Population control

[benzocaine]

Teaching my son to keep the deer population at bay!

May be offensive to PETA folk.....

[Bill Glasheen]

Bambie stew tonight!

Deer need human predators, because we killed their natural ones. Shame on humans, but... It's now a done deal. As long as you're a good shot, you're part of the balance of nature.

PeTA can go chat with the tigers about their "ethics."



Happy Thanksgiving. IMO, better than turkey.

- Bill

[benzocaine]

Thanks Bill. Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

As for being a good shot.... my .270 short mag bullet went right through the pericardium Bambi wasn't even able to run a yard before she fell over and died.

That's the way it should be done IMHO. I get no pleasure in making an animal suffer. The quick death it got yesterday is better than starving to death this winter. Food is scarce this year. Most deer are staying near the roads to eat grass. I shot mine less than half a mile from a road.

[Valkenar]

PeTA can go chat with the tigers about their "ethics."

"Animals do it" is not much of an ethical argument. Animals do many things that any sane person would consider morally repugnant (such as devouring their mates/young). Our worst behaviors come from acting out natural impulses.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with hunting for food. Purely recreational hunting is more dubious but not a very big deal (though it still boils down to causing an animal pain for personal entertainment). The overpopulation situation also makes it more justifiable. Certainly if the deer need to be culled for human safety concerns there's no reason people shouldn't get some entertainment in the process.

[Bill Glasheen]

"Animals do it" is not much of an ethical argument.

That's a strawman attack on my point, Justin.

Certainly if the deer need to be culled for human safety concerns there's no reason people shouldn't get some entertainment in the process.

I personally would consider that a pretty weak argument. They were here before we were. They have a right to their space in the universe.

Deer need human predators, because we killed their natural ones. Shame on humans, but... It's now a done deal. As long as you're a good shot, you're part of the balance of nature.

Deer - like rabbits - multiply faster than their food supply can be sustained. They have evolved in nature to be in balance with predators that feed on them. Predatory action culls the weak and the genetically inferior, leaving stronger, healthier deer to survive and multiply. Predatory action also prevents deer from decimating their food supply. They evolved to eat like crazy and multiply like bunnies. Remove the predatory check and the species does poorly.

It's never about one species. Our ecosystems are maintained through competition and diversity. It's also worth mentioning that we are animals, and omnivores at that. We have a niche in nature, and should never be ashamed to fulfill it in a responsible fashion.

Additionally, free ranging animals (both land and sea) have a healthier fatty acid profile than their domestically-raised counterparts. Too much corn meal reduces the omega-3 fatty acid content of their tissue. Humans weren't designed to eat what is on the store shelves. Corn-raised beef is a good reason why we have an epidemic of heart disease, osteoarthritis, etc., etc.

OMNSHO (scientifically-based, I might add), PeTA people need to study their biology. Their brains were raised on too much Disney and Warner Brothers, and not enough Discovery and National Geographic. Like domestically-raised beef, it just isn't good for you.



- Bill

[Valkenar]

That's a strawman attack on my point, Justin.

Well if that wasn't your point about Peta talking to tigers, then what was?

I personally would consider that a pretty weak argument. They were here before we were. They have a right to their space in the universe.

I'm not saying we do need to cull. I'm saying that *if* we do, then that makes sport hunting ethically less dubious. Your point about ecosystem balance is one example of why it might be a good idea for some deer to be killed. If so, why not have it done by volunteers who are eager to do it?

It's also worth mentioning that we are animals, and omnivores at that.

Why is that worth mentioning? In my experience, when people start mentioning that, it usually leads right into the "well we're animals so what's wrong with us acting like animals" kind of argument. Okay, so we're omnivores... and? It does not logically follow that we should eat meat just because we can. Incidentally, I happily eat meat.

[Bill Glasheen]

Why is that worth mentioning? In my experience, when people start mentioning that, it usually leads right into the "well we're animals so what's wrong with us acting like animals" kind of argument. Okay, so we're omnivores... and? It does not logically follow that we should eat meat just because we can. Incidentally, I happily eat meat.

