So Korean Boxer Punched into a Coma

[Kuma-de]

From the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSiteId=0 ... itrate=300

[Bill Glasheen]

That was a pretty wicked left hook to the temple partway through the clip. I'm willing to bet that the left hook did it, although it could also be the accumulation of blows.

Not many Uechika train to use their bodies like that in a lateral, hooking technique. It's such a gross motor coordination move, and yet uses some of the most powerful core muscles. Combine that with the head-spinning consequence to the contact, and you have the recipe for a fairly nasty KO.





Note the nice right arm Sanchin position in these photos.





Both of those "live" shots cause the head to spin in a way that results in contrecoup - the brain bouncing off the back of the skull. Our heads were designed to take straight shots, but not these rotational forces.

Con`tre`coup´
n. 1. (med.) A concussion or shock produced by a blow or other injury, in a part or region opposite to that at which the blow is received, often causing rupture or disorganisation of the parts affected.

- Bill

[mhosea]

Liddell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU64CwmYc

[JimHawkins]

Note the nice right arm Sanchin position in these photos.

So a boxer's guard is a sanchin position..??

Let's have someone use a similar boxer's guard in sanchin on a Uechi BB test and see what the test board says...

[mhosea]

Well, the elbow is in and about 1 fist from the torso. From there it's just a gross motor move (biceps or triceps) to switch between covering the ear and the "official" Sanchin position.

[JimHawkins]

Well, the elbow is in and about 1 fist from the torso. From there it's just a gross motor move (biceps or triceps) to switch between covering the ear and the "official" Sanchin position.

If we are talking the palm up position then we're talking Tan Sao.. The same position/tool is used in several systems related to Uechi including WCK..

Tan means to spread.. It receives force or the incoming weapon from inside the line and spreads it outward, often while continuing on to the target.. Structurally it is advanced, meaning out ahead of the body--it aligns the elbow with the knee/foot creating a powerful connected force and a way to intercept, close off their line of attack while aligning itself for use as a weapon to impact at close range, often under the chin..

Any similarities to these kinds of structural tools and a "boxing guard" has to do with the fact that the elbows are "in" although still not the same..

I'll see what clips might serve to illustrate later on...

[jorvik]

You can also see the "Iron body conditioning" here ......he mustn't have done a lot of it coz the left hook brought him down

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

I have both boxed and am an instructor in both Uechi and Goju. Mack Fischer - one of my fellow Uechika in the 1970s - was 2-time UVa intramural boxing champion and most valuable boxer. We both saw/see the similarities, and exploited them. Mack ate up the competition because he drew from his Uechi Ryu Sanchin fundamentals.

If we are talking the palm up position then we're talking Tan Sao..

You're not getting it. No problemo.

Sanchin dachi has both supinated and pronated hand positions. You find both in the Uechi Ryu Sanchin kata. It can be done open-handed (as in Uechi Ryu Sanchin) or closed-fisted (as in Goju Ryu Sanchin). It is with the hands spread apart or the hands together (closed-gate position) as seen in Sanchin kata. It can be done with hands out, or one hand by the head (answer the telephone) as seen in Seisan and in a boxer's slip of a hook punch.

Ultimately Sanchin is a set of principles with myriad manifestations.

Uechi Ryu is not Wing Chun. I steal schit all the time from Wing Chun because the systems have a common origin in the way apes and humans have a common origin. But humans aren't apes, and humans didn't evolve from apes. Uechi and WCQ aren't the same, and one didn't evolve from the next.

Yes, there are some principles that hold for Uechi, WCQ, boxing, and even Okinawan kobudo. These principles that express themselves in myriad subtle ways are the reasons I now am teaching Uechi Seisan and Hamahiga no tonfa at the same time.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!

IMHO, Jeet Kune Do is an example of where another individual was able to pull the principles of WCQ and Western boxing together, and express them in his own special way. It is because of this that Raffi and I have so much fun working together. FWIW, Raffi is an instructor in Uechi, FMA, and JKD. It blends pretty well for him. He can compartmentalize, but has no problem slipping from one mode to another. And I'm not surprised.

But if it makes anyone else (Ray) feel better...

That's not Uechi!!!


- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Liddell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU64CwmYc

Exactly!

It's the exact same rotational, gross motor movement done off the right rather than the left. It's counter-clockwise as opposed to clockwise rotation (as viewed from the top down). Pay little attention to the arms; it's all about what's happening from the shoulders down.

