Bias keeps people out of the dojo

[Dana Sheets]

I'm working on a project right now that is looking at how biased opinions are formed and passed on.

An overwhelming majority of humans give more weight to their own personal experiences or the experiences of a close friend over proven research and fact. I'm sure that for a very long time this helped us stay alive and be successful.

However today, particularly in a dojo environement, I think it can be devasting.
Bias is really a pre-supposition based on judgements informed by impressions and individual experiences.

One bias I have encounted in the dojo is that women can't do hard conditioning.
Women can indeed do hard conditioning - and women are not men. So while men benefit from their testosterone and can condition more quickly and with fewer repetitions than women. Women, because of the presence of estrogen, can condition - it just takes longer - sometimes twice a long. I have also found that women must be more consistent in their conditioning or it doesn't hold as long as it does for most men.

In the dojo that might mean that two students who join on the same day, one male and one female, could be perceived to be progressing at different rates and the male student could be perceived as a "better" student because he has conditioned more quickly. The perception of "better" is bias.

Another bias is that a person who is overweight or obese is not be a good student because they are often dropping out of exercises, throwing lower kicks, skipping more classes. However that individual may be making great personal strides in their health, well-being, and fighting ability. Doesn't their progress make them a good student even if they haven't gained mastery of certain skills?

I said in my seminar at camp that if you want to run a school to make the toughest fighters ever - that is great and I wish you much success. However I think if that is the kind of school you want then you should be very clear about explaining that to prospective students when people explore your school.

If you are running a school and want a range of people to participate in your classes then you have the challenge of being opening minded and unbiased towards who is a "good student" and who is not.

My teacher has said that one of the most difficult things is to be consistent. As teachers and senior students in the dojo I think it is up to us to keep in mind that our personal biases and prejudices may be inadvertently helping to push people out of the dojo.

I'm doing a program right now for teachers about differentiated instruction. In that philosophy there is a suggestion to change assessment practices so there are two grades - one for mastery of baseline state standards content and one for personal improvement w.r.t. gained knowledge and skill.

So a student might receice a "c" in their baseline mastery rating because they have managed to learn about 70% of what is needed for a certain standard - however they can also receive an "a" as a measure of their personal improvement.

It goes back to something an Okinawan master by the name of Uechi Kanei once said..."Train all who come..."

[chef]

Another bias I have seen is that seniors are not worth the time to develop those younger 'whipper snappers'. My best students I help instruct right now are over 40, with two almost 60. They are so very dedicated and are as constant as the northern star. They are a delight to teach.

We had a gentleman come and train years ago in Bill's dojo. He was had never done any martial arts. He in his mid 50's, slighty over-weight, and had very little flexibility. He stayed with us for about 8 or 9 months and left when his job Pastoral job got very busy and was doing a lot of marriages.

He was given my vote as the most improved student in that dojo. He was consistently there and worked hard. I saw such a tremendous improvement in his flexibilty. I wish he had stayed.

Many instructors won't devote as much time with seniors as they do with the younger, more flexible, stronger students who appear to show so much more promise. That is a shame.

Regards,
Vicki

[chef]

Another thing: I have invited and encouraged people of every age to try out our karate classes. So many older people decline the offer, thinking that they are too old to start karate.

My response: never. You are never too old to benefit from any martial arts class. What better way to increase flexibility, strength, cor-ordination, awareness, and much more.

We learn to adjust to the level of the person we are training with, whether it is our equal, a child, a newbie, or a senior. It should not matter.

It is a journey we can all benefit from.

Regards,
Vicki

[f.Channell]

Dana,

Don't estrogen levels drop in women as they age and rise in men as they age?

So at a senior age conditioning levels would begin to approach one another?

What's your thoughts on this?

F.

[Dana Sheets]

Hi Fred,

Tis true that estrogen begins to drop during perimenopause and lowers at its completion in menopause. Testosterone doesn't really rise signficantly however. And you're also talking about once a woman reaches 40-55 years old. So I guess that two new students, both over 55 who start at the same time would have less of a conditioning gap, but the male still has more testosterone (on average).

However much of conditioning is a slow and steady progression built up over years that affects the ligaments, tendons, bone, as well as the muscle.

Too bad we won't have a nice empiracle measure of Uechi conditioning. We only have anectode and legend.

I'm also talking about bias in terms of if folks are able to train side by side who train for different reasons. If you have folks at extreme ends of differing viewpoints (full contact vs training for health and friendship) then those two groups might have trouble training together. And this is really only an issue if the culture of the dojo isn't made clear to everyone somehow.

