There is a wonderful thread started on the women's forum by Shana, titled "To Pump or not to Pump". Featured in the thread are some clips of Scott Sonnon, from Rick Wilson. I now see where those new moves are coming from in our karate class...good stuff! Please check it out.
I am almost 53 and have been actively weight lifting since I was 25. I have always pushed myself in the gym. Unfortunattely, my shoulder, knee, and various joints are getting whacked now. I am looking at alternative ways to stay in good shape without killing my body...and am considering using the club bells or kettle bells.
Two questions here related to this topic:
1. Can I do this with my presently messed up shoulder with the club bell or must I wait till total recovery. It is targeted for joint mobility and health.
2. Scott Sonnon stresses that the advantage of using the club bell over weights is that the stress on the joint with weight pushes out the synovial fluid, thus drying out the joint and causing future deterioration in the joint. My question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?
I am sold on this after seeing Scott Sonnon's UTube clips and downloaded them to my facebook...most amazing abilities for someone who started out with serious joint issues as a child.
Regards,
Vicki
Shoulder issues and the use of club bells
Moderator: Available
Shoulder issues and the use of club bells
"Cry in the dojo, laugh in the battlefield"
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Shana Moore
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:42 pm
- Location: Virginia
I'll also ask my question regarding these clubbells here, with the understanding that I haven't been able to view the vids yet due to blockage at work and little time at home to check them out. Based on Rick's descriptions, though, this is based on swinging the weights.
While I can see this adding a stretching component to the weight work, which might be beneficial, I can also see this adding a sudden increase in force (I may not be using the correct term here) at the height of the swing arc. Perhaps I am reading too much into this or misunderstanding the physics, which is why I am asking the medical and scientific minds here to comment.
I too think this sounds very intriguing. I'm loving this idea and want to give it a shot, but just want to check that one thought out first. Thanks!
While I can see this adding a stretching component to the weight work, which might be beneficial, I can also see this adding a sudden increase in force (I may not be using the correct term here) at the height of the swing arc. Perhaps I am reading too much into this or misunderstanding the physics, which is why I am asking the medical and scientific minds here to comment.
I too think this sounds very intriguing. I'm loving this idea and want to give it a shot, but just want to check that one thought out first. Thanks!
Live True, Laugh often
Shana
Shana
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Laird2
I've been using the Club bells for about six months. I started with the mini's ( 2 pounds) and worked Scotts xtension material.
I've been living with two messed up damaged shoulders for about 6 years. I thought nothing short of the knife was going to fix them. One shoulder was visably lower than the other.
3 months later the shoulders are now 98% .Pretty much pain free, they are even and I haven't had this range of motion in years. Real easy to hide my chin behing my shoulder when sparing now!
Just start with the basic material and listen to your body Vickie, if it hurts stop. Scotts DVD's are great. Pay attention to form. This is all about joints health and I've never felt better.
I'm now working with 35 pound club bells!
I've been living with two messed up damaged shoulders for about 6 years. I thought nothing short of the knife was going to fix them. One shoulder was visably lower than the other.
3 months later the shoulders are now 98% .Pretty much pain free, they are even and I haven't had this range of motion in years. Real easy to hide my chin behing my shoulder when sparing now!
Just start with the basic material and listen to your body Vickie, if it hurts stop. Scotts DVD's are great. Pay attention to form. This is all about joints health and I've never felt better.
I'm now working with 35 pound club bells!
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Stryke
Vicki check out Scott Sonnons Intuflow , I think it`s one of the best things anyone can do for there health/mobility , I am soldMy question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?
http://www.wilsonkarate.com/forum/viewt ... hp?tid=742
if you decide to order , you can always do so through Ricks website and help a Uechika out along the way .
IMHO clubs are safer than weights simply because of ROM and the lower weights required for constructive work , increase in joint structure/stability throughout range of motion , just exceptional for MA . Done correctly its very smootha nd fluid arcs and natural whole body movement , just like good MA
Im also a fan of kettlebells too
I didn't really know what a club bell was, so I did a youtube search, found some unrelated material, and then this, and I have to say just on musical grounds, this healthcare professional is against the use of clubbells in all their forms forever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmeyLDEVQfI
But seriously.
"Scott Sonnon stresses that the advantage of using the club bell over weights is that the stress on the joint with weight pushes out the synovial fluid, thus drying out the joint and causing future deterioration in the joint. My question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?"
"My question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?"
