won't know for another decade how "safe" this new product is compared to the gold standard DEET. You and millions of others will be the guinea pigs.

- Bill

[Rob Kolenc]

Ahhh grasshopper! Finally I can help someone back! First of all your mosquito problem...

http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.as ... 2407,33240

Problem solved. Fashionable, no?

In the Great White North, I have found very high concentrations of DEET to be truly effective. Its still somewhat effective if you put a lot of it on your hat, bandana tied around your neck, clothing around wrists, ankles etc...but not as good as DEET on skin, no way. And I haven't had any neurological effeeeeecccccctsssss at all (just don't look at my other recent thread):lol:

For great information, you're doing the right thing I'd say. After Consumer reports and googling a few obvious references, plug into networks of knowledgeable people.
This place is great for karate, and I have learned tons of ecclectic stuff about motorbikes (my passion) at bike forums like Adventure Rider or ST-Owners.com. There's a good user's group for just about anything. You might want to plug into a fishing, hunting or adventure hiking user's group and get more specifics on products there.

Cheers!
Rob

[Valkenar]

Justin
No product is perfectly safe. Every "drug" or in this case "toxin" has some undesired effect. Some of them are short-term and can be quantified pretty quickly. Others are rare and/or longer term.

Yeah, I know that there's going to be benefits and drawbacks. I also know that chances are I'll be safe with whatever product (it's only 10 days after all, not 3 months). But on the flipside I think the safety parameters of products gets played down to the point of absurdity sometimes.

Part of your issue obviously is your equipment. If you were a National Geographic photographer, you wouldn't be buying those cheap plastic cameras with the cheap, plastic lenses.

Well, I'm no pro, but what I'm bringing is a EOS-20D along with a 24-70 2.8L, 70-200 2.8L and a sigma 150 2.8 macro. These are mostly metal, and are pretty-well weather-sealed. But there is still plenty of plastic and rubber on them. On the lenses, the focusing/zoom rings are rubber, and the af/mf switches are plastic. The handgrip on the camera is rubber and the buttons are plastic. The Konica-Minolta Z2 my girlfriend will be using is is plasticy. More importantly, the electronic gear needs to be stored in plastic bags with silica gel packets to curtail fungus growth. If the DEET punches a few holes in that plastic then the benefit of them is lost. Not an insurmountable problem, but worth considering.

Sunglasses? Perfectly functional plastic sunglasses can be had for $10 or less.

Which is exactly what I have. Still, the difference DEET makes is that instead of an oily smudge on the lens I can wipe off in a moment, a thumbprint actually becomes etched in the lens.

You and millions of others will be the guinea pigs.

Well, we'll see.

Problem solved. Fashionable, no?

Yeah, I liked that idea. In fact, I bought a few yards of mosquito netting and was going to try sewing up a suit like that myself. Unfortunately I have basically no experience sewing clothes, so we'll see how that goes. I was going to get a bottle of permethrin to soak them in. I was, in my decision-making process weighing the risk wearing no insect repellant and just relying on the bug screen clothing.

In the Great White North, I have found very high concentrations of DEET to be truly effective.

That's what makes the decisions difficult. If only DEET were less effective I could discard it out of hand.

[RACastanet]

I've been using DEET for about 20 years. As a fisherman I have used the stuff from Alaska to South Carolina. Alaska is where I needed it the most.

Whan training in the back woods of Quantico we use liberal amounts of DEET to ward off the deer tics. They are everywhere and get into everything. Works well. The stuff is issued in large olive drab cans to go with the motif. It gets sprayed liberally on everything.

When weighing the risks of Lyme disease, malaria, encephalitis etc the risk from DEET seems reasonable.

I have never had a problem with DEET destroying any plastic objects. When in nasty environments I generally bring inexpensive cameras along so I won't feel bad if I drop, smash, lose them or whatever. The plastic body cameras I took to Alaska in 1989 and God knows where else since then were well contaminated with DEET and they are still here today.

