TKD Controversy at the Olympics

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Glenn
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TKD Controversy at the Olympics

Post by Glenn »

TKD Controversary at the Olympics
Apparently TKD is in danger of following softball in being cut as an Olympic sport.
Lopez takes fight to taekwondo federation
By Charles Robinson, Yahoo! Sports

AP - Aug 22, 10:48 am EDT

BEIJING – With taekwondo already rumored to be on the brink of Olympic elimination, the sport was doing everything it could to avoid even the slightest shock of controversy.

On Friday, it was struck by lightning.

In a chaotic episode that might ultimately prove to be the tipping point to Olympic doom, American two-time defending gold medalist Steven Lopez was eliminated from gold-medal contention on a controversial referee’s decision. Lopez would go on to win bronze in the 80-kilogram weight class, but not until after his team leader, Herb Perez, had filed a protest and then ripped the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) for intimidation and gross mismanagement of the sport’s rules and oversight.

“When (poor judging) happens to you, you’re told to shut up and not say anything because of what will happen to you, or what will happen to the sport,” Perez said. “If this is truly what taekwondo is about, maybe taekwondo shouldn’t be in the Olympics. Maybe they should fix it.”

Perez was furious after a string of events that began when Lopez – who hadn’t lost a match since 2002 – was docked one point in his quarterfinal match against Italy’s Mauro Sarmiento. A referee determined Lopez had used a “cut kick,” which is essentially kicking away an opponent’s blow below the waist. Perez maintained that Lopez had merely raised his left leg in defense on the foul, and Sarmiento had kicked into Lopez’s leg in an attempt to draw a point deduction.

Lopez’s lost point cut his 2-1 lead into a 1-1 tie in the third and final period of the match. He eventually lost in sudden-death overtime.

What came next had the WTF scrambling on the defensive as Perez came out with some serious allegations. First, he said the protest wasn’t properly handled – that the Olympic Competition Supervisory Board didn’t respond for 45 minutes, well outside of the allotted 15 minutes typically allowed. Second, Perez said they were given little explanation as to why their protest had been deemed “unacceptable.”

“Unacceptable could mean anything from we didn’t file the papers properly to we didn’t use the right color pencil,” Perez said. “… Under the WTF competition rules, we should have been notified about the decision, the criteria, the methodology used, what evidence was presented,and what referees were reviewing it. We were not.”

But that wasn’t even the bombshell. Perez said that, in a June taekwondo conference, the heads of the 25 teams which attended were asked to sign an agreement not to file any protests at these Olympic Games in hopes of avoiding a controversy that could further put the sport’s Olympic future in jeopardy.

“We were manhandled,” Perez said. “We were threatened not to protest at this event. I think that needs to be said. We were made to sign a document not to protest for the betterment of taekwondo. It was a very big thing. There was a table, you went up to the table, (and) you signed the document. You signed it in front of the secretary general (of the WTF) and you gave him the document.”

Perez said he was approached again by WTF officials on Friday after his protest was denied. This time, Perez said, they were asking him not to speak to the press.

“I was asked to compromise (again) five minutes ago,” he said. “They said, ‘Don’t tell anyone.’ The head of the WTF came to me and said, ‘Don’t speak to the press.’ The secretary general said, ‘Don’t do this.’ (Secretary General Jin Suk) Yang and (WTF president Chungwon) Choue said, ‘Herbert, don’t do this. Think about the future.’ ”

The WTF’s director of public relations, Seok-Jae Kang, vehemently denied coaches had signed a “no protest” pact, calling the claim “nonsense.”

“It is not an agreement. I would call it a resolution,” Kang said. “A resolution on fair play. … It was ‘Do your best to ensure fair play and judging.’ Appealing is up to them. It’s their right and their rule. They can appeal.

“Ask him the right wordings (on what he signed).”

Kang said officials from the WTF were not prepared to respond on Friday night, but pointed to a June release on the body’s Web site, which touted “Participants in WTF Olympic Coach Seminar Adopt Resolution on Fair Play.” The release lists some lines from a document signed by coaches at the event, including an agreement that signees would “respect and accept the judgment and decisions of the refereeing and technical officials in all taekwondo competitions.”

Clearly, Perez believed that to mean that coaches were being leaned upon not to protest at the Olympics. But Kang said that interpretation was “a matter of opinion.” Another coach, Iran’s Kiarash Bahri, didn’t attend the June meeting, but he said he was never told explicitly not to protest.