I once knew a vegetarian who fed his Golden Retriever only animal-free food. The poor thing had diarrhea all the time.

If people want to be vegetarians, I'm fine with it. I get all over PeTA when they are intolerant of the lifestyle choices of others, and when their intolerance is indicative of an ignorance of science and biology.

While we can survive with a wide range of diets, one that includes some animal products is "optimal" when you consider:

1) It doesn't require a bunch of artificial supplements like B12 to maintain, and

2) it has a fatty acid and amino acid profile which makes for healthier, stronger humans.

I see no reason not to eat animal products just to please a PeTA extremist. I have a right to an optimal diet - particularly when it can be part of a balance of nature.

You're up their in your protected MA community, Justin. PeTA headquarters is down here. We have to put up with their schit all the time. One example of their intolerance is getting a law passed here in Virginia where every veterinarian has to report the owner, address, and breed of every dog given a rabies vaccination in the state of Virginia. Oh boy... Now the PeTA A-holes know where I live if I get a rabies shot for my dog. Because of this, dog breeders are giving their own rabies shots or getting them out of state. And people who don't want the harassment are just plain not getting them. Great... And they wonder why we have a rabies outbreak this year.



PeTA gets and will continue to get my wrath because of their own actions and choices.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

[Valkenar]

I see no reason not to eat animal products just to please a PeTA extremist. I have a right to an optimal diet - particularly when it can be part of a balance of nature.

I agree. However, I agree while realizing that I'm making the decision that the amount meat improves my life outweighs the amount of suffering that such a diet inflicts on animals. That's just how it is if you eat meat. Peta may have a lot of whackjobs, but that doesn't mean ethical to bring suffering and death to animals when there are viable alternatives. Apparently one grey-area is just how viable the alternatives are, but it certainly not a black and white issue.

Do we necessarily have a right to an optimal diet? I'm not sure we do. If, for example, we find out that eating meat is less only very very slightly better than not, or develop a meat substitute that really fills the nutritional gap, it becomes harder to justify misery infliction on the basis that we deserve to eat as healthily as possible.

One example of their intolerance is getting a law passed here in Virginia where every veterinarian has to report the owner, address, and breed of every dog given a rabies vaccination in the state of Virginia.

Isn't the purpose of this legislation to keep better track of amateur breeders? You've mentioned it before but I don't remember the details. Anyhow, I don't really care about this issue. Peta may get some crazy laws passed here and there, but I'm not sure how exactly that bears on the issue of hunting or eating meat. Just because some crazy people do crazy things doesn't mean that non-crazy people of a similar opinion ought to be dismissed out of hand.

Enjoy your thanksgiving, Bill, whether it's venison, turkey or otherwise.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm making the decision that the amount meat improves my life outweighs the amount of suffering that such a diet inflicts on animals.

You are entitled to your choices, Justin, but frankly this is a warped mindset. You completely ignore what I posted above about the BENEFICIAL role of a predator in an ecosystem.

Please re-read my posts.

By the way, do you think life should exist without pain? Sorry... Pain serves a purpose. Without it, we'd all die. Just check out anyone who has one of a number of different pain-free conditions. It's very bad news. These people don't survive without the miracle of modern medicine (developed with animal research, BTW).

Isn't the purpose of this legislation to keep better track of amateur breeders?

You're naive to their intentions, Justin.

• PeTA is against the idea of pets.
• In various state legislatures, they are combining forces with HSUS to FORCE neutering and microchipping of all pets.
• They're making it easy for insurance companies to mine these data to make it possible to deny homeowners insurance for "undesireable" breeds. I have an inside track on this, as I work for a company which mines data for P&C insurance comanies.

These kinds of Nazi tactics are at their worst around Hollywood, where we have to listen to Pamela "brains" Anderson and her PeTA propaganda. Yea, like guys are interested in Pamela because of her ... personality. So... no fertile doggies or kitties allowed in Orange County. And so what do people in Hollywood do if they want a pet? Many import them from Mexican puppy farms. Well isn't THAT just dandy...