Rich

[gmattson]

Remember spending a night in New Hampshire camp many, many years ago with a girl friend. She fell asleep with her naked back touching mosquito netting. Next morning, her back was a covered with bites. Apparently the netting only works when not touching body!

[Valkenar]

I've been using DEET for about 20 years. As a fisherman I have used the stuff from Alaska to South Carolina. Alaska is where I needed it the most.

What strength do you typically use? My biggest concern with DEET, besides the plastic issue, is that I won't be using it as directed. For one thing, they say you should wash it off after the day, but how does that apply when you're out hiking and camping for 10 days? There will be some bathing and such, but I'm not anticipating that hygiene will be up to a civilized norm. I also will probably be using it for a more extended and consistant period than recommended use indicates.

Whan training in the back woods of Quantico we use liberal amounts of DEET to ward off the deer tics.

This sort of thing is why I say that I'll probably be fine, despite my concerns. On the other hand, the military's priorities are such that they have historically been more cavalier about soldiers' exposure to toxins than I would care to be.

[RACastanet]

On the other hand, the military's priorities are such that they have historically been more cavalier about soldiers' exposure to toxins than I would care to be.

Justin: I believe you should not take a chance with exposure to toxins and be a guinee pig for DEET or whatever. Be tough and just put up with the biting and stinging insects. A little malaria will toughen you up.

Rich

[Valkenar]

Justin: I believe you should not take a chance with exposure to toxins and be a guinee pig for DEET or whatever. Be tough and just put up with the biting and stinging insects. A little malaria will toughen you up.

Heh, well that is one way to look at it. Personally I've got my fingers crossed hoping for a nice bout of hemorhagic dengue fever. I hear that's what all the real men survive these days.

[RACastanet]

That's the spirit.

Personally I believe you are overthinking this. Use a little DEET on your hands and face, wear light colored long sleeved shirts and trousers and keep the collar and sleeves buttoned.

Now, here is my environmentally safe and effective method of keeping the mosquitos away...

Eat a lot of garlic. Dry roast enough garlic so you have a complete clove to eat each day. Start eating it as soon as you arrive and munch it continuously. This really works. However, and this is no joke, you will take on the aroma of garlic. That is how it works. I do not know if it works against other creepy crawlies but it repels the mosquitos.

If all of the members of your group do this none of you will notice the other's aroma. However, if only you do it your travel partner may also stay at a distance.

Try it in advance to see if you like it. Start slowly now and you will acquire a taste for the stuff. I like garlic myself.

Rich

[Rob Kolenc]

RACastanet, your advice stinks!

[MikeK]

Justin,
Why bother with all the worry when there is this very nice trip to the jungle that I've done many times.

[Valkenar]

Try it in advance to see if you like it. Start slowly now and you will acquire a taste for the stuff. I like garlic myself.

Hm, interesting idea, thanks. I am already a pretty big fan of garlic, though right now I'd need at least a little bread to spread the roasted garlic on.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mosquitoes have almost no olfactory powers whatsoever--they have, in fact, a very selective and narrow olfactory "spectrum". But this is actually irrelevant; you see, the way a mosquito "repellent" works is NOT by being detected and driving insects away, but by blocking their ability to smell things that otherwise would attract them, so they ignore you. (In the same way, household "deodorizers" don't actually eliminate odors, but merely block your ability to smell them.) In the case of mosquitoes, the primary attractants that have been identified are CO2 and lactic acid, though there are other factors. The best substance yet found to block mosquitoes' powers of detection is DEET, and while a few repellents are equal over a short term, nothing even comes close in terms of residual repellency; DEET's effects can last for several hours, whereas even the best alternative repellents last at most about 2 hours, maybe 3, if you're lucky and the conditions are right. Garlic is only one of a list of plant compounds with similar "repellent" effects, including citronella, cedar, verbena, geranium, lavender, pine, cinnamon, rosemary, basil, thyme, allspice, and peppermint. But again, these substances have a very limited efficacy, in terms of duration, and if you are going to be exposed to mosquitoes for more than an hour or two, you should get a good DEET-based spray or lotion and stick with it. Products with 10% to 35% DEET should be fine under most conditions, and anything over 50% is overkill, except in unusual circumstances in which insect biting pressures are truly intense, or under conditions of very high temperature and humidity (e.g., working in a tropical jungle - and I know this from first-hand experience!). Repellents with DEET may damage plastics (such as watch faces, eyeglasses and frames), spandex, leather, and painted surfaces, but don't damage natural fibers (cotton or wool) or nylon. Most importantly, there is no genuine evidence that DEET is toxic; what evidence exists is largely anecdotal or without adequate experimental control, and about the most one can say is that one should be cautious about applying large doses routinely, especially to very young children.