“The WTF wanted everybody to have more self-control, and if they want to make a protest, take the correct procedure actually, not to jump up and down and make a ruckus, raise a lot of noise,” Bahri said. “Take the correct procedure to go about it, file the complaint and then they’ll decide. But it wasn’t like, ‘Don’t make a protest.’ ”

The ugliness marred an otherwise positive story for taekwondo, which had seen a generous amount of coverage as Lopez and his two siblings, Mark and Diana, had captured medals in their respective weight classes. Mark Lopez captured silver in the 68-kilogram division, while Diana Lopez took bronze in the 57-kilogram weight class.

“(WTF officials) don’t think about the repercussions until after they make a mistake,” Steven Lopez said. “They know the power we have as a family and bringing limelight to our sport. By no means do I want to bring this sport down. I love this sport. But sometimes in any sport there are judges, there are politics involved. Unfortunately, there’s not supposed to be that in any of the sports, but you see it all the time. Whether it be gymnastics, boxing, it happens.

“There are bad calls all the time. This is one of the times that it happened to me. It normally doesn’t, but it happened. It *****.”
Glenn
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Post by IJ »

Beware sports in which raising your leg in defense or to block is illegal... I remember taking a lot of flak at a TKD class for

1) jabbing too hard (during drills, not hitting anyone)
2) blocking kicks
3) punching toward the head
--Ian
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Post by Jason Rees »

I still take flak for it, IJ. :lol:
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Post by TSDguy »

IJ as much as I personally respect anyone who criticizes the messed up politics of TKD (not sarcasm), your points are 'wrong'. If you kick someone in the nuts in boxing, you can and should be DQed.

People- and I'm not referring to you- who make fun of TKD for various rules need to be subjugated to a jump back kick to the face. Olmpyic TKD is a sport, albeit it extremely violent sport, but it has never claimed to be a street fight. Obey the rules or do not play. Or I'm coming to a Uechi class and bending your fingers the wrong way. :wink:
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Post by MikeK »

Yup, what TSD said.
People sometimes don't realize that sport TKD isn't point sparring but trying to knock the other guy on his ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjvugJ2 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWpt9q_j ... re=related
I was dreaming of the past...
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Post by Jason Rees »

TSDguy wrote:IJ as much as I personally respect anyone who criticizes the messed up politics of TKD (not sarcasm), your points are 'wrong'. If you kick someone in the nuts in boxing, you can and should be DQed.
All well and good, TSD, but in boxing you're encouraged to protect yourself.
People- and I'm not referring to you- who make fun of TKD for various rules need to be subjugated to a jump back kick to the face.
Been there. That's why I still block kicks. :wink:
Olmpyic TKD is a sport, albeit it extremely violent sport, but it has never claimed to be a street fight.
Obey the rules or do not play. Or I'm coming to a Uechi class and bending your fingers the wrong way. :wink:


I play by the rules to the extent that nobody gets hurt... but find me a Uechi class, and you can bend my fingers all day. :lol:
People sometimes don't realize that sport TKD isn't point sparring but trying to knock the other guy on his ass.
Guess it depends on the school and the instructor, like anything else. 2/3 have been about point sparring, it's just that I'm still thinking about knocking the other guy on his arse, even when no one else is. :)
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Post by TSDguy »

Jason:

So you're saying that you should try to kick boxers in the nuts? Or are you trying to say TKD fighters can't handle a street fight and/or don't try to protect themselves?

Cuz in both cases you that would be very wrong. :lol:

Edit: And your 'point' about knocking the other guy on his ass is kind of ironic considering that you don't get a 'point' in TKD unless you literally knock the other guy on his ass. "Rock the body" is the phrase you're looking for.
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Post by IJ »

"IJ as much as I personally respect anyone who criticizes the messed up politics of TKD (not sarcasm), your points are 'wrong'. If you kick someone in the nuts in boxing, you can and should be DQed."

Hey, I understand it's a sport. I do jiujitsu--with a gi, without any striking. BUT we acknowledge that people don't always wear gis, and discuss how that will be managed. When people are up-trained enough, they move to no gi scenarios in addition to gi work. We don't hit each other--BUT we train to defend such attacks, and we have a curriculum set up to address common "street" attacks such as bear hugs, tackles, takedowns, and other such unpleasantries. Plus the teacher offer muay thai instruction and doesn't labor under the assumption that gi-BJJ is the beginning and end of self defense.

