The Bozo Chronicles Continue

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Bill Glasheen
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The Bozo Chronicles Continue

Post by Bill Glasheen »

This is a continuation of a debate about Seung Hi Cho, and the care he did not receive prior to his murderous rampage on the campus of Virginia Tech.

I had some harsh words for the mental health professional who let Cho go and declared him "normal" enough to be released to the general public. The wording didn't sit well with me as well as all the available evidence visible to the lay community around him. Cho's afflictions weren't spontaneous generation. He had a pretty significant brain disorder either in the autism family or perhaps some brand of pre-schizophrenia. Unfortunately we probably won't know the entire picture.

Nevertheless Cho was forcibly detained after years of observed communication issues, two run-ins with the police for stalking, and an expressed desire to commit suicide. The wording which justified his release bothered me tremendously. In my view, the mental health professional either didn't bother to read the patient's medical history (readily available in a college town) or otherwise used poor judgement. Ian disagrees with me at least in "the debate," naturally taking the side of mental health professionals in a defective system.

Here's more information coming out about this critical period in Cho's life where he may have missed an opportunity to have a better future.

In my view, this article is pretty damning. Everyone wants to blame the system. The fact that Cho's case was already classified as "most dangerous" (see article below) put him in the highest priority category. And yet the ball was dropped and everyone's pointing figures elsewhere.

Bozo is as bozo does. "It" happens one responsible individual at a time.

- Bill
Cho Didn't Get Court-Ordered Treatment

By Brigid Schulte and Chris L. Jenkins
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, May 7, 2007; Page A01


Seung Hui Cho never received the treatment ordered by a judge who declared him dangerously mentally ill less than two years before his rampage at Virginia Tech, law enforcement officials said, exposing flaws in Virginia's labyrinthine mental health system, including confusion about the law, spotty enforcement and inadequate funding.

Neither the court, the university nor community services officials followed up on the judge's order, according to dozens of interviews. Cho never got the treatment, according to authorities who have seen his medical files. And although state law says the community services board should have made sure Cho got help, a board official said that was "news to us."

It is impossible to know if the treatment, ordered in December 2005, would have prevented the massacre last month, which left 32 students and faculty dead before Cho killed himself. But interviews with state and university officials, lawmakers, special justices, attorneys, advocates and mental health agencies across the state made clear that what happened with Cho is not unusual in cases of "involuntary outpatient commitment" -- Virginia's name for the kind of order issued by Cho's judge.

Cho, they said, slipped through a porous mental health system that suffers from muddled, seldom-enforced laws and inconsistent practices. Special justices who oversee hearings such as the one for Cho said they know that some people they have ordered into treatment have not gotten it. They find out when the person "does something crazy again," in the words of one justice -- when they are brought back into court because they are considered in imminent danger of harming themselves or others.

"The system doesn't work well," said Tom Diggs, executive director of the Commission on Mental Health Law Reform, which has been studying the state mental health system and will report to the General Assembly next year.

Involuntary outpatient commitments are relatively uncommon in Virginia, officials said, because those in the system know they are not enforced. They are almost an act of faith.

"When I let the person go outpatient, I always put on the record, 'I hope I don't read about you tomorrow in the paper. . . . Don't make me look like the foolish judge that could have stopped you,' " said Lori Rallison, a special justice in Prince William County. "And knock wood, that hasn't happened. But it can."

Cho's case is a classic example of some of the flaws in the outpatient treatment system.

By 2005, Cho, an English major at Virginia Tech, had frightened teachers and classmates with his macabre and violent writings. He referred to himself as Question Mark, never made eye contact and rarely spoke. But it wasn't until two undergraduate women complained that Cho sent instant messages and left cryptic lines from "Romeo and Juliet" on their dry-erase boards that Cho came to the attention of police. Although the girls decided not to press charges, police met with Cho on Dec. 13 and warned him to leave the women alone.

That night, Cho e-mailed a roommate saying he might as well kill himself. The roommate contacted police, who brought Cho to the New River Valley Community Services Board, the government mental health agency that serves Blacksburg.

There, Kathy Godbey examined Cho and found he was "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization," according to court papers. That was enough to have Cho temporarily detained at Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Clinic in Christiansburg, a few miles from campus, until a special justice could review his case in a commitment hearing.

New River Valley's Mike Wade maintained that the community services board's responsibility ended there.

