Goju + Uechi Ryu Seisan Bunkai

Kuma-de · Post by **Kuma-de** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:42 am

Tape of Shihan Tony Annesi of Framingham presents his concepts of the Seisan kata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1SVRvFEIqw

From his web site:

Our required forms begin with typical Japanese kata, reminiscent of Shotokan. In upper black belt levels, however, one may add forms from Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and Kamishin-ryu. Each student is required to understand how to analyze their forms and how to apply variations of each movement or each form.

http://www.bushido-kai.net/hombu/karate.html

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:40 am

Excellent concepts and insights into the applications. Personally I'd like to see a little more realism in the bunkai.

Compare this for realism to some of the seniors in uechi or other style. To me bunkai is all about making the kata and the response look and feel realistic.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:25 pm

Our required forms begin with typical Japanese kata, reminiscent of Shotokan. In upper black belt levels, however, one may add forms from Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and Kamishin-ryu. Each student is required to understand how to analyze their forms and how to apply variations of each movement or each form.

Why bother with the kata at all, why not just teach good applications and let the students play with them?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:00 pm

MikeK wrote:
Why bother with the kata at all, why not just teach good applications and let the students play with them?

Why bother with playing published or pre-written music at all, Mike? Why not let people just jam?

Why bother with textbooks in college? Why don't we just let people come to class and debate?

Why bother reading the literature in medicine? Why don't we just let people figure things out on their own with their patients?

Why bother reading books? Why not just watch the movie, or have people write their own?

Why bother thinking? Why don't we just memorize everything we need to know?

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:13 pm

Josann wrote:
Excellent concepts and insights into the applications. Personally I'd like to see a little more realism in the bunkai.

Compare this for realism to some of the seniors in uechi or other style. To me bunkai is all about making the kata and the response look and feel realistic.

I agree, Josann. The attacks are the same lame step punches or grabs that we've all become accustomed to when watching karate applications (of doom).

I do like a few of his creative applications, and think some of them should be highlighted as "primary" applications. It's particularly nice given my knowedge of both Seisans. I also like how he starts while standing in a natural stance. I've started requiring that for a few "stations" in our own Uechi Seisan Bunkai.

- Bill

Mary Chant · Post by **Mary Chant** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:29 pm

Why bother with the kata at all, why not just teach good applications and let the students play with them?

Well, call me a romantic (I've been called much worse

), but what about the Arts part of Martial Arts? My interest in study is not exclusively practical combat readiness. In fact, I understand that there may be more direct routes to achieving that goal than my study. That is fine. Understanding the limited focus of my study when compared to many others, I am also equally aware of my potential limitations. But, wow, do I love what I do! And, I am in a better position to successfully avoid conflict or prevail because of my study, kata and all.

And, did I say how much I love doing it?!

Mary Chant

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:44 pm

This is one of the better books that I was asked to read in high school.

It never ceases to amaze me how well the Greeks captured the timeless soap operas of life in the simple stories of their gods.

Like a good kata, I find myself constantly stumbling on its lessons, and referring back to it. Without that reference in my brain, I wouldn't see nearly as much in life as I do.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:43 pm

Imagine where several generations of writers would have been without the common themes talked about by the Greeks thousands of years ago.

I really like this piece.

Camus and Hemingway: Suicide, Sisyphus, and the Leopard

Good kata are the same way. The lessons are timeless, and they can bring generations of pracitioners through some deep thought and poignant observations.

- Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:10 am

Mary Chant wrote:Well, call me a romantic (I've been called much worse ), but what about the Arts part of Martial Arts?

Not to stop your romanticism Mary, but the word "art" in Martial Art is closer in meaning to skill rather than having to do with aesthetics.

These days I'm all for kata that is aesthetic, that is used to develop movement and that is just plain enjoyable to do. I think those things are really great. I also think that kata aren't the best way to learn applications.

BTW, It's good to love what you do.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:22 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:Why bother with playing published or pre-written music at all, Mike? Why not let people just jam?

etc, etc, etc...

It's actually a very simple question, why bother with the kata at all, why not just teach good applications and let the students play with them?

Are you saying that those who don't do kata can't think?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:35 am

MikeK wrote:
Are you saying that those who don't do kata can't think?

I'm saying that those who do kata have a way to organize all their mixed martial art material in patterns that they can continue to practice over time. It's a way to work on both fundamental principles of martial movement as well as concepts that transfer from one martial venue to the next.

One can also practice kata without a partner, and long after the person has retired from full contact activity.

I'm not stopping anyone from choosing their own path. But when asked, I will gladly explain to someone how and why kata training is a smart, thougtful, and efficient approach to martial arts.

It's no different from any physical or mental discipline where one chooses to invest time in the fundamentals. Years after I finished my academic work, I am frequently marveling at my ability to draw on things taught to me decades ago. I see approaches to work faster than many of my peers because my professors taught me well. Technology changes by the day, but the science and math that drives it never changes.

- Bill

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:56 am

MikeK wrote: It's actually a very simple question, why bother with the kata at all, why not just teach good applications and let the students play with them?

Both are valid.. However IMO and experience IF the forms have a direct connection to the KIND of movement and 'cooperation' of various body parts and position that we will use in performance of the skill, then they are useful for honing these things. We know that practice does not make perfect but rather perfect practice makes perfect.. If the forms reinforce perfect execution of motion and position, etc, then they offer any level of student the chance to *perfect* these basic elements in a low stress manner.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:38 am

Forms are also a great point of reference. So if you are teaching a technique, you can easily just say:

"Do this."
"Not working?"
"Okay, pull/push this way, like it's done in seisan."

It's a good point of reference for teaching a technique. FOr instance, sanchin turning alone is great for an arm throw or even a headlock throw.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:55 am

but what about the Arts part of Martial Arts?

you can have the art without the martial but then youd have to be doing it purely for creative movement , I think they call that dance

the more you move focus towards the dance , the less martial it becomes

but theres nothing wrong with dancing , but it is impossible to understand the movement and the art as intended , unless trained for its intention .

and dancing possibly has as much potential for character development also IMHO

just different stuff for different folks

I personally like kata just as a study of movement , but of strong co-ordinated practical movement , ascetics should be just a given to effeceincy of movement .

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Stryke, I agree.

BTW Marcus, can you tell which kata this young lady got her footwork from at the beginning of her video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IP3TF97-4g

The guy I train with besides his other skills is also a badass two stepper. A while back he taught a gal, who was also a two stepper, the martial applications of the dance. I remember him calling out "grapevine" (which is a dance step) and something else that I can't remember because the young lady was landing some spinning elbows into my chest.

So does that make the Two Step a martial art?

And good points Adam, Bill, Jim & Mary.