My take is that having learned a striking art, and wanting to focus on a grappling art, one that you can do full-bore without pulling the maneuvers, is what I want to do. I DON'T want to be told that it's wrong to jab powerfully, even if its just as fast as a weak strike, because a jab is "just a fake." That instructor needed to watch some UFC. When we have some fake aspects we at least acknowledge them. If I'm on top of someone but can't finish with a choke or lock right off, I'll playfully fake punch them in the face to let them know they're toast in the world even if they're stalling in the gym.

And if I want to lift my leg to defend a kick? That's my prerogative, just like it's TKD's to specify you can't do it. Their rules are kosher--for people who want to play by them. Be my guest. My opinions don't mesh with my rules, true, but that doesn't make my gripes "wrong," that just makes me someone who isn't interested in their rules.
--Ian
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Post by TSDguy »

So you all use hip throws and groin kicks when you play basketball... remind me never to do ANYthing with you guys. :lol:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Having worked with TKD and Hapkido fighters through my sparring years, I tend to agree with Ian.

My sparring days started before the pillows on the hands and feet, and the head gear. We wore mouthpieces and groin cups, and that was it. We tried for both control and realism. I was sparring back in the days when Joe Lewis and Superfoot Wallace won their first full-contact championships. I still remember all those Joe Lewis fights where he said "to hell" with the pads on the hands, and chose to KO fighter after fighter with his forearm. Now THAT'S something a Uechi fighter can appreciate! :twisted:

When we wanted to hit hard, we entered the intramural boxing training and tournament every year. One of our class members was a 2-time weight class winner and voted Most Valuable Boxer both years.

The TKD rules FRUSTRATE a fighter. Being a natural "head hunter", I don't like being told I can't punch to the head. Being a natural crane, I don't like being told I can't jam a kick. And the tiger in me doesn't like being told I can't grab. Whenever we got outside the confines of their dojangs and "played", dispensing with these fighters was a pretty simple proposition. Jam your way in with a crane leg, get on top of them in bad-breath range, and don't stop hitting. In all my years of facing TKD practitioners in open tournaments, I never met one who had an answer for this.

When my Uechi Ryu instructor Rad Smith left Charlottesville after having started the club 1.5 years earlier, he suggested that I could study with Korean champion Seul Dong just down the road. I wasn't interested. There wasn't anything Dong could teach me that I hadn't already learned (better) with Hiroshi Hamada and his traditional Nippon Shorin Ken. Others will disagree, and that is their prerogative.

I chose instead to teach without a black belt, and work my way through my system via long-distance training and hard work. Two years later, I put the TKD master out of business (he moved to Harrisonburg, and then to Richmond), and the rest is history.

Are there things the TKD people do that I respect? Absolutely. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A form I choreographed (part of my renshi award) was about teaching all the fundamental kicks of martial arts so my Uechi students knew how they worked and how to face against them. About twenty percent of the form is kicks that one might think of as typically Korean martial arts kicks. They are fun to do, they are fun to teach, the young bucks love them, and they burn some serious calories.

It isn't what the TKD people do that causes me to steal what I find useful rather than train in a dojang. I wouldn't still be able to do a spinning hook kick in my mid fifties had I not stolen from their toolbox of "nifty" kicks. It's what they say you can't do when they spar. Right from the get-go, my interest in martial arts has been in the realm of self-defense. I can't in good conscience allow myself to face someone with my long legs and (still) reasonable flexibility without allowing them the ability to thwart what I do when I start throwing flash at their heads. If my balls are staring at you, I want you to take a shot at them - even if it's a "pulled" technique. If my center can be taken from me, well TAKE IT, damnit! Don't let me do something in the gym that makes no sense from a self-defense perspective. I don't like learning and practicing techniques and strategies that I'll have to "unlearn" when putting my self defense cap on.

Are Uechi Ryu people guilty of some of the same stuff? They are to the extent that we put the pillows on our hands and encourage people to use seiken fists to the heads. From a self-defense standpoint, it's dumb, dumb, dumb. But there are worse infractions in the world of martial arts. My fist has "acted without permission" in a few dicey self-defense situations, and I came out of it OK. And that just proves my point. It's so damned hard to "unlearn" what amounts to a "bad habit" for self-defense.

There are two other things "typically associated with" TKD that makes me lack respect in general.
  • One is highlighted in the article Glenn posted - THE POLITICS. Indeed TKD is the Korean national sport, and the spread of TKD by Korea is a conscious effort at propaganda. Just as some Christians have problems with bowing to pictures in a "traditional" Uechi dojo, I have problems bowing to the Korean flag. The layers of these political issues are many.