So, forget the garlic, and go with the DEET. While using a "natural" repellent wouldn't rank as falling prey to an "old wives' tale", there's little reason to use something of such limited efficacy when better repellents are easy to find and cheap.

--SDSTAFF Doug
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board

- Straight Dope

[Bill Glasheen]

Colorado State University Cooperative Extension
SafeFood Rapid Response Network


SAFEFOOD NEWS - Fall 2003 - Vol 8 No. 1

Garlic for Mosquitoes?

Garlic, a common staple found in countless kitchens and recipes worldwide, long has been considered a special food - not just for the unique flavor it imparts, but also for its medicinal value. Most of its therapeutic value, as well as its flavor and odor, can be attributed to sulfur compounds contained within the garlic clove. In recent years, garlic has been widely studied for its role in promoting health. There is good evidence that garlic possesses antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal, antiprotozoan and even insect-repellent properties.

Given the recent surge of the West Nile virus spread by infected mosquitoes, it is interesting to explore the value of garlic as one more method for avoiding mosquito bites. A number of studies have shown that the oil fraction of garlic destroys certain species of mosquito larvae. Garlic sprays (made primarily with garlic extract) are available on the market for use on plants as an alternative botanical pesticide to chemical pesticides. The sulfurs contained within the garlic extract have been shown to be effective against a wide range of insects, including mosquitoes, and the lingering odor can deter mosquitoes from the area for weeks.

It is thought that garlic may be an alternative mosquito repellent for humans as well. In a field study conducted in India, a preparation made of 1 percent garlic oil, petroleum jelly and beeswax that was rubbed on the arms and legs of study subjects was found to be effective in preventing mosquito bites for up to eight hours.

In addition, there is some evidence that heavy consumption of garlic through supplements or well-flavored foods may help ward off mosquitoes. When garlic is eaten and its components are metabolized, compounds are released from the body through the skin and the breath. Although they may not be detectable by others (or may, in the case of garlic breath!), mosquitoes use smell to locate a host. For example, carbon dioxide and lactic acid released from the breath of humans are two known mosquito attractants that can be detected within 40 yards. While it has not been proven through clinical studies, it is thought that the sulfur compounds present on the skin and in the breath after eating garlic may help ward off those pesky mosquitoes.

Before deciding to use garlic supplements, it's best to consult with your health care provider. For example, garlic supplements are not recommended for pregnant or lactating women, for persons on blood thinning medications, for those going into surgery or for those on certain medications such as the anti-HIV drug Saquinavir.

The bottom line: Mosquito repellents containing DEET are still your best bet for avoiding mosquitoes - but a little garlic breath may also be a good thing.

Source:
Amonkar, S.V., Reeves, E.L. Mosquito Control with Active Principle of Garlic, Allium sativum. Journal of Economic Entomology. 63(4): 1172-1175, 1970
Bhuyan, M. Saxena, B.N., Rao, K.M. Repellent Property of Oil Fraction of Garlic, Allium sativum Linn. Indian Journal of Experimental Biology. 12: 575-576, 1974
Fradin, M.S. Mosquitoes and Mosquito Repellents: A Clinician's Guide. Annals of Internal Medicine, 128: 931-940, 1998
HDRA- The Organic Organisation. Natural Pesticides No. TNP3: Garlic, Allium sativum. Last updated June, 2000.

- Colorado State University Cooperative Extension