Women Techniques?....

[Dave Young]

Greetings everyone...I have posted this thread to solicit your ideas and thoughts on a subject that I try to address daily in my career.

Woman based techniques...here are some thoughts....

If a woman can do it why isn't taught to a man as well....I mean isn't survival for both genders.

Does this mean that woman can not do the same techniques as a man?..I know for a FACT this is NOT TRUE (as everything we teach is for all genders), so why not change what your teaching so EVERYONE gets the good information?

If you are changing what you would teach a man so you can teach it to a woman, then in many ways you have just lied to the man...and short changed the woman....

Our training we conduct throughout the world is non-gender based..meaning the technique we teach is for both genders.....the tactical application of the technique may change for a number of reasons but the foundation is still the same...Just some thoughts....what are yours?

Dave

[RA Miller]

Dave-

From one direction I agree: if you are in some way adapting a technique to make it possible for a smaller, weaker person to use it, then that efficient version is a better technique for all concerned.

However men and women are often attacked by different kinds of predators with different goals and dynamics. A "charm predator" with a goal of rape is a much rarer problem for a man to deal with than a woman for instance.

And men and women have vastly different stress hormone responses, which affects how they can respond. That has to be taken into account, too.

Rory

[Dave Young]

I guess definitions are needed...because I somewhat agree with you on the dynamics of a male / female attack...but to be honest I am not connecting with smaller and weaker......

The two catagories we deal with are you either get it right or you don't....If we are teaching a technique that is not effective for both genders and need to change the technique for the weaker person then why not teach it to the biger person as well?....

Understanding that that not all techniques work on all people, not all techniques can be done by all people...and there is always a marginal rule of error on application no matter who is applying it....

We teach the females the same thing we teach the men in our classes and for the last 26 years we have not had a problem with it...I was just wondering why some people need to break up the surivial into men and female....I know in the past I have heard some negative comments from women on why it is not the same......just another thought...

Dave

[AAAhmed46]

Dave-



And men and women have vastly different stress hormone responses, which affects how they can respond. That has to be taken into account, too.

Rory

Learn something new everyday.

[Dave Young]

I was hoping that after I posted this thread there would be some comments or opinions on woman based techniques...

Are there ANY females in this group...if so please share your opinion....

Thanks

Dave

[Dana Sheets]

Hey Rory,

Do you have a reference I can cite for the stress hormone reponse stuff. I mention this to folks all the time but the book I used to reference (the armoured rose) is now out of print. Thanks.

-------------------

I guess folks would be asking themselves if anything in Uech should be taught differently to men or to women.

I often teach variations based on height and reach dynamics. If they're so big you can't reach the shoulder for a stopping attack, go lower or pass under the arm...etc.

So I'd like to hear from other folks what they've adopted in Uechi to make it work either for themselves or their students. I'm happy to repost information if folks would like to share it via a PM too.

happy training,
d

[John Giacoletti]

Forget the Uechi. What do women in a brothel do when confronted with violence?

The nasty Okinawan secret is that MEN were not alowed to wear jiffa in their hair to hold the top knot secure after regulations by the government in the early years of the 20th century.

Women could and did utilize this weapon in self defense. A few strokes with a pair of jiffa will cut an assultant to shreads in a matter of moments.

[Valkenar]

One reason to make techniques tailored to women is that there are physical differences between men's and women's bodies. Weight balance, strength distribution and leverage all vary. Now I don't know any techniques to teach specifically to women, but I do think there is a place for it. As medicine learned not all that long ago, women are not just small men.

[JimHawkins]

I can see the tactical issues.. But I'm a Wing Chun guy, and WC is supposed to be a "woman's art" so emphasis is seen as "ideals for women" are simply ideal--in terms of use of leverage, sensitivity, angles, economy, changing, finally making the most of the least in all things--maximum minimalism...

But different techniques? Different concepts??

How about naming some specific moves or ideas that are "better" taught to women? Are there any?

"Better" taught to men?

I can think of one or two moves that some men might train that would be silly IMO for women to train. But then the true value of those moves might come into question.

[Dana Sheets]

In some fields techniques that were traditionally taught one way have been altered after the inclusion of women. One specific example is in firefighting. The standard for holding a hose prior to 1974 was for the hose to be held by two hands away from the body. Most men were able to accomplish this task - but fatigued quickly.

In 1974 Judy Brewer became the first female professional firefighter in the country in Arlington, VA. A few years into her service she proposed that the hose could be held by two hands on the hip - thus transferring the weight to legs and reducing fatigue. This quickly became the standard for all firefighters - male or female.

