What are advanced techniques in your art of choice?

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:15 am

So what makes up the higher level techniques of your style?

What material does a black belt know and do that separates him (or her) from the kyu?

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:59 am

Interesting topic.

We have no belts, or didn't at that time at the old Chinatown school.. But I can approximate BB level in terms of content and level in the training.

Level 1 (pre chisao)

The lower 'kyu' folks are focused on the first form and learning basic tools, the energy that goes with this form and how to change from one tool to another based on the energy and position given by the partner.. There is no footwork per se introduced yet, nor kicks, instead the students are expected to work rooting the basic stance to make and manage energy.

At this level, and funny but this is sometimes criticized--there is NO (striking) CONTACT between partners.. 98% of all work is close range partner based and does not involve use of any patterns, and instead cycle through changes with natural and varied timing..

Level 2 (starting chisao)

The upper 'kyu' folks are focused on the first and second form and learning how to apply basic tools, the energy that goes with them in random applications.. At this level students learn how to move, using the footwork and use both arms and body together to execute attacks and manage the partner's energy and attacks. Kicks are introduced but not used in alive partner work very much.. At this level contact is allowed and expected but generally kept moderate. 98% of all work is close range partner based and at this level no moves, offensive or defensive use of any fixed patterns or timing..

Level 3 (BB) (chisao, chigerk)

At this level folks work the first, second and third forms and start the dummy... (that's all the empty hand sets but no weapon sets)

At this level all partner work is free, highly dynamic fast and confident. Contact is hard to the body and partner dependent for head, face and neck. The student should have full competency all the basic tools and basic techniques.. 90% of all work is close range partner based and does not involve use of any patterns at all.. All main weapons and concepts (lin sao di da, lut sao jik chung, doi ying--see kuen kuit) should be in play and powerful, palms, fists, chops and elbows, as well as controls, traps, centerline returning, clearing, pinning, etc.. Use of kicks is there but legs are more often used to 'trap' the partner's legs.. Most training is still inside work but entry work is now functional and in focus.

To be valid in training, attacks must release good power (land) and through use of energy and position the body and arms are expected to issue sufficient control during an attack to facilitate subsequent "release" or hits (landing) on the partner, while, under full resistance--this is called Fan Sao, or "following hands". Attacks where only one shot lands are considered failed attacks or attempted attacks, unless you "send them away" which means you launch them into the air or knock them down. Counters to same have the same requirements--full control via attacks must be shown.

New to this level is the introduction to various entries, footwork, a focus on short range power or ging; familiarization and training escapes from bad positions or conditions and an introduction to sticking leg work..

That covers it.. The answer here is the advanced moves are just the basic moves actually used with skill..

Yes an advanced beginner..

New stuff is the advanced stuff... Always is...

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:50 pm

The highest level in my art is beating the cr8p out of somebody who is bigger,faster and stronger than I am

........I'm nowhere near that level yet

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:21 pm

i have practiced a few arts where for every color belt change there is a new teachnique to learn. so the higher up you go the more techniques you have learned. i have found this method to be empty in the end, if your mind is solely on learning the "next thing". students eventually get deluded and leave. on the other side, in uechi ryu i could say loosely that 90% of the techniques could be memorized with in a year but the depth of understanding and the application continues for years and years.

an example would be the last moves in konshiwa kata. slide in, circle block with left hand, shoken strike with right hand, slide back.
for the beginers i would teach these 4 actions with a four count cadence.
1, slide in.
2 left circle block,
3 right hand shoken.
4 slide back.
for a black belt i would expect them to do the same 4 movements in a 2 count cadence.
1, slide in and circle block and right shoken ,,,,,all timed so that as the forward foot plants on the ground the circle is compleated and the shoken hits the target.
2, then slide out seamlessly without lossing balance ( this is hard to explain its a backward movment with a forward feeling)
all this done with speed, power, and accuracy.

steve

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:09 pm

For certain types of point sparring in styles I've studied, there are definitely very difficult techniques that for the most part only black belts are going to be able to pull off. Spinning roundhouses or hopping point-black range back kicks are insanely difficult to use effectively, and if you're not athletic, probably hard to even do at all.

But as far as the typical stereotype of a martial art, as in brawling, I don't think there should be any advanced techniques, only 'advanced' concepts.

stage 1: learn to throw a hook; learn to throw an uppercut

stage 2: learn when. For example, when weaving a punch, the follow up is a good time for a hook and/or uppercut

stage 3: fighting/sparring/chaotic drills. Spar only with hooks and uppercuts or something.

Pretty similar to Jim's list I guess, although I still disagree that there is anything hidden in martial arts that only the masters know.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:51 am

No 'advanced concepts' in WCK just the ones needed.. All concepts are trained throughout the study, since they are all equally a part of the system...

TSDguy wrote: I still disagree that there is anything hidden in martial arts that only the masters know.