"Unless, out of the commitment hearing, the judge issued outpatient treatment specific to our agency, that's where it ends with us," said Wade, the board's community liaison. "Since we weren't named the provider of that outpatient treatment, we weren't involved in the case."

A day later, on Dec. 14, 2005, Paul M. Barnett, the special judge, decided that Cho was an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness and ordered him into involuntary outpatient treatment. It is a practice that Terry W. Teel, Cho's court-appointed lawyer and a special judge himself, said they use "all the time" in Blacksburg. Special justices such as Barnett are lawyers with some expertise and training who are appointed by the jurisdiction's chief judge.

Teel said he does not remember Cho or the details of his case. But he said Cho most likely would have been ordered to seek treatment at Virginia Tech's Cook Counseling Center. "I don't remember 100 percent if that's where he was directed," Teel said. "But nine times out of 10, that's where he would be."

And there, he said, ended the court's responsibility. The court doesn't follow up, he said. "We have no authority."

Virginia Tech mental health officials declined to discuss Cho's case because of privacy laws. But they said they are never informed when a person is referred to their facilities by the court.

"When a court gives a mandatory order that someone get outpatient treatment, that order is to the individual, not an agency," said Christopher Flynn, director of the Cook Counseling Center. The one responsible for ensuring that the mentally ill person receives help in these sorts of cases, he said, is the mentally ill person. "I've never seen someone delivered to me with an order that says, 'This person has been discharged; he's now your responsibility.' That doesn't happen."

Virginia law says community services boards -- the local agencies responsible for a range of mental health services -- "shall recommend a specific course of treatment and programs" for people such as Cho who are ordered to receive outpatient treatment. The law also says these boards "shall monitor the person's compliance."

When read those portions of the statute, Wade said, "That's news to us."

In fact, the law even says that when a dangerously mentally ill person ordered into treatment doesn't show up, as was the case with Cho, he or she can be brought back before the special judge, and if found still in crisis, can be committed to a psychiatric institution for up to 180 days.

None of that happened in Cho's case.

Community service boards saw 115,000 mentally ill people in Virginia in 2005, at a cost of $127 million.

Virginia is one of only eight states in the country to require that people be an "imminent" danger to themselves or others before they can even be brought before a judge. Advocates argue that that is such a high standard that only the most dangerous cases are considered and involuntary hospitalization is usually required.

When involuntary outpatient treatment is ordered, officials say they often have no idea what happens to the mentally ill person once they leave the courtroom.

Tom Geib, director of Prince William's Community Services Board, who also serves on the Mental Health Law Reform Commission Task Force studying outpatient commitment, blames the lack of follow-up on a lack of resources. Caseworkers at his agency may make calls or write letters if someone ordered into involuntary outpatient treatment doesn't show up for appointments. "But in terms of going out and trying to find them, we don't have the resources to do that," he said.

Mary Ann Bergeron, head of the Virginia Association of Community Services Boards, which represents the 40 agencies within the state, said the boards are responsible for a person committed to outpatient care only "if he seeks treatment. But we can't give him treatment if he refuses it."

But advocates and some special justices disagree.

"The services board job is not to say, 'We tried, and they don't want treatment.' Their job is to report back to the court," said Mark Bodner, a special justice in Fairfax County. He said that in his six-year tenure, that has happened only once.

Staff writers Jerry Markon and Sari Horwitz and researcher Meg Smith contributed to this report.
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Post by IJ »

This seems like progress to me. Here are the key elements:

1) We have a systems problem. All of those individual people see hundreds of cases of people MORE disturbed than Cho (destroying their apartments, storing months of urine, with nothing but moldy food in the fridge, making threats, wandering the streets unaware of their location and without a purpose, responding to internal stimuli... if they decided to take it unto themselves to track each person ordered to have outpatient treatment, they'd have... well, a whole new job. There wasn't sufficient oversight. Each person can do their job, meet their responsibilities, and yet the care mandated isn't received. Systems problem.

Important: The blame game works exceedingly poorly in this instance. In a hospital, where errors are common, attacking the people who actually admit they made one (while everyone else is silent) doesn't weed out bad apples and discourages honesty and limits what we actually know about the errors.

The rest is little stuff...

2) It's ideal not to make diagnoses from afar... ("He had a pretty significant brain disorder either in the autism family or perhaps some brand of pre-schizophrenia.")