One can lead to the next. Note one leg and then the other getting loaded. (The loaded leg is the one with foot flat on floor.) We get to practice that concept in Seisan kata with the "groin strikes" - particularly with the turn. You don't see old-school Uechi Ryu doing those kinds of load shifts so overtly, but you will see Uechi Master Art Rabesa doing and teaching it like a pro. Same with Jimmy Malone. Same with Bruce Lee for that matter...

BTW, what an absolutely sweet swing! This is another good example of SSM. It reminds me a bit of little Dustin Pedroia's "big" swing of the bat. You need strong pecs and a very strong shoulder (pulled down very strongly as in Sanchin) to take the enormous forces from the impact achieved with that "long" arm. Think like what it's like to do dumbbell flies with bent elbows vs. almost-straight arms. But a great athlete can condition himself to do that.

- Bill

P.S. For a self-defense application, just open up the hand and hit with the palm-heel. Out go the lights, and no broken knuckles.

[JimHawkins]

I have both boxed and am an instructor in both Uechi and Goju.

Bill I don't care if you are a genetic hybrid of Muhammad Ali and Mr. Miagi..

Advanced structure in CMA is just that no matter how much you or anyone else fails to get that and try to make it into Western Boxing--a common phenomena because the use of such structures and use of TCMA tools are little known, used or seen ..

If we are talking the palm up position then we're talking Tan Sao..

You're not getting it. No problemo.

No Bill you STILL don't get it..apparently...

It doesn't matter which tool you refer to.. Each of those tools, used in many different systems are the same tools and use advanced structure.. A Western Boxing guard is not something that uses advanced structure--it's that simple.. The fact that most folks still don't get what advanced structure is speaks volumes re: the lack of understanding of what these styles are all about..

Sanchin dachi has both supinated and pronated hand positions. You find both in the Uechi Ryu Sanchin kata. It can be done open-handed (as in Uechi Ryu Sanchin) or closed-fisted (as in Goju Ryu Sanchin). It is with the hands spread apart or the hands together (closed-gate position) as seen in Sanchin kata.

And guess what---the position of the hand has nothing to do with this--or very little to do with it.. The story or function of the movement or position is told by the position of the elbow (normally wrong) and the wrist, then you move onto vector..

Uechi Ryu is not Wing Chun. I steal schit all the time from Wing Chun because the systems have a common origin in the way apes and humans have a common origin. But humans aren't apes, and humans didn't evolve from apes. Uechi and WCQ aren't the same, and one didn't evolve from the next.

You are missing the point AGAIN.. These tools are found in a number of systems/styles that all came from the same place.. They have the same names.. The names and the positions, shapes are the same. Some folks are in the dark on this one because they are completely unfamiliar with all your CHINESE sister styles. These folks are disconnected from the roots and family--from where these things came from.. Anyone who doubts me should simply take a serious look at those sister styles and you will understand.. Shapes are shapes and are shaped that way for structural reasons/purposes.. A shovel's purpose is clear no matter what someone might like it to be.. You want to drive a nail with it that's fine by me but you are still wrong if you go around saying that a shovel is just as validly used for driving nails..

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!

I'm still not sure what your story is.. I know what those tools are for.. If you would like to address each tool and what it's purpose is then by all means I will take you on point by point.. If you are going to just say that those tools are "whatever you want them to be" (but not what folks from related systems use them for) because that's the only way they are going to make sense to whomever, then I am going to counter you..

[fivedragons]

Posted by Bill: "and humans didn't evolve from apes."

a little creationism or what?

How about the humans of the sea?



That's the largest species of dolphin by the way, with three known cultures, including different habitat and yes, three different languages. Essentially there are three different "countries" of Orca.

Some have hypothesized that for part of our past, we were primarily aquatic in nature.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

I'm happy you have Uechi Ryu all figured out. I'm happy to know people who actually practice and teach it are "in the dark." Good thing you are here to straighten us all out.

How's the book on Uechi Ryu coming along?

the position of the hand has nothing to do with this

Good. I see you finally got my post.

the position of the elbow (normally wrong)

Do tell, Jim. I love to know how Uechika normally do their style "wrong."

Some folks are in the dark on this one because they are completely unfamiliar with all your CHINESE sister styles.

