Pangainoon Shorei Ryu "Free Work"?

[Kuma-de]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxGKYyKAk0

"free work by master ratzkof's student and the head of team 81 israel-sifu shai hai"

[Bill Glasheen]

Otherwise known as "jiyu kata."

The dude can jam.

- Bill

[NEB]

Really?

I'll give him credit for his creative flow, he can put moves together in quick succession...kind of like Pangainoon inspired shadow boxing. But in the end, unless I'm losing something in the video, its a bunch of flicky, powerless gesticulations that show nothing of what Uechi kata try to develope.

I know I am sounding arrogant here, but just look at Senaga doing kata ("jiyu" or quite pre-arranged) and you can see what I mean.

[Bill Glasheen]

You need to make an "apples to apples" comparison. Fixed kata are an easy way to work and work and work on the power and precision of individual moves. "Jiyu kata" is different. The closest equivalent to this is boxing's "shadow boxing." The idea is to flow from technique to technique to technique without a lot of thought of what you are doing. You will not see a boxer doing "ippon" moves when shadow boxing.

What he is doing is EXACTLY what you described. So in a way, perhaps he succeeded in spite of your disappointment.

Is there a film of Senaga doing jiyu kata?

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

What I saw of the classical uechi ,needs more attention ,an attempt to break out of the uechi egg ,but my advice would be to devote more time to sanchin .max.

[Bill Glasheen]

Tough audience today.

I'd love to take 10 "respectable" black belts and ask them to do this same exercise some time - for film. Of those 10, how many do you think would impress you?

I'd love to take 10 Okinawan masters and ask them to do the same. I know a few who would do it very well. (I'm not tellin'... ) But I'm betting most would look God-awful.

Part of the issue here is the Platonic ideal that people have in their head. I don't think this person is even trying to look like that which some would like to see.

Anybody here like The Grateful Dead? Contemporary jazz music? Does that sound like Bach, Beethoven, or Mozart?

Anyone ever heard of Benny Goodman?

Can anyone here confidently say they know what this person's Sanchin would look like? What he'd look like when sparring? How he'd perform in a street scenario? (FWIW, I could answer yes to only one of those three questions.)

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I found this definition in FightingArts.com

jiyu kata: (J) Free form, free style form. A term sometimes used to refer to a practice method in which students visualize various attacks and defend spontaneously rather than traditional kata, which uses prearranged techniques in a specific order.

I believe this is mostly right. However... I would disagree on one point.

When we do traditional fixed kata, are we always visualizing various attacks? Aren't many kata (for example Sanchin) more mind/body study than attack sequences?

Using music as an example, do lyrics always have meaning?

I’ll be the roundabout
the words will make you out ’n’ out
you change the day your way
call it morning driving thru the sound and in and out the valley

- Anderson and Howe

Makes sense, right? (NOT!) But it sure sounds good. Anyone who knows that band knows that they have been classically trained. I've never been told that, but my ears don't lie. A couple of their pieces (guitar and organ solos) give them away.

Can you tell me all about the stairway to heaven?

Sometimes when musicians play, they play for the joy of playing. There is no "terrible purpose." Some of the best martial artists I know can be the same way. Their minds wander, and sometimes the body follows. Sometimes "it" is just random junk. And sometimes it's like dreams, where we sort out all our inner thoughts and have problems solved the next day without exactly knowing how we did it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Ever seen one of these?



Mandlebrot was cranking them out for quite a while - just for grins.

Then entered the formal mathematical field of chaos. It starts with mind-numbing publications such as a study of the Lorenz equations in the Journal of Atmospheric Science.

...............

And then Madlebrots "pretty" work was rediscovered.

What's the bottom line? Some things in life can't be predicted. Pretty simple, and obvious once you cut to the chase.

Sometimes though when you're deep in the formal, you just can't quite capture the imagination.

- Bill

P.S. Mandlebrot diagrams capture the nature of a boundary between State A and State B. What they show is that under certain conditions, you never know which direction life will take you. The borderline between the two states basically isn't.

[MikeK]

Using music as an example, do lyrics always have meaning?

I’ll be the roundabout
the words will make you out ’n’ out
you change the day your way
call it morning driving thru the sound and in and out the valley

- Anderson and Howe

Makes sense, right? (NOT!) But it sure sounds good. Anyone who knows that band knows that they have been classically trained. I've never been told that, but my ears don't lie. A couple of their pieces (guitar and organ solos) give them away.
- Bill

Unless my memory is totally shot, in Yes they were mostly jazzers, only Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye and Patrick Moraz had any classical training, though Kaye and Moraz drifted to jazz early on.