Really?

Be specific. Start another thread if you like.

I can tell you point blank that *system information* was intentionally not passed by Ip Man to his modern day students and likewise stuff his students didn't pass or passed very selectively..

This is not unusual, there have been lots of other folks who have come out of the closet, the Daito Ryu guy comes to mind..

And this is about intentional omission--then you have the level of competence and human error to consider in terms of what is passed, how it's passed, or not..

It's just typical human behavior not a magic bullet...

"But it doesn't matter what's passed or not--just fight"

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:07 am

But you see, the information that wasn't passed from Ip Man, et al... was never lost.

It was just passed on by other people.

People that actually used their bodies as weapons, not as some kind of retarded lineage, guarded by five people on the planet.

What a joke.

More like a phantasm.

Or maybe a ghost of the overactive imagination.

Maybe some kind of stereotype?

What if I told you that Irish people just naturally know how to kick ass, and that we only study kung fu to practice what is already in our genes?

Hey Jim, who do you think would win, Cuchulain, or Ip Man?

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:09 am

Maybe you'd like to pit the infighting skills of the scandinavians with the eskimos, or maybe we could find out how Ip Man would fare against an Apache?

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:09 am

fivedragons wrote: But you see, the information that wasn't passed from Ip Man, et al... was never lost.

It was just passed on by other people.

I'm working in the lucid realm of facts and examples..

If you care to go there by all means until then... Drink up!

fivedragons · Post by **fivedragons** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:21 am

Thanks Jim, I think I'll have another beer.

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:55 am

fivedragons makes a good point, regardless of how it reads. I think it would be a lot easier to list examples of secret hidden techniques that no one else knows that it would be to list things that every fighting civilization in the entire world knows because they've been fighting for 120,000 years as modern humans.

I have to warn you, it's going to be quite difficult to convince me a select few dozen kung fu masters have a secret knowledge of how to maim someone that the entire world population of almost 7 billion with professional soldiers and organized crime* doesn't already know. Maybe they have a handy training tip, that they could put in an advice column, I'll give you that.

* Edit: I'll throw in physicians too.

"I have detailed files of human anatomy."

"I'll bet. Makes you a more efficient killer, right?"

"Correct."

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:57 pm

I think the term "secret knowledge " is a bit out of place, but certainly I have been taught things that are not widely known. One move in particular I believe has increased my fighting ability 100 fold.....but you have to find styles with real skill in them, where the kata has a purpose and were any Tom dick or Harry can't come up and give you their version of it. You have to bypass all the strong arm stuff and look for things not based on strength etc.....look at Gracie Jiu jitsu, you could call that secret knowledge if you want, it was until the Gracies started to popularise it.
if you take the Chinese as the real guardians of secret knowledge, I can tell you, selfish as it may seem they are quite happy to die and have their knowledge die with them...rather than pass it on to folks they think unworthy..I never used to appreciate that viewpoint but now I totally agree with it

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:05 pm

I don't agree BJJ is 'hidden knowledge'. There are a LOT of grappling styles through out the entire world. JJJ is obviously what BJJ is based on, it's just that BJJ specializes in a certain aspect of it. I wouldn't expect a Uechi fighter to keep up with a TKD fighter in a kicking only match, but TKD does not have any 'secret kicks'. Some are more eccentric than a 'normal' application of the kicks but those types of kicks are not anything that a) is applicable to street fighting or b) something you couldn't come up with on your own if you decided to only compete in Olympic style TKD.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:20 pm

Hey I'm not disagreeing with you

...I don't believe in "secret" techniques or even advanced techniques per se.What I do believe in though is Techniques that are not widely practised or used or sometimes even seen and this is why they become secret. Closer to home if you follow boxing look at the impact Mike Tyson had, he was a relatively little guy fighting great big guys, but he had been supberly trained to defeat them.and for a good long while he did.

Now if you look at martial arts you will find folk developing a specific approach to martial arts so that they can use that approach to defeat people, over time the techniques can develop,so you get folks being good at pushing or sticking hands or other skills..and as these are practised sometimes over 100 of years you get a body of knowledge developing.....and to the majority of people this knowledge is Secret and it can appear almost magical

In recent years this knowldege has been lost or diluted and you get what Jim calls the classical disconnect .........or you end up with folks just doing folk dances and scrabbling around trying to find explanations for why they are doing it, new bunkai fighting moves etc. When you get to that stage you may as well go back to doing kick boxing because that is in effect what you are doing.....only much less effectively

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:36 pm

Ya, I'll buy that... no secrets, just personal idiosyncrasies that don't get passed along. Like I joked about training tips for an advice column. Of course the solution for not know what a kata means is to scrap it altogether and go with the infinite amount of info on what works in combat that hundreds of millions of people have accumulated... which is what the kata was trying to teach you in the first place. So it's irrelevant.