Apparently you forgot Bob Campbell who, by the way, was a student of George Mattson. Surely you've met him at our camps, right? Or Larry Tan. I KNOW you've met him at the Uechi Ryu camps, right? Or read his articles comparing and contrasting various CMA in Inside Kung Fu, right? Or how about the various tiger and crane masters who teach at camp each year? Or Kimo Wall? Surely you've met him, right? Learned the crane forms he teaches, right? And know what style of Sanchin he teaches, right?

If you are going to just say that those tools are "whatever you want them to be" (but not what folks from related systems use them for) because that's the only way they are going to make sense to whomever

Oh I get it now, Jim. So sorry I'm so slow. What we do with postures, principles, and techniques in our style is irrelevant. But what folks from "related systems" (and I presume that especially includes you and "your" system) makes sense. Got it!

You're a funny guy, Jim. I enjoyed that one! I'm not proud; like Milton Berle, I think I'll steal it.



- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Posted by Bill: "and humans didn't evolve from apes."

a little creationism or what?

No. I meant what I said, and it has nothing to do with creationism.

Humans didn't evolve from apes. Rather humans and apes have a common origin. That is what the theory of evolution (and punctuated equilibrium) teaches.

How about the humans of the sea?

Technically speaking, humans and whales also have a common origin - albeit going much, much farther back. They are both mammals.

I believe it's hypothesized that whales worked their way back into the sea. But I'm not completely familiar with that evolutionary line.

Some have hypothesized that for part of our past, we were primarily aquatic in nature.

I most certainly believe that.

We live longer when we eat food from the sea (the people of Japan are case in point), have ion content of blood similar to that in the ocean, are occasionally born with webbed feet and hands, are occasionally born with gill-like structures, etc., etc.

The path is still under debate, but the fossil record does point towards the sea as being the origin of most if not all animal life.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"Oh I get it now, Jim. So sorry I'm so slow. What we do with postures, principles, and techniques in our style is irrelevant. But what folks from "related systems" (and I presume that especially includes you and "your" system) makes sense. Got it! "
So Bill
That's why you say stuff like this
Quote
" Note the nice right arm Sanchin position in these photos. "


so boxing is a related style to Uechi?....Sorry Bill but your logic is all over the place here
wing-Chun at least comes from the same country.......but the strange thing is Bill, neither I nor Jim would think to compare Wing-Chun with Boxing, because it has it's own highly deveoped principles,concepts and stratagies................which developed from Chinese culture ........many of them would fit into uechi very well, the centre line theory, the 8 gates, minimal force for maximum reasults.......and as I've said I did some Uechi just last year, and some of the folks that I trained with were telling me that I was doing good Uechi when in fact I was doing bad Wing-Chun
Even the techniques are the same.Tan-Sau is the straight arm, fook sau is part of the Wauke.seems to me that the Okinawans forgot the uses of these tools when they changed the names to Okinawan..strange that folks in the West don't change them over to English
Quote
Apparently you forgot Bob Campbell who, by the way, was a student of George Mattson. Surely you've met him at our camps, right? Or Larry Tan. I KNOW you've met him at the Uechi Ryu camps, right? Or read his articles comparing and contrasting various CMA in Inside Kung Fu , right? Or how about the various tiger and crane masters who teach at camp each year? Or Kimo Wall? Surely you've met him, right? Learned the crane forms he teaches, right? And know what style of Sanchin he teaches, right?

why don't you let these folks speak for themselves Bill?.......personally I don't think Wing-chun has got a lot in common with Uechi. Wing-chun is a very close in system and Uechi isn't....you only have to look at the range the Okinawans spar in...I think it's a lot more like 5 Ancestors which is a medium to long range style.

[Bill Glasheen]

Speaking of Chuck Liddell...

Chuck (The Iceman) Liddell won a light-heavyweight showdown by unanimous decision over Wanderlei (The Axe Murderer) Silva at the Mandalay Bay Events Center.

Two of the three judges scored the fight a 30-27 win for Liddell. The third scored it 29-28.

Liddell (21-5) and Silva (31-8-1) came into the highly anticipated bout having each lost their last two fights. Still, the deafening crowd seemed to delight in the three-round bout.

Midway through the second round, Silva landed a big right hand that sent Liddell to the mat. Liddell recovered and answered toward the end of the round with a flurry of punches that had Silva dazed against the fence.

- AP

There's a man who walks the talk.

- Bill