3) "In my view, the mental health professional either didn't bother to read the patient's medical history (readily available in a college town) or otherwise used poor judgement.

Actually, and has already been detailed, you have no way of knowing how easily records are obtained in this town, or whether they are available to a psychiatrist without a signed release, whether the psychiatrist read these records, and whether he had any control over the release of Cho because the patient has to be an imminent threat to himself or others to be forcibly detained. It also remains an leap of faith to imply that holding Cho would have helped. You don't keep people until they're no longer ill, or weird; people who "express a desire to commit suicide" are very common, 99% of them are seeking attention and don't want to die (the ones who want to die just go kill themselves more often), and people admitted for "communications issues" and feeling depressed are released after a few days unless they really do look like imminent suicide risks. There's no other practical result. How would that have helped? Only, perhaps, by making him more inclined to seek outpatient treatment, a result which is far from universal. The issue outlined here isn't the individual bozo shrink but the "porous" outpatient care program.

"Ian disagrees with me at least in "the debate," naturally taking the side of mental health professionals in a defective system.""

I disagree with you period... it's a mistake to read a few exerpts from a new article (looking for the sensationalist angle often) and decide to condemn a man who works in a system you have minimal familiarity with, and decide he's incompetent. As a counterpoint to your implication that I side with the physicians all the time, what about my numerous posts admitting the frequent errors that occur in medicine and the need to address it? Here I'm merely saying you should get the facts and talk to someone in the know before canceling the trial.

Let me ask a parallel question--what should the LEO's done? Why didn't they jail him, preventing the tragedy? Why didn't a judge note communication problems, 2 episodes of stalking, and odd interpersonal style, and recognize the threat?

Because the system doesn't work that well. Those characteristics are too common and poorly predictive to act on. You'd deprive too many people of their right to freedom to prevent too few incidents... and there aren't enough workers to police every street corner. It's analogous to the mental health side of things.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian wrote:
Let me ask a parallel question--what should the LEO's done? Why didn't they jail him, preventing the tragedy? Why didn't a judge note communication problems, 2 episodes of stalking, and odd interpersonal style, and recognize the threat?
The LEOs and judges did their jobs. Cho was detained, and he got the highest risk mental health classification allowed by law. It is RARELY applied, so the numbers argument doesn't wash.

The ball got dropped after that. Cho probably shouldn't have been allowed outpatient treatment when it appears everyone knows it effectively exists via an honor system contract with the (mentally ill) patient.

No improvements will happen in the system until parties come to the table and admit there were problems and mistakes. In my view, the lack of ownership here is shocking.

Once failure is acknowledged, THEN people can talk about system changes which will prevent individuals from being set up for failure.

- Bill
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Post by cxt »

I have a buddy that is a pilot, he keeps telling me that "no single error ever kills a pilot."

By which he means that its usually a combination of factors that end up causeing a major problem.

This is starting to look somewhat the same with multiple balls being dropped by multiple people multiple times.

Speading the blame allows people to reduce their gulit over their actions or inactions.

At the end of the day I am less interested in blame than I am in making sure that the problems get fixed, the cracks get shut and the loopholes closed.

Bills right, until people recongnize that problems occured, until people take ownership of their mistakes, the problem will remain.

It won't get fixed until people admit that there IS a problem.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Post by IJ »

"Cho probably shouldn't have been allowed outpatient treatment when it appears everyone knows it effectively exists via an honor system contract with the (mentally ill) patient."

Oh. Since you live in Virginia, you can lead the charge 1) to convince mental health rights advocates (including the courts) that mandatory inpatient care will become the norm and 2) to convince taxpayers to fund such care. Because absent evidence and argument, it seems to me that such a plan would be legally, practically, and fiscally impossible.

"No improvements will happen in the system until parties come to the table and admit there were problems and mistakes. In my view, the lack of ownership here is shocking."

Here's a summary of what's been admitted, from the article:

"Cho, they said, slipped through a porous mental health system that suffers from muddled, seldom-enforced laws and inconsistent practices."

I think that's a good start!

"Bills right, until people recongnize that problems occured, until people take ownership of their mistakes, the problem will remain. It won't get fixed until people admit that there IS a problem."