Sometimes those messages are sent physically - which works for some. However for prospective students it would be nice to be able to demonstrate the culture of the dojo before they sign on the dotted line, buy the uniform, and then get knocked against the wall, or suddenly discover that no free fighting of any kind is done at that school.

[AAAhmed46]

I'm working on a project right now that is looking at how biased opinions are formed and passed on.

An overwhelming majority of humans give more weight to their own personal experiences or the experiences of a close friend over proven research and fact. I'm sure that for a very long time this helped us stay alive and be successful.

However today, particularly in a dojo environement, I think it can be devasting.
Bias is really a pre-supposition based on judgements informed by impressions and individual experiences.

One bias I have encounted in the dojo is that women can't do hard conditioning.
Women can indeed do hard conditioning - and women are not men. So while men benefit from their testosterone and can condition more quickly and with fewer repetitions than women. Women, because of the presence of estrogen, can condition - it just takes longer - sometimes twice a long. I have also found that women must be more consistent in their conditioning or it doesn't hold as long as it does for most men.

In the dojo that might mean that two students who join on the same day, one male and one female, could be perceived to be progressing at different rates and the male student could be perceived as a "better" student because he has conditioned more quickly. The perception of "better" is bias.

Another bias is that a person who is overweight or obese is not be a good student because they are often dropping out of exercises, throwing lower kicks, skipping more classes. However that individual may be making great personal strides in their health, well-being, and fighting ability. Doesn't their progress make them a good student even if they haven't gained mastery of certain skills?

I said in my seminar at camp that if you want to run a school to make the toughest fighters ever - that is great and I wish you much success. However I think if that is the kind of school you want then you should be very clear about explaining that to prospective students when people explore your school.

If you are running and school and want a range of people to participate in your classes then you have the challenge of being opening minded and unbiased towards who is a "good student" and who is not.

My teacher has said that one of the most difficult things is to be consistent. As teachers and senior students in the dojo I think it is up to us to keep in mind their our personal biases and prejudices may be inadvertently helping to push people out of the dojo.

I'm doing a program right now for teachers about differentiated instruction. They suggesting changing assessment so there are two grades - one for mastery of baseline state standards content and one for personal improvement wrt gained knowledge and skill.

So a student might receice a "c" in their baseline mastery rating because they have managed to learn about 70% of what is needed for a certain standard - however they can also receive an "a" as a measure of their personal improvement.

It goes back to something an Okinawan master by the name of Uechi Kanei once said..."Train all who come..."

Yeah but look at it this way, woman tend to be smaller then men, maybe that has alot to do with it.

But get a man and a woman the same size and weight and make them condition, and they both probably have a the same limit, or are close.

Maybe thats where the bias is?

EDIT: Maybe thats what CAUSES the bias, thats what i meant.

[Dana Sheets]

Since there's no science on this either way we can't say for sure - but it is my strong opinion - that with testosterone and the extra muscle mass it brings and how that plays into everything else - at the very top end of conditioning performance (i.e. banging arms and legs and hands and feet into things) the peak male will significantly exceed the peak female if they are the same build.

Height and weight don't really work - because a woman would be carrying significantly more fat (unless she were terribly thin) and the male would be carrying considerably more muslce.

However that's not bias. Bias is a value judgement that would see a more conditioned male as a better student and a lesser conditioned female as a worse student.

Let's say a student would like to join a school and that student has one arm. Will that student be a good student or a bad student?

My opinion is that if you make that decision before the student gets on the floor - you're expressing bias...no matter what descriptive quality of a student we're talking about.

[AAAhmed46]

Since there's no science on this either way we can't say for sure - but it is my strong opinion - that with testosterone and the extra muscle mass it brings and how that plays into everything else - at the very top end of conditioning performance (i.e. banging arms and legs and hands and feet into things) the peak male will significantly exceed the peak female if they are the same build.

Height and weight don't really work - because a woman would be carrying significantly more fat (unless she were terribly thin) and the male would be carrying considerably more muslce.

However that's not bias. Bias is a value judgement that would see a more conditioned male as a better student and a lesser conditioned female as a worse student.

Let's say a student would like to join a school and that student has one arm. Will that student be a good student or a bad student?

My opinion is that if you make that decision before the student gets on the floor - you're expressing bias...no matter what descriptive quality of a student we're talking about.

The girls in our classes can take some good shots, and they got that way because they were given the chance.


I admit, sometimes i do hit them lightly, simply because it's programed in my to be gentle. But when they ask for hard shots,i give it to them and they seem unfazed.
My point?
I think culturally this misconception is ingrained.

