This is not your father's diesel

[Bill Glasheen]

The Detroit auto show is now in swing, but information about some of the vehicles being displayed has already leaked.

I've been high on diesels ever since I took note of some of the work by Audi/VW in this arena. When in Germany a few years back, I had the pleasure of cruising on the Autobahn with 3 others my size in a VW Toureg with a V10 TDI engine. Oh, and it was at a "comfortable" 130 mph. Since then, Audi has been winning Le Mans races with a V12 TDI engine.

The secret to the stronger, cleaner, more quiet diesels is all in the fuel injection technology. Injection pressures are much higher, and the fuel is being injected most of the way through the power stroke. Some of the new Mercedes diesels are actually quieter than their gasoline counterparts. If you didn't see the tag on the back of the car, you'd never know.

Diesels show a lot of promise for several reasons.

1) Diesel fuel has very high energy density. Consequently diesels get great mileage.

2) Diesel engines run at very low rpm, and their torque is available right away. This means that diesel engines last longer, as engine life has more to do with engine RPMs than it does miles driven.

3) Biodiesel is probably much more economical to make in the U.S. than E85 from ethanol. Right now the U.S. can't even break even on making ethanol from corn. Brazil seems to be able to make it work with sugar cane, although that's not an option here. If they ever learn to break cellulose down, then switchgrass may be a viable option. But biodiesel is being made TODAY in Germany. Willie Nelson's been pushing biodiesel for a while here.

Some do-it-yourself activists actually make their own biodiesel from discarded restaurant and fast food frying oil.

With the advent of Blutec technology, diesel engines can now be made clean enough even to meet California's strict emissions requirements.

But can a diesel auto be sexy? Well...

Hi resolution photo

The Detroit-bound car is said to make 500 horsepower and 737 lb-ft (1000 Nm) of torque while boasting fuel economy of over 23 US mpg (10 liters per 100 km). Zero-to-sixty reportedly takes 4.2 seconds and the car should have a top end of 300 km/h, or around 186 mph.

Oh and that's in Audi's quattro all wheel drive. No problem in the snow, you know... (BTW, you MUST have AWD to manage that much torque. Otherwise you vaporize your tires.)

Check out the leaked video.

Audi R8 V12 TDI

- Bill

[MikeK]

Now all the Germans have to do is figure out how to build a car that will spend more time on the autobahn and less time at the dealer being fixed.

Reliable

[Bill Glasheen]

Ahh, but they have.

Diesel engines by design are one of the most reliable and long-lasting of engines. They are much simpler since they don't have any ignition systems. And they last longer because they operate at extremely low RPMs.

Ask any trucker.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Q. Dear. Mr. Ciulla, Are diesel engines as good as gasoline engines in terms of reliability? Also, I read that diesel engine cars are noisier than gas engines, is this true? I'd like to purchase a VW Golf TDI because of the better gas mileage from the diesel; however, I've never owned a diesel before and wanted to get an expert opinion on a diesel's reliability.

J.P.
Greensboro, NC


A. Well, I drive a diesel Mercedes Benz 300D every day and I love it. With the higher fuel economy and lower maintenance costs, it would take a lot to get me back into a gas powered car.

Diesel engines get better fuel economy simply because they do not need to burn as much fuel as a gas engine to get the same power. Diesel engines are also built heavier than a gas engine to sustain the added stress of the higher compression ratio. Diesel engines do not have an ignition system so you will never have to tune them up. Exhaust systems last longer because diesel fuel exhaust is not as corrosive a gasoline engine exhaust.

It is not unusual to see a diesel engine with 400,000, 500,000 and I have even seen them go as much as 600,000 miles.

- About.com

Let's also add in Audi's wins in the 24-hour Le Mans races with an engine similar to what is going to be in the production vehicle. Those Le Mans races are about reliability under extreme conditions.

The Audi R10 is a racing car prepared for sports car racing in the LMP1 class of the 24 Hours of Le Mans and other similar endurance races. The car was unveiled Tuesday, December 13, 2005 at 12:00 CET,[1] and went on to win both its maiden race at the 2006 12 Hours of Sebring and the 2006 24 Hours of Le Mans. It was the first diesel powered car to win either of those events.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Truckers drive VWs? I've owned four VW's and at the time loved working on them, now I prefer something that won't leave me stranded. If you think Audi is racing the same gear that you buy at the corner dealer, well then...