These comments are basically nonstarters. Weights are just things that weigh, and club bells weigh, and so I don't know how we can conclude that weights of certain shapes push synovial fluid through joints and others push fluid out of joints. That to me means one is either trying to sell something or using anatomic terms in a metaphoric way, trying to capture the experience of a weight routine, but I don't really know what those mean .
Joints are usually lined with slippery cartilage on the bone-bone surface and the whole joint is encased in a capsule. That's full of synovial fluid, and you can't squeeze it "out" of the joint without rupturing the capsule. Could you move more out from between the cartilage surfaces? I guess, and you'd do that every time you used weights (things that weigh) or do anything else. If you have someone pull on your foot while you hold onto bed rails, you can increase the space between the femur and tibia, and more fluid will be in there; if you stand, the weight pushes the fluid to the side. But that's as it was meant to be. You don't protect the parts of a car engine by trying to separate them from each other unless they're malaligned or something. They touch and slide as part of their work.
I'm not aware of any way you can put more synovial fluid in your joints, nor am I aware of how that would be helpful or of synovial fluid deficiency. Some swear by glucosamine and chondrotin to improve the cartilage surfaces, but the best studies on that were negative. People may have improved perceived joint health with these tools, and that's great, but I suspect that has nothing to do with relief of malfunctioning contact points on the cartilage or the fluid between them; I imagine that's due to flexibility, muscle support of joints, or reduction in the impact or awkward positioning and stress of exercises the subject used to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmeyLDEVQfI
But seriously.
"Scott Sonnon stresses that the advantage of using the club bell over weights is that the stress on the joint with weight pushes out the synovial fluid, thus drying out the joint and causing future deterioration in the joint. My question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?"
"My question is what can I do to force snyovial fluid through the shoulder joints (as well as elbows, knees, etc.)?"
These comments are basically nonstarters. Weights are just things that weigh, and club bells weigh, and so I don't know how we can conclude that weights of certain shapes push synovial fluid through joints and others push fluid out of joints. That to me means one is either trying to sell something or using anatomic terms in a metaphoric way, trying to capture the experience of a weight routine, but I don't really know what those mean .
Joints are usually lined with slippery cartilage on the bone-bone surface and the whole joint is encased in a capsule. That's full of synovial fluid, and you can't squeeze it "out" of the joint without rupturing the capsule. Could you move more out from between the cartilage surfaces? I guess, and you'd do that every time you used weights (things that weigh) or do anything else. If you have someone pull on your foot while you hold onto bed rails, you can increase the space between the femur and tibia, and more fluid will be in there; if you stand, the weight pushes the fluid to the side. But that's as it was meant to be. You don't protect the parts of a car engine by trying to separate them from each other unless they're malaligned or something. They touch and slide as part of their work.
I'm not aware of any way you can put more synovial fluid in your joints, nor am I aware of how that would be helpful or of synovial fluid deficiency. Some swear by glucosamine and chondrotin to improve the cartilage surfaces, but the best studies on that were negative. People may have improved perceived joint health with these tools, and that's great, but I suspect that has nothing to do with relief of malfunctioning contact points on the cartilage or the fluid between them; I imagine that's due to flexibility, muscle support of joints, or reduction in the impact or awkward positioning and stress of exercises the subject used to do.
--Ian
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Rick Wilson
Synovial fluid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_fluid
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Synovial fluid is a thick, stringy fluid found in the cavities of synovial joints. With its egg-like consistency ("synovial" partially derives from ovum, Latin for egg), synovial fluid reduces friction between the articular cartilage and other tissues in joints to lubricate nd cushion them during movement.
The inner membrane of synovial joints is called the synovial membrane and secretes synovial fluid into the joint cavity. This fluid forms a thin layer (roughly 50 μm) at the surface of cartilage, but also seeps into microcavities and irregularities in the articular cartilage surface, filling all empty space [1]. The fluid within articular cartilage effectively serves as a synovial fluid reserve. During movement, the synovial fluid held within the cartilage is squeezed out mechanically to maintain a layer of fluid on the cartilage surface (so-called weeping lubrication).
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... /19698.htm
The synovial membrane is the inner membrane of tissue that lines a joint. The synovial membrane secretes synovial fluid which serves to lubricate the joint.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/synovial+fluid
synovial fluid
Viscous colourless fluid that bathes movable joints between the bones of vertebrates. It nourishes and lubricates the cartilage at the end of each bone.