[maxwell ainley]

Bill ,viewed the clip again ,I will stand by my advice .

This does not imply the practioner as failed ,on the contarary its a attempt to express ones practice in that expression ,as he ran with the water ,i felt increased work back at the source was good sound advice .Max.

[Bill Glasheen]

Unless my memory is totally shot, in Yes they were mostly jazzers, only Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye and Patrick Moraz had any classical training, though Kaye and Moraz drifted to jazz early on.

I believe you are agreeing with me, Mike. I mentioned guitar and keyboard solos which show evidence of classical training. I made that conclusion totally by my listening skills, and from my own knowledge of music. A little research shows I was pretty much on the money.

From 4 separate citations in Wikipedia...

Yes are an English progressive rock band that formed in London in 1968. Their music is marked by sharp dynamic contrasts, often extended song lengths, and a general showcasing of its members' instrumental skills. Yes uses symphonic and other so called 'classical' structures with their blend of musical styles in an innovative "marriage" of music.

Richard Christopher Wakeman (born 18 May 1949 in Perivale, London) is an English keyboard player best known as the keyboardist for progressive rock group Yes. Originally a classically trained pianist, he was a pioneer in the use of electronic keyboards and in the use of a rock band in combination with orchestra and choir

Patrick Philippe Moraz (born June 24, 1948 in Villars-Ste-Croix, Morges, Switzerland) is a progressive rock keyboard player. He is best known as the keyboardist for the progressive rock band Yes, from 1974-1976, and the Moody Blues from 1978 - 1991. He was classically trained at the Conservatory of Lausanne, but played jazz primarily before entering progressive rock and has been highly acclaimed for his virtuosity.

Neo-classical metal is a subgenre of the heavy metal music heavily influenced by classical music in its style of playing and composing[1]. It implies a very technical performance and the use of elements borrowed from classical music and/or by famous classical music composers.

Definition

Neo-classical metal is a concept distinct from neoclassicism in music. Real neoclassical music refers to the movement in musical modernism in which composers drew inspiration from the Classical period, popular during the years in between the two World Wars. This type of music can be seen as a direct reaction towards the prevailing trend of 19th Century Romanticism, and of the music of Richard Wagner in particular. Composers such as Igor Stravinsky and Paul Hindemith fused elements from the music of Classical composers, such as a return to "common practice" harmony and strict adherence to form, with their own unique "advanced" harmonic vocabularies and (perhaps most importantly) rhythmic variety.

On the other hand, Neoclassical Metal music does not restrict itself to a return to classical aesthetic ideals, such as equilibrium and formalism. Actually, it has more influences borrowed from the Baroque and Romantic periods than from the Classical period in music, which roughly spans from 1750 to 1810 and has among its notable proponents Mozart, Haydn, and the early Beethoven. Therefore, it is not a form of Neoclassicism by its traditional definition, which may cause confusion and span discussions. Neoclassical Metal treats the suffix "Classical" as roughly what most people understand as classical music- the repertoire from the Baroque to the Romantism and early Modernists-, and not as a revival of the ideals from the classical period, as it is accepted in Classical Music. Due to this confusion, many see the label "neoclassical" as improper, misleading and even pretentious. For further discussion, see the Controversy section in the end of the article.

History of the genre and influences

Although Yngwie J. Malmsteen is probably the form's best-known proponent, and the '80s decade which saw the ascension and consolidation of the genre, classical elements used in Heavy metal and Hard rock date back to Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple, Uli Jon Roth and Randy Rhoads' innovations in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and Progressive Rock musicians have, since the origin of the genre in the late '60s, incorporated classical elements in their music. Many are classically trained, such as Yes keyboardist Rick Wakeman and guitarist Steve Howe.

[MikeK]

Anyone who knows that band knows that they have been classically trained.

Not really agreeing Bill, as my trained ears hear things differently and it's not a classically trained band but a very eclectic bunch of guys that I'm listening to. As I listen to the song and hear everything from a walking bass line mixed with some standard boogie riff in the bass line, a bit of country swing, jazz and rock and roll in the guitar (Howe is self taught like most of the band), some excellent straight ahead rock drumming (which since I like the live version is being done by Alan White instead of Bruford's jazzier drumming on Fragile) and yes, some classical flourish by Wakeman (the lone classically trained musician in the line up).