It is a bit of a sticky situation when talking about techniques in traditional martial arts like Uechi. Uechi (vis a vis its roots) was designed for use by 17-18th century men fighting in Southern China.

This pretty much excludes the idea that somewhere within the Uechi kata are hidden techniques that women can use to defend themselves on the couch, in bed, elsewhere in the house, in a car, or where most of our physical assults take place.

However this doesn't mean that the principles of movement in Uechi can't be applied to those same situations and solutions discovered that will work. However the baseline templates weren't really meant for sofa defense. However the elbow/strike backfist movement (slightly altered) is a great entry for ending the unwanted hand on the leg if aggressive action is called for.

I think one of the main ideas that I've heard from more than one teacher is that a weaker person may need to augment upper body techniques by using two hands for the technique instead of just one. This isn't women vs man stuff - this is smaller vs bigger stuff. And there will always be someone bigger.

The main thing I alter for women is expectations.

-Expect that conditioning takes a little longer
-Expect that you will need more repetitions to make something work unless you already come from a very physical background
-Expect that it will take you a little longer to hit hard and "hard" for you may look differently than hard for someone else.
-Understand that it is OK if you can't make the really loud sounds hitting the shields, you will some day soon.

I think women are forced to be more precise in their techniques because if we dont' have the body aligned well and use the structure inherent in Uechi we can't always just muscle through our errors.

And starting to add examples into illustrations for if you can't reach a specfic target on an opponent e.g. if you can't reach the neck and stay balanced - select a different target or bring the neck down where you can better reach it, etc.

What I also try to drop is my expectation of what "should" work and be open to what does work.

[jorvik]

I think you can be very superficial about this .....that women are just inferior men e.g. physically weaker. less aggressive. Rather than concentrating on the better physical qualities of the female gender e.g. reflex action is a lot quicker, ( also women hold the record for long distance swimming..irrelevant but interesting )
The direction I would go is that women have bigger stronger pelvises hips etc .utilise them, faster reflexes....and also there are women dominated martial arts such as NAGINATA in Japan.and many silat systems are heade by women

[RA Miller]

Hey Rory,

Do you have a reference I can cite for the stress hormone reponse stuff. I mention this to folks all the time but the book I used to reference (the armoured rose) is now out of print. Thanks.

d

Dana- You can still order the book directly from her. I e-mailed her a while ago and her reply, in part:

"In the mean time, to answer your question, yes, I do have copies. One is
$15 with $2 shipping and handling, 10 is $120, - and I pick up the shipping."

Her e-mail is : duchesselina@beckenham.org

The book is not as foot noted as I'd like for further research. She does cite a secondary reference to a Master's and Johnson study as a side note.

Rory

[Valkenar]

women have ... faster reflexes

Really? I'd never heard that, do you know of any source I can read for that?

[Dave Young]

the teaching a technique where you need less strength, or the student has less of an endurance, challenged by height, size of hands, or the length of their inseam strongly commercializes traditional and untraditional/realist training.

The difference we have found is this....

Traditional training; The technique is based on a founding fact that you need to do it this way....Where the end result places the student in a "position of advantage."

So during the traditional type of training with exercises the students are ALLOWED to either pair themselves up with their partner which is usually their friend or they choose someone of equal height and weight....

Untraditional/Realist training; The technique is based on a founding fact that you need to do it this way or within these founding guidelines...Where the end result places the student in a "position of advantage."

So during the untraditional/realist type of training with exercises the students are NOT ALLOWED to either pair themselves up with their partner which is usually their friend or they paired with someone of equal height and weight....So the technique is presented and learned from the beginning the various adjustments that are needed to be made, w orking within these guidelines.....

Over the last 10 years I have monitored and attended several quote; Woman based techniques classes and seminars in my travels, and when these techniques taught only to woman found that the person teaching the technique was very limited in their experience and presentation, almost as if they only knew it this way, the way they are teaching it....

I have grown to have a very strong faith and confidence in the performance of females in my career field, and would choose many females over men counterparts to be at my side when the time presents itself, especially when it comes to training them to stay alive, and then go back and teach what we presented to them to their own department.

About 15 years ago a group associated with the ACLU was trying to pass a bill making police instructors liable for the end product they put out and for what they were teaching...it never went anywhere but think of this as this....I tell my trainers and other instructors that is you were to be held liable legally in a court of law would you be teaching the same way in regards to techniques the same this as you are doing now?

Their replies have been no...

Just something to think about...(As all forums are designed for)

Thanks...

Dave