the relationship between weapons and empty hands training

[Shana Moore]

I just read a very interesting thread on another forum, and I would love to hear the opinons of the Karateka here.

The basic question was whether weapons techniques flowed from empty hands techniques and/or vice versa.

This discussion further talked about similarities and differences in basic movement, footwork, set-up techniques, etc. It also went on to discuss whether the unarmed warrior could adapt his techniques successfully to empty hand combat and whether a Karateka could adapt thier training with a weapon.

I realize you cannot put feathers on a beaver and call it a duck, but I would be interested in what worth those here find in this comparison and idea?

[Chris McKaskell]

But you can put feathers on a beaver and call it a loon. - just not a common loon.

Sorry!

I'm relatively new to weapons and don't feel qualified to address your question, but am curious and was hoping to add to it: given Uechi is often presented as a weaponless style...

how many of us do study weapons?

how many of us study them, not separately but, as part of our Uechi practice?

Not trying to hijack your thread.

Thanks,

Chris

[MikeK]

The basic question was whether weapons techniques flowed from empty hands techniques and/or vice versa.

Or the third possibility which is they both developed separately.

It also went on to discuss whether the unarmed warrior could adapt his techniques successfully to empty hand combat and whether a Karateka could adapt their training with a weapon.

I could easily see transitioning from empty hand to certain striking weapons, and back. Matter of fact it's part of what I currently train to do with improvised weapons. I like the Marine saying, one mind, any weapon. Then start looking at any object as a potential weapon.

Besides the obvious technical aspects of handling a weapon I think another part is mindset. How do you view the object in your hand; is it an extension of your body, a force multiplier? Or is it something you have to think about to use, which could slow you down?

Also don't confuse karateka with warriors. There may be some overlap but there is a big difference.

[RACastanet]

Mike said:

I like the Marine saying, one mind, any weapon. Then start looking at any object as a potential weapon.

Grin!

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Keep training and you'll get there, Shana.

• In Shaolin fighting arts, the weapons training was an important stage in empty-hand fighting development. Since a weapon (like a staff) magnifies the "error" in your movement, then it is thought to be an important part of empty hand fighting development.
• Many Okinawan fighting arts draw from the same postures when going from weapon to weapon, and weapon to empty hand (or vice versa). You should know that I presently am experimenting with teaching Uechi Seisan and Hamahiga no Tonfa at the same time because the postures and movements are identical. What is fascinating is how one adjusts the movement to compensate for having a weapon in hand vs. empty hand. Tsukenshitahaku no sai is another "Seisan-like" traditional kobudo form that I sneak in. And wouldn't you know that it was Uechi masters who taught me those two weapon forms (at one of George's camps on Thompson Island).
• In the Filipino martial arts that Raffi teaches, many "ditties" are repeated from empty hand to stick to knife. The choreography was written right from the get-go with all 3 situations in mind

This fits in with my KISS philosophy of teaching, Shana. I've always believed that less is more if you want to make things work under the Survival Stress Reflex. I like to point out similarities in postures, movements and strategies from weapon to weapon, weapon to empty hand, one empty hand art to another, etc.

When you find 2 or 3 different manifestations of the same move but in different venues, your body then is able to run with the concept and adapt it in any number of brand new ways at the moment of truth. And when you can do that, then you have "arrived".

Spend some time with Rich at the range. I guarantee you that Sanchin concepts evenutally will creep in - if you train long enough. The closed-gate posture in Sanchin is particularly important for pistol shooting.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Shana,
Something simple to keep in mind when looking at this is that targets and tool types transfer easily. Look at your empty hand tools as pointy things, blunt things, hard things, sharp things and the targets each works best with. After awhile you may see how what you know about a shoken will let you see how a kuboton, pen or small stick can be used, or how the hammer fist translates into possible ways to use a baton, branch or candle stick. (My wife was kind enough to decorate the house with lots of these kind of things ) Rich shows some nice empty hand to improvised weapon ideas during the hojo undo with the eye flicks (Sorry can't remember the uechi- term anymore ).

