Back in the early 7o's when I first started karate training we had brawls in the ring. Lot's of bloody faces, etc. Here is a recent clip that shows how a referee can let things get a little out of control, even himself:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=106_1205286116
Ref Disqualifies Self
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Ref Disqualifies Self
Jim Prouty
New England Budo Center
New England Budo Center
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Stryke
Hi Marcus, Not too dangerous!!-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Holy crap!
The thing that made me play the video over about half a dozen times was trying to see what the ref did that caused the initial "drop." Wow... good one! The rest is so obvious that it needs no explanation.
For example... I had a situation in New England where one of my students was going up for shodan. He had done 4 years of college wrestling before ever walking into my dojo, and did his time in my dojo before I sent him up. Steve was "scary good." He didn't need Uechi; Uechi benefitted from his presence.
In the sparring match for his shodan test, Bobby Bethoney yelled "Stop!" and my student Steve relaxed. His opponent then proceeded to grab him and kick his legs out from underneath him. It took an observant individual with a good view to hear Bobby's command, and note the sequence of events. When Steve's partner reached down to lend him a hand, Steve slapped it away. And you know what? I totally agreed with his response. F the test. You operate outside the rules, then you reap what you sow.
I was proud of Steve for doing nothing more than that simple gesture. But I'm sure he had been-there-done that. His experience showed. He finished his test with no further display. Bobby Bethoney said nothing. Nothing needed to be said.
It's difficult to know what the rules were. But in watching this thing from beginning to end, the dark-gi guy is flailing a lot. There wasn't a lot of control in his technique.
Rules are rules. You fight within the boundaries that are set, or... There was a lot of referee chatter going on through the match. My take is that it wasn't one single thing, but rather the accumulation of a number of transgressions that made the ref "lose it." There's absolutely no excuse for his behavior, but... I understand the sequence of events.
The ref was engaged in the kind of technique that we only talk about in our kata, or dream about doing when most really aren't up to it. The dark-gi fellow very easily could have been killed - particularly with the final stomp-kick to the head. Your humor, Marcus, hits home. There's a real difference between what these competitors were doing and what the ref did and was capable of doing. There's more than just technique involved.
- Bill
The thing that made me play the video over about half a dozen times was trying to see what the ref did that caused the initial "drop." Wow... good one! The rest is so obvious that it needs no explanation.
I'm not so sure. You're missing a lot here.mhosea wrote:
I still think white-gi must be a real jerk and for sure a sore loser.
For example... I had a situation in New England where one of my students was going up for shodan. He had done 4 years of college wrestling before ever walking into my dojo, and did his time in my dojo before I sent him up. Steve was "scary good." He didn't need Uechi; Uechi benefitted from his presence.
In the sparring match for his shodan test, Bobby Bethoney yelled "Stop!" and my student Steve relaxed. His opponent then proceeded to grab him and kick his legs out from underneath him. It took an observant individual with a good view to hear Bobby's command, and note the sequence of events. When Steve's partner reached down to lend him a hand, Steve slapped it away. And you know what? I totally agreed with his response. F the test. You operate outside the rules, then you reap what you sow.
I was proud of Steve for doing nothing more than that simple gesture. But I'm sure he had been-there-done that. His experience showed. He finished his test with no further display. Bobby Bethoney said nothing. Nothing needed to be said.
It's difficult to know what the rules were. But in watching this thing from beginning to end, the dark-gi guy is flailing a lot. There wasn't a lot of control in his technique.
Rules are rules. You fight within the boundaries that are set, or... There was a lot of referee chatter going on through the match. My take is that it wasn't one single thing, but rather the accumulation of a number of transgressions that made the ref "lose it." There's absolutely no excuse for his behavior, but... I understand the sequence of events.
The ref was engaged in the kind of technique that we only talk about in our kata, or dream about doing when most really aren't up to it. The dark-gi fellow very easily could have been killed - particularly with the final stomp-kick to the head. Your humor, Marcus, hits home. There's a real difference between what these competitors were doing and what the ref did and was capable of doing. There's more than just technique involved.
- Bill
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Stryke
Hey Bill , glad you understood the humour , it was exactly the point .
nothing like attacking the primitive brain , one of my favourite things to do from the clinch .
the referee really didnt have any control at all in the match , there was clearly an escalation in attitudes , anyone whos done a bit of those can see the signals/attitude , and when theres two competitive attitudes the ref becomes very important for setting boundarys .
one of the nastiest incidents I ever saw was at a comp in Melbourne Australia , where in the heavyweight division final an Australian chap was fighting a huge guy from Uzbekistan ... well the Aussie scored the point and immediately dropped his guard .
Someone should of told him the opponent wasnt convinced , one spinning back kick later he was awarded his victory via DQ and probably received his trophy in hospital after being stretchered of with seemingly a broken jaw .
now everyone there was to blame , and it was a clear case of not having the correct boundrys , enforcement , and attitude on everyones part .
slow ref , poor attitude on the victims part , and to be honest the real victim was the attacker IMHO .
the Bright side is I got to fight him in the team event and even though he probably had 60 pounds on me I scraped through with only a bleeding nose to win (glory days huh
)
it would be very easy to put bad will and malice at the attacker , but the intensity of these things is easilly overlooked by outsiders . Thats why there is so much responsibility in good officiating .