[Bill Glasheen]

You've never owned a VW TDI, and truckers drive diesel-powered vehicles.

In Europe, half of all vehicles sold are diesel, mostly because Europeans hold on to their cars much longer.

- Bill

[MikeK]

And you're driving what these days?

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm waiting for the Bluetec diesels to make it into common U.S. production. They are being sold in Mercedes as of this year.

The Jeep Cherokee is supposed to be the first "North American" vehicle with one.



Given that I don't know where I will live 5 years from now and I work for a Boston-based company, purchasing a vehicle that is legal in all 50 states makes sense.

I'm holding on to my vans with the award-winning Nissan V-6 engines as long as I can. Both now are past the century mark. The Subaru (with its boxer engine) is also in that longevity neighborhood. My spouse hasn't killed her Subie yet - an award-winning accomplishment in and of itself.

So what's your point, Mike?

- Bill

[Dale Houser]

FYI. You have to be very careful to use "good" biodiesel or you'll void your new car warranty, at least with VW. Blendings also vary.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3579244

Touareg V10 and Biodiesel:
http://www.clubtouareg.com/forums/f43/c ... 12569.html

Biodiesel locations:
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiese ... fault.shtm

TDI FAQ and Quiz:
http://tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/
http://tdiclub.com/Quiz/

My dad and his friends invested in and are now making their own Cooking Oil Diesel, but using in older Mercedes' and pickup trucks - not recommend at all for newer vehicles, or your nose.

I am waiting for the Touareg V6 Diesel to arrive stateside, and waiting.....

[Bill Glasheen]

Dale

Thanks for the info.

I'm excpecting this whole biodiesel thing to be really sketchy until the kinks are worked out of the system.

Germany now is a major grower of canola. You wouldn't believe the miles and miles of yellow-blooming canola I saw last time I rode through Bavaria. So I agree with one assessment on the forms you supplied which suggest that canola has a lower cloud point. Actually I used to store my canola oil in the refrigerator with no issues. Don't try that with olive oil.

Diesel is obviously a better proposition in in warmer climates. I don't expect to see the Canadians getting too worked up about this as an alternative.

I saw the article on the VW/Audi V-6. I'd love to see that stacked up against the engine designed by Daimler AG (formerly Daimler Chrysler). Check out these specs.



This is the engine now being sold in the Jeep Cherokee. They're going to have a low pollution Bluetec version coming out soon. In the Cherokee they cap the torque at 376 lb*ft, but broadened the flat part from 1600 to 2800 RPM.

You won't find a convential gasoline engine giving that kind of consistent pull at such low RPM.

- BIll

[Dale Houser]

This is the latest I could find from VW:
http://media.vw.com/article_display.cfm ... e_id=10094

165kw = roughly 221HP

On the ClubTouareg forums they have been talking about a new Euro-spec 240hp V6TDI - look for a post by "SLAF" who purchased one.
http://www.clubtouareg.com/forums/f43/n ... 840-2.html

This from an Australian site:
Engine
Bore & Stroke: 83.0mm x 91.4mm
Displacement: 2967cc
Compression Ratio: 17.0:1
Fuel System: Common rail diesel
Engine Block: 3.0 Litre, V6 Turbo Diesel
Maximum Power: 165kW@4000rpm
Max Torque: 500Nm@1750-2750rpm
Cylinders: 6
Valves: 4 per cylinder
Transmission: 6 speed tiptronic automatic with Dynamic Selection Program (DSP)

Range of Engines Offered in Europe for 2006, if only we had such choices:
The engine spectrum of the Touareg Exclusive Edition includes five performance levels (three diesel, two gas fuel). The entry level is a five cylinder TDI with 128 kW / 174 hp. Following as the next strongest TDI is a V6, with 165 kW / 225 hp. With 230 kW / 313 hp the V10 TDI enjoys a worldwide unique status.

As typical with VW, the answer is "we're not quite sure" what V6TDI spec will be coming to the US...

[Bill Glasheen]

The Mercedes engine appears to have a bit more torque (542 vs. 500 Nm), and over a broader RPM band.

That's good to know. The Cherokee isn't such a bad vehicle, and is much cheaper. Too bad they don't have the pneumatic suspension as an option though... That's one of my favorite features for the Touareg.