[Dana Sheets]

I think there's a huge difference between taking a good shot and maximum conditioning.

You don't have to convince me that women can be strong in conditioning and training and hitting and everything else. That's something I already strongly believe.

I'm saying that most men will reach a higher level of strength and conditioning because they are men. There will be exceptions.

And like I said earlier - until there's empiracle evidence or a way to measure it, we'll not know beyond a shadow of doubt.

Does anybody know of any women who have broken multiple baseball bats in one strike with shin kicks? I'd love to be able to reference that.

Thanks.
-dana

[gmattson]

but I can't think of any women who has been "held back" from promotions because of her sex.

Joan Neide was recently promoted to 7th dan. She is a tiger, but I don't think anyone feels that physically she is as strong as Vinny Christiano, who was just promoted to 7th dan.

On the other hand, I can't think of any two people who will meet equal standards in the tough department or in all the other physical/mental capabilities areas this thread appears to address.

So, bottom line, we are all individuals and our expectations for our students, regarding physical/mental skills, will be more on "what can this person do" and "realization of potential" rather than a rigid definition of requirements and standards.

"So a student might receive a "c" in their baseline mastery rating because they have managed to learn about 70% of what is needed for a certain standard - however they can also receive an "a" as a measure of their personal improvement.

It goes back to something an Okinawan master by the name of Uechi Kanei once said..."Train all who come..."

Not all teachers understand this and many simply disagree with the concept.

Interesting thread.

[Dana Sheets]

The perception of physical size as a positive attribute can definitely lead to bias. Any quality that is able to be perceived can be the source of bias -- in particular I'm talking about surface attributes such as ethnicity, gender, age, and over or underweight.

I recently read something (Sci Amer Mind again) that discussed how in the workplace if a creative task was at hand - it was important to have a diverse group of thinkers to solve the problem. However managers will see more success for the completion of a task that's already been figured out (such as assembly of a machine by instruction) if the group of workers has less diversity.

Also more time spent together as a group spends will moderate tensions around perceived or actual differences.

This all basically boils down to "try not to judge them - give 'em a chance an see how they do" however what we run into are pre-conceived notions of how long a "chance" is and how many "tries" folks get before we start making value judgements about them.


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The jargon term in educational psychology for being aware of your own thinking and making adjustments based on desired outcomes is called "metacognition". So if you examine your thinking and reasoning around any particular topic you can learn more about yourself and at the same time look for improvements.
http://coe.sdsu.edu/eet/Articles/metaco ... /start.htm

I think it is much of what we do on the forums...talk out loud, get feedback, change our thinking about something - or not.

[Stryke]

The perception of physical size as a positive attribute can definitely lead to bias. Any quality that is able to be perceived can be the source of bias -- in particular I'm talking about surface attributes such as ethnicity, gender, age, and over or underweight.

It is only Bias if it extends beyond the initial critique , physical size in a lot of contexts is a positive attribute not a perception .

as is over and underweight negative , and even gender has positives and negatives in a practical sense otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation .

It is about identifying weaknesses and strengths , every individual being unique .

If we gloss over weaknesses to be pc we short change the student .

it can all lead to bias .. but that doesnt mean we should not identify weakness .

I have many of em , despite being male and 220 pounds , maybe thats two sometimes , maybe sometimes it`s a strength .

[Dana Sheets]

Absolutely - any of these attributes can also be strengths or used to indentify ways to enhance the training.

However the perennial questions for dojo leaders are "Why don't they come & start?" and "Why don't they stay?"

Rory has posted a number of times about how some teachers make themselves the focus of the training - so that the student is trying to please the teacher instead of being focused on generating and achieving their own goals.

In the same vein I'm talking about students who joins a school/group that isn't a good match because of how that school/group trains vs a student who is looked down upon in their training because of the pre-suppositions of their training partners/teachers that may or may not be based in something that really matters.

At one end we have a survivalist who can swim, hunt, make shelter, and fight before they come into the dojo and at the other we have parent who can't swim, can't make a shelter, and can't fight before they come into the dojo. And then there's a million variations of that.

So the idea to really take students as individuals, as unique, is - in my way of thinking - really, really important.

Back in the day you were training all young Chinese men from the same province or all young Okinawan men from the same town. That's just not the world most of us live and train in today. So I'm asking the question of what that means as a training partner and as a teacher.

happy training,
d

[cxt]

I think the 2 biggest problem/reasons with why people quit is unrealistc expectations and not having a good idea for why they "really" want to train in the first place.