[TSDguy]

Nice post, Mike. I totally agree.

Sometimes people give me flak because I've studied a lot of styles, but I know that bashing someone in the face is bashing someone in the face. It doesn't really matter what you bash them with. It's the underlying principles and everything else is irrelevant.

[Shana Moore]

But you can put feathers on a beaver and call it a loon. - just not a common loon.

Not trying to hijack your thread.

no offense taken...good question!

[Shana Moore]

Some great comments all, thank you! I especially like Bill's point that a weapon would magnify any error in form.

So here is another, related, question. Are the similarities in weapon vs empty hand present because of a similar source background, commonality of application (as many of you have stated), biomechanic limitations, and/or something else?

question for MikeK:
I can see where target types and tools transfer...but would they transfer easily? Speaking as someone with little training in weapons, I would wonder how the distancing, weight, etc. would affect your application.

I guess my question is....in the middle of a fight, would it really be helpful to switch from armed/unarmed or vice versa...if you've had no practice...would the transfer be that helpful/applicable?

Hope that last question makes sense, and please excuse any "duh-huh" related to lack of experience on my part

[RACastanet]

I guess my question is....in the middle of a fight, would it really be helpful to switch from armed/unarmed or vice versa...if you've had no practice...would the transfer be that helpful/applicable?

This is more of an issue pertainng to the 'force continuum'. I'll talk about that Satrday.

Rich

[f.Channell]

Weapons magnify weakness in movements true. But weapons arts also use wider and deeper stances to support the weight of the weapon. Weapons arts also use more lunging type movements and stances. Also weapon to weapon blocking is rare. If two guys have drawn swords, there's no waiting for the first move. Premptive striking is the rule. There are 3 blocks in the first 25-30 Iaido waza I have learned.
In Iaido we use far different stances than in Uechi.
So I would say short lighter weapons transfer over, knife, stick, Kubotan, sai. But longer heavier weapons, staffs, swords, mace, etc..... Not so much.

My personal choice cross training is to keep my weapon and grappling and my Uechi separate. although they certainly affect each other at some level regardless.

I have a friend training in western sword arts and it's fascinating how they integrate grappling and takedowns with weapons.

F.

[Van Canna]

The very best blend of empty hands to weapons concepts [within a system] I have seen, is in the performance of Wes Tasker's practice of Pekiti-Tirsia.

All the movements and concepts are designed to work the same with weapons and without.

Interesting where the empty hands strike lands on the follow through to instinctively access the weapon.

But then, as Rich points out, the realities of the streets go to the ‘force continuum’ where ‘weapons’ are defined differently.

This is what the police trains in…and something the well rounded TMA student should become proficient in, with the transitioning from empty hands to dedicated and general improvised weapons as needed for survival.

It is also mostly a mindset in need of cultivation.

[JimHawkins]

All the hand/arm techniques in Wing Chun are essentially the same as and intended for use with the knives--the concepts, two/three simultaneous actions, center control, continuity, position, etc, apply. Some of the moves even feel more natural with the slashing effect of a blade, etc. I find the moves naturally translate and it feels just as good with sticks.

The reality as I understand it anyone trained in this or most any other system, back then, who might encounter any danger was sure to be armed with weapons--not planning to use empty hands unless something went very awry...

But, of course, that's not 'karate' per se...

[jorvik]

I don't think there is any real crossover between weapons and unarmed systems.or if there is it is limited and accidental. To be able to fight with a weapon you have to really know the weapon e.g. the Samurai and their swords. Here is a clip of a guy who is into swords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhFtrmci ... ed&search=

look at the time he devotes to it.there is a little jiu-jitsu in it as well, but it all pertains to the sword.
Jim Bowie wasn't known for his unarmed fighting techniques either

[TSDguy]

I think you're right about swords, but the more 'personal' weapons (and the ones that are more likely to be found in an average room!) do have crossover; knives, sticks, battons, nunchucks, etc. These can be made out of just about anything, and, IMO, are mostly just extensions of your arms/fists. You hit someone with the butt of a stick in the exact same way you hit them with a hammerfist.