My edumacated ears don't lie but they can be tricked if I'm listening for something specific and miss out on all the other things going on. So some classical influence in the band, sure, but (excepting the keyboard players some) classically trained? Nah.

But the reason I pointed out the flaw in your example is that it does point out something about our viewing of the video, we're all looking for certain things and possibly missing what else is going on. Just something I find interesting.

[Bill Glasheen]

the flaw in your example

I don't understand, Mike.

Anyone who knows that band knows that they have been classically trained.

That applies to Richard Christopher Wakeman, Patrick Philippe Moraz, and Steve Howe. I provided the citations. That would be the 2 best-known keyboardists (two generations worth) and IMO their best guitarist.

My family was classically trained in music, and we all loved Yes. (FWIW, all family members classically trained in piano. Brother graduated from UVa with a degree in music. Uncle was a professional musician, and the head of a number of choirs in the NY area.) None of us had done the research I did in the course of 10 minutes on Wikipedia, but all agreed just from listening to them that "they" (keyboardist and guitarist) were obviously classically trained.

I can't speak for what you hear. I respect that you have your own impressions when you listen to Yes. I imagine those impressions are largely formed from your own personal experiences and training.

One final note... "Yes" is a name that followed many musicians over time. I'm largely speaking of the music from The Yes Album and Fragile. Those are probably their two best known albums, although many discoverd the band from the more modern 90125. That latter album is probably what YOU think of (because you're a young thing...), although it was recorded by few of the original band members.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Steve taught himself to play the guitar, eventually performing with friends first at youth clubs and later at local pubs and ballrooms. To quote something a little more authoritative than Wikipedia.

So it's still keyboardists classically trained, but guitarist, while very far from being a slouch, was not classically trained.

My family was classically trained in music, and we all loved Yes. (FWIW, all family members classically trained in piano. Brother graduated from UVa with a degree in music. Uncle was a professional musician, and the head of a number of choirs in the NY area.) None of us had done the research I did in the course of 10 minutes on Wikipedia, but all agreed just from listening to them that "they" (keyboardist and guitarist) were obviously classically trained.

And that's my point Bill, many times we see, or hear, either what we want to or what we are trained to.

[Bill Glasheen]

I was straight-up right about the two keyboardists, Mike.

Your characterization of Steve Howe is a bit shallow. No, Steve can't read or write music. But he is an eclectic, and has played classical music.

Here are some direct Steve Howe quotes from the Q&A on his website. They put a little more meat on the bones you left us.

I've never been an advocator of practice in the general sense, I've always advocated playing things you like on the guitar as opposed to playing scales. But scales are useful and occasionally I use them, I made up my own kind of scales that I like, some are just major, minor, diminished, things like that, things I can run about with. It's not all that exciting but it does me good so I do bit of that, and mainly I just play, I'll just pick some guitar, it's good for me. Practicing something you've got to play is really exciting because only through practice, especially if you don't read music like me, will it ever sound half decent.

********

I like playing on my own, that's a nice thing. I like playing with another person. I like playing in a band, I like playing with orchestra. I've got to have everything, if you did one thing it would be boring. So I like to stretch my limitations by playing with other people in other environments. I had a rock 'n' roll foundation, I could never understand anything about harmony though I tried to read books about it, I got jazz things about harmony and I just kind of went, 'I don't get this, I don't get this one little bit but I'm going to keep playing. So I have found my harmonic thing through experience."

**********

<Referring to the "ragtime" style he does on The Clap>

I first heard that kind of guitar playing by Big Bill Broonzy and then Chet Atkins, Merle Travis, Scottie Moore, all those guys were playing picking guitars. I do it by holding a plectrum and picking with my second finger, and it's one or the nicest ways to play a guitar, it's really good fun.


<Here Steve talks about playing Vivaldi on his second solo album. >

Basically it's called 'Vivaldi's Lute Concerto in D Major.' I called it's 'Vivaldi's Concerto in D, Second Movement,' all I play is the second movement. In 99.9 concertos there are three movements so I played the second one. The other two are equally wonderful but they're uptempo. So you should find it quite easily under 'Vivaldi's Lute Concerto in D Major'.

Far from a hack, my friend.



I promise I've been taking my meds, Mike. I heard what I heard.

Lute Concerto (Steve Howe's version)

Vivaldi's Lute Concerto arr. Steve Howe

And FWIW, you make recognize this Wakeman arrangement of a Johannes Brahms piece from Fragile

CANS & BRAHMS - YesSpirit - 2006 - Mendoza - Argentina

- Bill