No one's denying that the system didn't work. Multiple people were mentioned in the article pointing out holes in the system. The question is whether picking on one person will help anything. The answer is that it won't. You COULD decide to focus on the one bozo who failed to singlehandedly ensure that Cho got treatment, because we now know that Cho became the #1 school shooter in our nation's history. But at the time his case was being handled, it looked like every other case they see, and as the article makes it very clear, there are innumerable such cases which are not followed up because of holes in the system, legal restraints, lack of ownership (does a law specifying a clinic "shall monitor" complicance then make that happen? How? Was there funding, or instructions associated with the mandate? Was it clear what to do--were they to monitor, or were they to enforce? How? To people studying systems change in healthcare, its well known that a rule or policy is about the weakest, least likely to change anything intervention one can make.) How is the provider who saw Cho more responsible than all the other providers and cogs in the machine who saw others who didn't kill? He is not, and attacking all other workers in this system just because we're upset doesn't help anyone.

Bill is right that there IS a lack of ownership here; there now needs to be planning to correct this big hole in the system. It wouldn't make sense for people to falsely admit now that it WAS their job to enforce the therapy requirement with Cho; it was no one's job, that was the problem, and no one person seeing multiple such cases regularly has the time to redesign the system between patients, or for each individual patient. Actually, individualizing medical care under the illusion that a skilled individual in possession of all knowledge can design the best program for a unique individual is the best way to introduce variation and error into the system.

Here's another attempt at an analogy:

Ted and his identical brothers Tom and Tim work as competent brake installers, Ted and Tom at Volkwagon and Tim at Toyota. The cars Ted and Tom work on have a certain failure rate inherent to the factory, and the same goes for the cars Tim works on, although that rate is lower. If Ted and Tom do the same exact work on shifts A and B at Volkswagon, neither one is more responsible when a Jetta made during shift A has a brake failure and kills a family. That's a reflection of an inherent failure rate in the system, which is due to a combination of factors. Business (at least, until recently, high performing Japanese businesses--America is catching up) know that singling out Ted because he was on during the shift that made the bad car will not help. Ted isn't more at fault, and he can't just "do better" when yelled at, if his factory produces cars that have a certain fault rate. And their brother Tim isn't an angel just because he got a job at Toyota and their cars didn't have any brake failures this year. Of course, we DO need to identify Tad, who's been showing up drunk to work on the line (I've heard nothing that suggests this shrink was impaired, however; just excerpts from a case report that were selected for their newsworthiness and do not condemn the whole report, which we haven't had the privilege of reading).

Yelling at Ted and Tad is generally how malpractice works in the USA.

Better would be to understand how systems lead to errors for Ted, Tom, and Tim, and how to effectively weed out the Tads.
--Ian
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Post by cxt »

IJ

I still feel that no snowflake in an avalance EVER feels personally responsible.

People dropped the ball, people made decsions that ultimatley had seriously negative outcomes for others, people made choices.

That should be highlighted.

Until people are held responsible by others, or choose to take that responsibity for themselevs--nothing changes.

What we have here is a "Tragedy of the Commons" in mental helathcare--made worse by lax laws and poor enforcement.

we have such a sitution because NOBODY was actually responsible.

Just a chain of small mistakes and errors and assumtpions that led to great tragedy.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The truth in this lies somewhere in-between the strawman you're trying to create of me, Ian, and the pseudoperfect W Edwards Deming world of CQI you're trying to paint.

What we have here is an anectotal view of a failed system.

What we need here is coordination and continuity of care. And guess what? Whether MDs like it or not, THEIR performance is now beginning to be measured just like every other worker in the US. (For what it's worth, most don't like it.)

I do have an inside track on this as I'm involved in creating tools which measure both economic efficiency and compliance to evidence-based guidelines. I've also been involved in the past via basic research and HEDIS measures which infer care coordination and continuity.

We can and do attribute patients to individual physicians in the process of measuring their performance. And you know what? "Not on my watch" or "not my responsibility" doesn't cut it. Physicians who hate being measured often continue the usual excuses (my patients are sicker, didn't have the files, etc., etc.) until suddenly they become part of a pay-for-performance program. Then suddenly they are empowered. Go figure...

Yes I'm being a bit harsh all along with this. But right or wrong, good or bad, physician performance is being measured. One bad anecdote doesn't (necessarily) a bad MD make. But it very well may show as a "typical" problem for some in a peer-based measure of performance.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

"I still feel that no snowflake in an avalance EVER feels personally responsible."