I'm part of a network of dog breeders attempting to fight these people one state legislature at a time, Justin. I've been fighting these bozos since the 1980s when I was doing heart research. They're not to keen about science either. We're evil, mad scientists, you know, torturing your pets. And if they go to the hospital, they don't want any therapy developed with animal research. Riiiigggghhhhttttttttt!!!

- Bill

P.S. Laird says hi. He sent me some nice photos of his recent kills, and congratulates Ben on bagging his doe.

And I must say that Laird looks rather dignified in that Elmer Fudd hat!

[RACastanet]

Way to go Ben. Please bag a few more. There are so many deer running around on the back roads in central Virginia I'm afraid to take my boat up to Lake Anna. I am not a hunter but you probably know I like to wet a line for Mr. Bass.

Here is a fairly recent catch:



Rich

[TSDguy]

I once knew a vegetarian who fed his Golden Retriever only animal-free food. The poor thing had diarrhea all the time.

Sadly I'm not joking, but, about once a year the news highlights some dumb ass vegans who feed their newborn soy milk. Obviously the baby dies.

_I_ hear about this about once a year. Who knows how often it happens.

[benzocaine]

Way to go Ben. Please bag a few more. There are so many deer running around on the back roads in central Virginia I'm afraid to take my boat up to Lake Anna. I am not a hunter but you probably know I like to wet a line for Mr. Bass.

Here is a fairly recent catch:

(removed image to save space-Ben)

Rich

That's a nice fish Rich. Hopefully it didn't suffer long

On a serious note..... I'd be willing to bet that the hunters and fishermen out there have a deeper respect for nature than those PETA folk. We don't just shoot every animal we see or keep every fish we get. When we buy our license we are paying for the enviromental police to monitor/ enforce the game laws. We pay to help reintruduce species into the forest that we hunted out before regulations came to being.

The hunt club I belong to has strict regulations as to what we can harvest, because we are participating with the department of inland game and fisheries. We are limited to two doe and a buck has to have at least 4 points. After a kill we weigh the deer( mine was 75 lb dressed) , and cut out it's jawbone to send to state headquarters. There is other data we collect as well. The dept. then will use this information to help form a stronger healthier herd of deer.

High tech --Red Neck

[IJ]

"Pain" that tells us we're being injured is helpful and is different from the pain animals feel when they're raised in bad conditions or culled. Their equation makes no sense.... we can't live well without pain so we shouldn't worry about causing some to caged chickens or boxed veal to be? I don't follow. However, the PETAns have to admit its less painful to be shot, especially well shot, than to starve or be eaten.

As for PETAns being ignorant of science and biology, I haven't heard anything that suggests they are (altho they're human, so I'm sure there are a few clueless ones out there). Some people don't want to bother animals for better and simpler living--that doesn't guarantee they don't know about protein and B12 (a natural product, btw.

People can not only survive, but thrive, with a range of diets. I ate a vegetarian diet for 7 years and it didn't impair my karate, nor harm my cholesterol (LDL was 68, which is an infrequently obtained goal for heart disease patients ON powerful medications). On average, Americans would be better off with a large reduction in animal products in their food, especially beef, cornfed or not, regarding which I'm with Walter Willet, who suggets the optimal beef intake is zero. Certainly animal protein is complete which is simpler, and I'm a big consumer of fat fre dairy, chicken, and some fish now, but its hard to argue the mayans were impaired by their balanced plant proteins of corn and beans. It was sufficient for an empire.

Lastly, the best diet for a baby is breast milk, not anything else, so that was the vegans first mistake. You'll find parents raising their kids on soda and diluted formula (the companies are partly to blame for that one), but the sad thing is, these aren't too often the people having too few kids, you know what I mean?

[benzocaine]

I'm glad you mentioned the benefits of a more veggie friendly diet Ian. The more I read and learn about diet, the more attractive the below Meditteranean diet is to me. There isn't a lot of beef in that diet..but it still lets you get a hamburger once a month if you want.