And too bad there are no plans for releasing a low-pollution V10 TDI in the future. My guess is that they'll discontinue it. What a shame. That's a one-of-a-kind beast.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

This article about diesels in the Detroit Auto Show came from today's USA Today. The theme of the article is consistent with my posts in this thread.

- Bill

DETROIT — Diesel fuel costs an average 38 cents a gallon more than gasoline, isn't available at every filling station, and in the past, has been associated with engines that clatter and smoke.

But none of those negatives dissuaded automakers from rolling out a raft of new diesel car, truck and SUV models at the North American International Auto Show here last week.

It's not just German makers anymore. Among models unveiled last week were offerings of Japanese and South Korean brands that have eschewed diesel cars in the past.

They hope Americans will warm to a new wave of diesels as quiet, clean and smoke-free as their gasoline-fed siblings. Diesels also usually offer more torque, which helps in trailer pulling.

Mercedes (DAI) spokesman Robert Moran says today's diesels also have overcome past issues with cold-weather starting. Mercedes models, he says, need no more than an extra second to start on the coldest mornings and heat up faster than gas engines once running.

The biggest attraction: Diesels offer 20% to 40% more miles per gallon than comparable gasoline engines and are available off the shelf now.

"It's here-and-now technology," says Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum. "There's no looming questions about batteries" as with gas-electric hybrids.

The looming question is whether consumers will embrace diesels. They are hugely popular in Europe, where diesel fuel costs less. But that's not so in the USA. On Friday, diesel fuel averaged $3.41 a gallon nationally, 12% more than regular gas at $3.03, according to the daily survey in AAA's Fuel Gauge Report.

"Diesel isn't cheap and isn't going to get cheaper," says Brett Smith of the Center for Automotive Research.

Diesel vehicles also are likely to cost more to buy, though a smaller premium than hybrids.

Despite question marks, automakers unveiling new diesels included:

• BMW. Planned for sale next fall are two diesel vehicles with decidedly hard-to-remember names — the compact 335d sedan and the X5 3.0sd sport-utility vehicle.
  
  The German automaker says the pair's 3-liter, 265-horsepower diesel will meet emissions rules in all states because of a new catalytic converter system and injection of the chemical urea into the exhaust. The injection system is called BluePerformance.
  
  BMW is counting on diesel's torque during acceleration to make it popular.
• Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes, one of the biggest promoters of diesel through the years, is showing off two concept versions of its diesel-powered Vision GLK small SUV.
  
  The two concepts, the Freeside and the Townside, are powered by a new-generation, four-cylinder, 2.2-liter diesel that neutralizes up to 80% of nitrogen-oxide emissions with a urea-injection system.
• Audi. To debunk the image that diesels are stodgy performers, Audi is showing off a 12-cylinder diesel concept version of its R8 sports car. The 500-horsepower engine powers the car from zero to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds and tops out at 186 mph. But don't expect to find one in showrooms anytime soon, if ever.
• Chrysler. A two-seat Jeep Renegade concept vehicle was designed as a plug-in hybrid with a twist: The rugged off-road vehicle is also a diesel.
  
  
  
  Its small Bluetec diesel engine takes over when its lithium-ion batteries run out of juice. Renegade has a 40-mile range in electric-only mode. A 115-horsepower, 1.5-liter diesel takes it the rest of its journey.
• Toyota. The Japanese giant announced last week that clean-diesel V-8s will be available "in the near future" for its full-size Tundra pickups and Sequoia SUVs. But Toyota (TM) officials are not without reservations.
  
  A surge in popularity of diesels could drive pump prices higher, warns Jim Lentz, president of Toyota's U.S. sales operation.
  
  In introducing diesels, "we're hedging our bet, because diesel is the best current solution for a full-size pickup" when it comes to fuel economy and towing power, Lentz said in an interview.
• Honda. A clean-diesel engine will become available in one of Honda's (HMC) upscale Acura vehicles next year. Unlike the larger German diesels, it won't require urea injection to cut emissions, which should result in less maintenance, CEO Takeo Fukui announced last week.
• Kia. The South Korean automaker plans to put a diesel engine in the new seven-passenger Borrego SUV by 2010. The gasoline version goes on sale this summer with Kia's first V-8 engine.

So many new diesels were unveiled at the Detroit auto show's press preview that Consumer Reports auto testing director David Champion said he felt like calling it "the diesel show."

The price of the diesels is "a bit of a question mark," but he says he has no doubt about sales: "People are going to get them."