I'm not sure how you've concluded this. If you go back to the first bozo thread, there is an example of how physicians can be devastated by bad outcomes (even if they're done their best, and even if they did their job well). And at least all the docs I've worked with (with a few disturbing exceptions I reported) do feel really quite bad if they make a mistake.

"People dropped the ball, people made decsions that ultimatley had seriously negative outcomes for others, people made choices. That should be highlighted."

Which choices led most directly to Cho not getting forced into outpatient treatment (NB: didn't say, which choices led to Cho not getting treatment that would have prevented the disaster)? It seems to me it would be setting up a system where compliance monitoring was absent. THAT decision is not something you can expect a worker in the field to review as part of their regular work. COULD they have done something? Maybe some did, wrote a letter or called someone or made suggestions... who knows, and for those who tried, props. BUT it's not the job of the troops in Iraq to design friend-or-foe indentification systems. Management is supposed to... manage, I guess. And yeah, someone should take responsibility for improving the situation, but that doesn't mean a head has to roll, or that it should be the doctor, until we hear about some kind of actual error he made and why it's worthy of ridicule--afterall, that Institute of Medicine report was titled "To Err is Human" for a reason.

"What we need here is coordination and continuity of care. And guess what? Whether MDs like it or not, THEIR performance is now beginning to be measured just like every other worker in the US. (For what it's worth, most don't like it.)"

Yeah, agreed, it would have helped if someone's job description included enforcing compliance with care. It's a complete nonsequitor to go into the doctor monitoring discussion. You've absolutely fixated yourself on the idea that if a doctor sees a patient its that doctor's responsibility to force them back into clinic. Who decided that? We're not parole officers. We're not police officers. We're not courts. Heck I don't even control my own schedule. Doctors don't track substance abuse for the courts. We don't report alcohol abuse. We do have some tasks, for example, we are obligated to report evidence of child abuse. But how'd we decide it was a physician job to force clinic compliance (or as was the original charge, to forcibly detain persons who aren't imminent threats under the supposition that it might deter a mass killing later?

Malpractice requires that you show three things: duty, breach of that duty, and resultant harm. Now, this doctor isn't being sued, he's being made out to be a bozo, but that's a reasonably framework. Under what rule, oath, law, whatever, was it this doctor's job to keep tabs on Cho like, I dunno, a branch of the government that issued the court order for treatment?

"We can and do attribute patients to individual physicians in the process of measuring their performance. And you know what? "Not on my watch" or "not my responsibility" doesn't cut it."

And which physicians get assigned patients? Would it be.... the attending for an inpatient stay (my job)? The attending primary care clinic doctor? Or, um, the psychiatrist doing a single, no further contact forensics eval in the ER? And once someone is given an assigned task, are they... made aware? Because I doubt that anyone made Cho this doc's personal respinsibility. He WASN'T. Perhaps things would have been changed if this WAS the doc's job. But we ought not insult people until we show that it was.

As for the docs who make excuses, won't change, all that stuff... yeah, Bill, still on your side in the quality struggle, and as I've mentioned before, I work on many projects to improve my hospital, am in the midst of training to continue that as a major focus of my career, and I have to deal with obstructionist doctors (surgeons are the hardest!) all the time. It's very annoying if whole blocks of doctors refuse to practice best care just "because," and I wholeheartedly agree with you that has to change, but we still have not shown why of all the cogs in this poorly functioning mental health machine in virginia, we should blast a doctor who saw Cho once.

Do we.... hold mechanics who repair a plane once responsible if they ever crash?

Still waiting for this concept to be made clear to me.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian wrote:
Malpractice requires that you show three things

***
I'm not a trial lawyer, don't want to be one, and don't play one on TV. So please stop responding in kind.

The kinds of arguments I'm getting back from you - the kind that do nobody any good and never solve any useful problems - are the reason why I bash trial lawyers all the time. That is particularly true when it comes to healthcare.
Ian wrote:
And which physicians get assigned patients?
There are "white papers" written about this very subject. You don't see a lot about it in the peer-reviewed medical literature because physicans aren't the ones driving MD performance assessment. It's the marketplace - the employer entities paying for said care - that are pushing for and funding such efforts.

There's a bit of work that's being done on this now at NCQA (National Committee for Quality Assurance). I was on a panel reviewing patient attribution algorithms in physician profiling. There are also employer groups (name escapes me at the moment) which have written documents on the subject.