    Good thing we don't see such issues outside of TKD... ;)
  • The other is the "business" of TKD. It's contracts, guaranteed belts if you pay money and show up, etc., etc. But alas others have learned from the Korean businessmen. So I guess I can't really lay this one exclusively on the "take your doe" folks.
I don't think this is a matter of "right" and "wrong" as TSDGuy suggests. It's a matter of what you want. It's like saying I am "wrong" for being libertarian, and poking fun at people who want to suckle from the teat of Big Government. Hey... that's MY preference. That's what I want. And that's how I view populism and liberalism. That doesn't make me "wrong."

As I am want to say, it is what it is.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Note the heavy dose of self-deprecation in my post. Food for thought...

Look in the mirror every day, and judge yourself before you start judging.

- Bill
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Post by TSDguy »

I'm not judging anyone. You said you don't want to play by the rules. Either play by TKDs rules or don't, but you can't say that you're right when you play TKD and break their rules. If you do that, no judging is necessary, you're just wrong.
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Post by Jason Rees »

TSDguy wrote:Jason:

So you're saying that you should try to kick boxers in the nuts? Or are you trying to say TKD fighters can't handle a street fight and/or don't try to protect themselves?
I'm saying that in the majority of TKD schools (3) that I have been involved with in the past, I was not taught to defend myself. I've not said, however, that TKD fighters can't handle a streetfight. Someone I knew in my army days went to jail because he and five other people thought it'd be a good idea to rob a pizza delivery guy... who turned out to be a black belt in TKD, and kicked five of their sorry butts and dragged two of them to the CQ desk. It's not the art. It's the artist. 8)
Edit: And your 'point' about knocking the other guy on his ass is kind of ironic considering that you don't get a 'point' in TKD unless you literally knock the other guy on his ass. "Rock the body" is the phrase you're looking for.
Again, your experience differs from mine. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you and I have seen drastically different aspects of the same art.[/quote]
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Post by Jason Rees »

Back to the topic:

Any large organization is going to have these political issues, and bad decisions reached by committee. It's just going to happen. And TKD IS big.

Bill mentioned the propaganda. At one of the places I trained, it was horrendous. You had to spout the stuff for testing. Ugh. I'm an American. Please don't ask me to spout the praises of dictators and 'freedom fighters.' No, I didn't stay long.

Some schools teach you to keep your hands at your sides. Most had no answer for a sweep. Most didn't teach dealing with groundpounders. None allowed punching, even though half the poomse (kata) movements are, actually, punching and other hand techniques. All of them taught a very linear (back-and-forth) give-and-take. I was actually told NOT to move side-to-side AT ALL. Sidestepping my sparring partners took 95% of them completely by surprise the first few times I did it. And I could have taken their heads off at will if I had been so inclined.

TKD is primarily a sport martial art. Self-defense in my experience has simply not been a focus of the schools I've attended.

Is Judo headed along this same path? I don't know. I do know that not a single match was covered that I could find. It was invisible. That doesn't bode well, in my opinion. If people aren't interested in it, the Olympic Committe might one day drop it, too.
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Post by mhosea »

Jason Rees wrote: Is Judo headed along this same path? I don't know. I do know that not a single match was covered that I could find. It was invisible. That doesn't bode well, in my opinion. If people aren't interested in it, the Olympic Committe might one day drop it, too.
I've been using www.nbc.com to see a lot of the less popular things, but it seems always to take a bit of searching. At any rate, there are your Citius, Altius, Fortius events, what the olympics are supposed to be about, and then there are a myriad of competitions that don't fit (without an exercise in generalization and abstraction) into those categories. I suppose gymnastics might originally have fit, but of course now it's labeled an "artistic" event where you "score" lower when your feet come apart. I like watching those things, I guess, but I think something ought to distinguish the olympics from some kind of aggregate world championships for an arbitrary smattering of sports. I personally think Citius, Altius, Fortius is a good guide for that, since it hints that the games are a celebration of the capabilities of the human form, not just so-and-so beat all the other so-and-so's this year, but I guess that is just too idealistic of me. Anyway, I could not care less whether TKD or Judo stay or go from the olympics. It's not like they disappear from existence if they go. From my perspective they might be first-rate sports, but as olympic sports they were always second-rate. Boxing is the same. Great sport, but not "olympic" in nature.
Mike
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