[Bill Glasheen]

Alright you naysayers and curmudgeons out there. The votes are in, and Bill's swooning in the direction of certain concept vehicles at the Detroit auto show turned out to be a Wall Street Journal consensus.

Told you so, told you so...

(note - you need a subscription to the Wall Street Journal to make the hyperlink below work)

Readers Choose Sexy Sports Cars
In 'Build It or Bag It' Poll

January 28, 2008

The votes are in. The winners can rejoice, while the losers lick their wounds, and weigh whether to fight another day. In the end, it will come down to who has the money, and the determination, to win.

What, you thought I was talking about the presidential primaries? No, this is about the results of the Eyes on the Road "Build it or Bag it" poll, a totally unscientific effort to gauge the reaction of readers to some of the ideas for future vehicles shown at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit during the past two weeks.

It turns out that Eyes on the Road readers don't consider a petrol-conscious super sports car to be an oxymoron. By a nearly two to one margin, Eyes readers said "Build It" when asked about the idea of a fire breathing, V-12 diesel-powered Audi R8 sports car, and an ethanol-burning Ferrari 430.

Audi may or may not offer a 12-cylinder diesel in the U.S., but the company is "darn serious" about offering a wide array of diesel power in this country, says Jeff Kuhlman, who runs Audi communications in the U.S. He notes that "90% of our concepts become reality."

Audi is aiming to launch a diesel version of its Q7 sport-utility wagon late this year or early 2009, when it can get the engine certified to meet clean air standards in all 50 states. "America isn't going to be convinced that diesel is the right thing just for people movers," Mr. Kuhlman says. "We've got to come with vehicles that are still exciting and still emotional."

***

In the parlance of the auto makers, you need a flagship vehicle to sell the middle-of-the-road stuff to "normal" people. Once people see the concept in full racing bloom, they "get" what the technology is capable of - at the right price and the right dose.

What were the "bag it" votes? "Macho" minivans and gas-electric hybrid pickup trucks with car frames. That's sort of kind of like selling healthy food at McDonalds. These oxymorons on wheels just don't sell.

Here's the rest of the article.

Ferrari officials said during the auto show that they don't have plans to offer an ethanol burning 430 model, but do aim to reduce by 40% the C02 emissions from Ferrari cars by 2012. That's a proxy for better fuel efficiency.

Our survey also suggests that the public is warming up to the idea of compact, car-like vehicles bearing names formerly associated with large SUVs with military pedigrees.

The Hummer HX concept, Land Rover LRX and Jeep Renegade -- a Jeep re-imagined as a compact off-roadster -- collectively got a "build it" vote of 59% (1,759 "build it" to 1,223 "bag it" as of Friday morning.)

Woe to the marketing and product planner who takes our survey too seriously, but this result calls into question the notion, which I still hear from Detroit executives, that Americans won't accept small vehicles as substitutes for big ones. It looks like some folks are prepared to embrace a compact Hummer that runs on ethanol, or a Jeep that looks like a dune buggy.

The "Build It or Bag It" poll has bad news for Toyota Motor Corp. The Japanese auto titan's A-BAT gas-electric hybrid pickup truck concept got a big thumbs down. The A-BAT showcased not just the hybrid drive system, but also the concept of building a pickup truck on the lighter, but less rugged chassis of a car. In the current economic climate, this idea looks great on paper. Evidently it doesn't look so brilliant when translated into a physical vehicle. The A-BAT got a "Bag It" vote from 73% of those who took our survey.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Toyota try the idea of a gas-electric hybrid truck again. But it does appear that Americans who want a pickup truck want a "real" truck with a rail frame, suitable for towing or hauling loads of brick -- or imagining that you could.

What about the Nissan Forum, a concept minivan designed to show how Nissan Motor Co. might rethink its current Quest mom-mobile as more of a dad-mobile?

Well, our readers by a 65% to 35% margin say, never mind: bag it. The result is consistent with the broader market shunning of minivans. Sales in the segment fell by 18.3% in 2007 to just under 794,000 vehicles, reflecting partly the demise of minivan models from Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. But even stalwarts of the segment such as the Dodge Caravan suffered double digit declines.

Forecasting is good way to look foolish these days. But a bet on the proposition that we won't see too many new minivans – either as show vehicles or production models – might look smart, at least for a while.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Ever drive one of these