This is somewhat complex, but not rocket science. How you attribute a whole patient or part of a patient's care to an MD depends upon the health benefit, the specialty involved (primary care vs. specialist point of view) and how care generally is directed in such a format. For example you attribute an entire patient to a primary care MD who receives the most dollars, the cardiology experience (through surgery and rehab) to a high dollar cardiologist, and the psych experience to a key (number of visits or dollars) mental health professional in the patient's experience.

Once again... Without external pressure and with the trial lawyer vultures looming around, nobody is responsible, it's someone else's problem, not on my watch, I wasn't given the proper information, etc., etc. But design a pay-for-performance program which rewards health care professionals based upon quality and efficiency measures, and people are mysteriously empowered.

Hmm...

- Bill
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Post by Valkenar »

I have to say, I'm not too keen on living in a world where a doctor has the ability to lock me up on a vague feeling that I might be dangerous. That sounds like what we're expecting of this guy. I'd rather have a few extra potentially-violent people on the street than a few extra eccentric-but-harmless people locked up. Maybe that's just me. Like anything else, you can't have a perfect system. No matter what, some people are going to be locked up that shouldn't and some people who should be locked up won't be. I'm very leery of any move in the direction of locking people up without a very good reason.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

You don't need to "lock up" more people. You just need to be making better decisions at the gate so you have fewer false positives and false negatives.

It's a classic problem in health care, framed very well by health care researchers themselves.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

"You don't need to "lock up" more people. You just need to be making better decisions at the gate so you have fewer false positives and false negatives."

As was discussed in the previous thread, the current science/art of violence or suicide prediction is extremely inaccurate, in part because the events themselves are exceedingly rare, and doctors currently lack the ability to say anything about a particular person except 1) go on their overall impression and 2) use a few key concepts such as access to a means to harm, age, race, willingness to "contract for safety" substance use, and suicide attempt history, to shift the odds of an event a wee bit either way. However, most people detained ARE false positives, that's just the math of it. This is not to say they don't need help, or that the ones released don't need help, but as far as event prediction and prevention goes? Eh, minimal data.

"I'm not a trial lawyer, don't want to be one, and don't play one on TV. So please stop responding in kind."

I'm not either. My point is to overlook the fact that lawyers use this framework and possibly to agree that before you can be faulted for not completing a task, it has to be your task to begin with.

"The kinds of arguments I'm getting back from you - the kind that do nobody any good and never solve any useful problems - are the reason why I bash trial lawyers all the time. That is particularly true when it comes to healthcare."

Bill, your solution was to bash an individual based on partial and highly selected data, without a background in psych asessments. My solution is to look at WHY the problem occured, identify the problems with the system, and craft reasoned solutions with the results. As a result, at least you've changed your approach. We haven't heard much about that bozo doctor for a while, and people are talking about how no one was responsible for followup in this flawed system. That's progress. That's also how quality improvement in hospitals is taught, its the state of the art, whereas the "blame an individual" approach is frowned upon in healthcare but remains the favorite approach of the trial lawyer--they don't want to fix the system, they don't want to udnersand why something happened; they want a person to be responsible, preferably the person with the deepest malpractice wallet.

How you come to criticize my posts for being lawyerly, unproductive, and inappropriate for healthcare when they are the opposite of attorneythink and represent the model for modern quality improvement is beyond me.

"There are "white papers" written about this very subject. You don't see a lot about it in the peer-reviewed medical literature because physicans aren't the ones driving MD performance assessment. It's the marketplace - the employer entities paying for said care - that are pushing for and funding such efforts."

Before anyone gets the idea that the MDs are all against their practice being monitored, a few factoids:

1) doctors do come from an old culture of autonomy, meaning, they always wanted freedom to do what they felt was best for their individual patient, and some are still stuck in this mindset, when the fact is, having an individual imperfect doctor craft a unique solution for every complicated patient s/he sees is NOT the best care that can be provided.

2) some doctors welcome care standardization and monitoring and are leading the efforts to standardize and optimize care, and are working quite actively on the matter with medicare etc on it. At our most recent two meetings on the matter, one of our group doctors, who has worked with the Society of Hospital Medicine's committee on the issue, explained that hospitalists have been leading the effort among physicians to get monitoring and pay-for-performance into practice, particularly in hospitals, since most P4P efforts have been aimed at clinic docs even though lots of error occurs in hospitals.