I have been on the receiving end of illegal tactics and force , and will admit have replied in kind , knowing I had a warning up my sleeve , while I`m sure many will frown on it , it is the nature of the game and while not to be necessarrilly applauded it is what happens when extremely competitive athletes get caught in the moment , some are young and strong willed and hot headed like I was .
an official must always make his presence felt , the competitors must never be able to think of him as a spectator .
nothing like attacking the primitive brain , one of my favourite things to do from the clinch .
the referee really didnt have any control at all in the match , there was clearly an escalation in attitudes , anyone whos done a bit of those can see the signals/attitude , and when theres two competitive attitudes the ref becomes very important for setting boundarys .
one of the nastiest incidents I ever saw was at a comp in Melbourne Australia , where in the heavyweight division final an Australian chap was fighting a huge guy from Uzbekistan ... well the Aussie scored the point and immediately dropped his guard .
Someone should of told him the opponent wasnt convinced , one spinning back kick later he was awarded his victory via DQ and probably received his trophy in hospital after being stretchered of with seemingly a broken jaw .
now everyone there was to blame , and it was a clear case of not having the correct boundrys , enforcement , and attitude on everyones part .
slow ref , poor attitude on the victims part , and to be honest the real victim was the attacker IMHO .
the Bright side is I got to fight him in the team event and even though he probably had 60 pounds on me I scraped through with only a bleeding nose to win (glory days huh
)it would be very easy to put bad will and malice at the attacker , but the intensity of these things is easilly overlooked by outsiders . Thats why there is so much responsibility in good officiating .
I have been on the receiving end of illegal tactics and force , and will admit have replied in kind , knowing I had a warning up my sleeve , while I`m sure many will frown on it , it is the nature of the game and while not to be necessarrilly applauded it is what happens when extremely competitive athletes get caught in the moment , some are young and strong willed and hot headed like I was .
an official must always make his presence felt , the competitors must never be able to think of him as a spectator .
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Stryke
while that last post may be over thinking
my first reaction was , you have three guys who take themselves and martial arts entirely too seriously .
now remember folks this is a head kick
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f1_1182174292
my first reaction was , you have three guys who take themselves and martial arts entirely too seriously .
now remember folks this is a head kick
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f1_1182174292
What greater emotion or in bred stimuli other than a parent protecting a child? Remember, the Ref was the kid in the white gi father.
Bill, did you see the slow-motion version? I recently found it on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg09bGacp0A
Bill, did you see the slow-motion version? I recently found it on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg09bGacp0A
Jim Prouty
New England Budo Center
New England Budo Center
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Stryke
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
Yeah me too..Bill Glasheen wrote: The thing that made me play the video over about half a dozen times was trying to see what the ref did that caused the initial "drop."
Almost looked like he was choking the guy and shaking him.. Was it something else?
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Stryke
IMHO he just isolated the necks ROM , and impacted the back of the neck jarring the brain stem , easiest way to KO I know of . Add in some compliance and backwards movement from a throat grab also an easy way to take someone backwards ...
to try wack yourself on the back of the neck till you go fuzzy 
but we all see what we know , what did other folks see ?
to try wack yourself on the back of the neck till you go fuzzy
but we all see what we know , what did other folks see ?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
That's pretty much what I saw, Marcus.
There are possible subtle aspects to it that could have enhanced what he did, such as the actual grip on the throat he used before whacking from behind. If he knew what he was doing, he could have been stimulating both the carotid sinuses.
But he really didn't have to be that subtle. He's keeping the head and neck where he wants with that "V" grip. A shot to the cervical spine or the base of the skull with his ridge hand will do it.
The final 2 blows were far from subtle.
- Bill
There are possible subtle aspects to it that could have enhanced what he did, such as the actual grip on the throat he used before whacking from behind. If he knew what he was doing, he could have been stimulating both the carotid sinuses.
But he really didn't have to be that subtle. He's keeping the head and neck where he wants with that "V" grip. A shot to the cervical spine or the base of the skull with his ridge hand will do it.
The final 2 blows were far from subtle.
- Bill
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Hey MarcusBill Glasheen wrote:That's pretty much what I saw, Marcus.
There are possible subtle aspects to it that could have enhanced what he did, such as the actual grip on the throat he used before whacking from behind. If he knew what he was doing, he could have been stimulating both the carotid sinuses.
But he really didn't have to be that subtle. He's keeping the head and neck where he wants with that "V" grip. A shot to the cervical spine or the base of the skull with his ridge hand will do it.
The final 2 blows were far from subtle.
- Bill
Hi Bill,
You said:
Maybe he missed the rules meeting prior to the tournament??The final 2 blows were far from subtle.
Jim Prouty
New England Budo Center
New England Budo Center
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Stryke
I still think he was going for the tornado kick but the guy was to lazy to get up of the ground for him ... I mean what can you doMaybe he missed the rules meeting prior to the tournament??
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f1_1182174292
KIAAAIIII !!!!