I'm one of those involved, eager, motivated and cooperative hospital doctors, Bill, and you're preaching to the choir.

"Once again... Without external pressure and with the trial lawyer vultures looming around, nobody is responsible, it's someone else's problem, not on my watch, I wasn't given the proper information, etc., etc. But design a pay-for-performance program which rewards health care professionals based upon quality and efficiency measures, and people are mysteriously empowered. Hmm..."

I don't find this to be much of a surprise. You make sure that people have skin in the game, and they change their practice. What is your conclusion, as pertains to the subject at hand, figuring out who besides Cho failed to intervene in Cho's path to homicide?
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian wrote:
How you come to criticize my posts for being lawyerly...
Woa there, cowboy!

Not lawyerly at all. Rather they appear to be the kinds of comments made about problems in medicine when there is the smell of litigation in the air. There's a big difference!

Kudos, BTW, for all the comments made concerning the state and evolution of medicine.
Ian wrote:
What is your conclusion, as pertains to the subject at hand, figuring out who besides Cho failed to intervene in Cho's path to homicide?
I'm not in the path of the data stream here. All I'm getting is snippets - just as you are.

Some things bother me; some questions remain. And we are looking at just one (1) case - an outlier at that. But the individual bad case sometimes humanizes a remarkable pattern.

Generally in medicine you need to look at 30 to 100 cases before you can begin to see a relatively clear picture.

- Bill
IJ
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Post by IJ »

Ah, you meant I was responding as if to a lawyer. Well, I was responding as if there had been an attack, and there had been, so that's probably why you got that vibe. I don't believe there is a litigation threat for the reasons I outlined: no duty, no breach of duty, and no clear harm, either.

"Generally in medicine you need to look at 30 to 100 cases before you can begin to see a relatively clear picture."

Two thoughts:

1) That's a luxury we don't have when it comes to exceedingly rare events, or disastrous ones, whether we're referring to shuttle explosions, school shootings, or if you want to talk medicine, AIDS medicines after needle/sexual exposures. Attempts to study that accurately failed due to the low frequency of events. So we're stuck with our best guess, which is, go ahead and take em.

2) If we can't draw any conclusions, then we can't conclude that anyone's a bozo, so I'm perfectly happy with that side of the statement. Perhaps further information will identify a real clown, but for the moment, we've got well identified systems problems to correct.
--Ian
IJ
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Post by IJ »

This was in JAMA this week.

New Tools Aid Violence Risk Assessment
Lynne Lamberg
JAMA. 2007;298:499-501.

Excerpts:

"Dangerous or not? Until recently, assessment of whether a person with severe mental illness was likely to commit acts of violence relied solely on clinical impressions and experience."

"These tools, which range from paper-and-pencil questionnaires to software programs, compare an individual's characteristics to known predictors of violence. Scores show where that individual falls on a continuum of risk for committing future violence, said Paul Appelbaum, MD, who directs the division of psychiatry, law, and ethics at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY."

"Assumptions that someone could have or should have known that this massacre would occur are unfounded," Dr. Appelbaum cautioned. "Anyone who says they can diagnose Cho is going well beyond what the facts in the public record allow."

"Researchers found that 53% of 357 patients deemed potentially violent committed a violent act; so did 36% of a comparison group not viewed as potentially violent, matched by age, race, sex, and admission status. Predictions of violence by female patients were not better than chance (Lidz CW et al. JAMA. 1993;269[8]:1007-1011)."

"Clinicians' accuracy in predicting violence in various studies ranged from 14% to 53%, Hoge said. However, it is difficult to generalize from these findings because researchers used different criteria for violent behavior, diverse populations, and variable periods of follow-up."

"About 11% to 13% of people with mental disorders, including schizophrenia, major depression, and bipolar illness, reported violent acts. The highest prevalence of self-reported violence occurred in alcohol abusers (25%) and other drug abusers (35%) (Swanson JW et al. Hosp Community Psychiatry. 1990;41[7]:761-770)."

"To use the COVR, which assesses 106 variables, a clinician enters data from a chart review and a 10-minute interview with a patient. Each patient is asked approximately 40 individualized questions, generated by computer algorithms in response to answers to previous questions (https://www3.parinc.com/products/produc ... uctid=COVR). The software provides an estimate of the likelihood of future violence ranging from 1% to 76% (Monahan J et al. Behav Sci Law. 2006;24[6]:721-730)."
--Ian
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