Synovial fluid is secreted by a membrane, the synovium, that links movably jointed bones.
Immobility breeds immobility – mobility has the joints nourished by synovial fluid and breeds mobility.
Ian if you wish to dispute what Scott Sonnon is saying why not go to his forum directly:
http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synovial_fluid
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Synovial fluid is a thick, stringy fluid found in the cavities of synovial joints. With its egg-like consistency ("synovial" partially derives from ovum, Latin for egg), synovial fluid reduces friction between the articular cartilage and other tissues in joints to lubricate nd cushion them during movement.
The inner membrane of synovial joints is called the synovial membrane and secretes synovial fluid into the joint cavity. This fluid forms a thin layer (roughly 50 μm) at the surface of cartilage, but also seeps into microcavities and irregularities in the articular cartilage surface, filling all empty space [1]. The fluid within articular cartilage effectively serves as a synovial fluid reserve. During movement, the synovial fluid held within the cartilage is squeezed out mechanically to maintain a layer of fluid on the cartilage surface (so-called weeping lubrication).
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... /19698.htm
The synovial membrane is the inner membrane of tissue that lines a joint. The synovial membrane secretes synovial fluid which serves to lubricate the joint.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/synovial+fluid
synovial fluid
Viscous colourless fluid that bathes movable joints between the bones of vertebrates. It nourishes and lubricates the cartilage at the end of each bone.
Synovial fluid is secreted by a membrane, the synovium, that links movably jointed bones.
Immobility breeds immobility – mobility has the joints nourished by synovial fluid and breeds mobility.
Ian if you wish to dispute what Scott Sonnon is saying why not go to his forum directly:
http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/index.php
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I have to agree with Ian in the sense that Scott is no medical expert.
He's a spectacular grappler. And he has some great ideas on exercises that show his grappling perspective. But like my own beloved instructor Mr. Mattson, he can on occasion be spectacularly imprecise in his understanding of anatomy and physiology.
As Will Rogers once said, we're all ignorant - just in different things.
That being said... There's something to the club bell exercises. And Scott IMO is on the mark in how these are a great compliment to other kinds of resistance training. Like George, Scott has great instincts. I like hanging around the both of them and stealing what I can.
To start with, these exercises are smooth and continuous, whole body, and emphasize the use of core muscles. And they are "open chain." In that sense they are great for building a certain level of strength and teaching the practitioner how to transfer those motions to real athletic activities.
As for the synovial fluid explanation, well... Maybe not so much. But consider another explanation.
Basically since these exercises tend to pull rather than push on some joints like the elbows and shoulders, then there is less shear stress on the joints. Shear is when one surface slides against the other. The greater the pressure on the two surfaces as they rub, the greater the shear forces. Too much means wear-and-tear which can be tough on the articular cartilage of the joints (the glassy surface at the end of the bones).
So if you are doing lots of compression-like forces on the joints with your various routines, well having something like the club bells can work your joints in another way, thus reducing the risk of repetitive motion injuries.
In my opinion, this is why the classic Uechi Ryu jar training works without giving people arthritis in the typically vulnerable finger joints. While you are working your fingers to death, the weight of the jar is pulling rather than pushing on the joints. Thus the shear stresses within those joints are next to nil. At the other extreme are crimping techniques used in rock climbing which are well-known to be very hard on the finger joints. I've known many a rock climber who earned some nasty-looking finger joints at an early age from a lot of crimping on the rock face.
But like all things, use good technique and ease into it slowly. Anytime you start something new, you are at high risk of hurting something you never knew could get hurt. On the flip side, you will be developing your body in new ways and perhaps giving other areas of your body more rest than they've had in a while.
Give it a try, Vicki. If you want, I'll get a set and we can work on this together. I understand the fundamentals involved, so it wouldn't take long with Scott's tapes to have me get you up to speed.
You too, Shana.
- Bill
P.S. If you are a young buck, classic free-weight training is still the fastest way to make you strong and competitive. Classic Olympic lifts are the fastest way to build whole-body power. The kettle bells and club bells can be something to do in addition to the basics. Just be careful not to over-train.
He's a spectacular grappler. And he has some great ideas on exercises that show his grappling perspective. But like my own beloved instructor Mr. Mattson, he can on occasion be spectacularly imprecise in his understanding of anatomy and physiology.
As Will Rogers once said, we're all ignorant - just in different things.
That being said... There's something to the club bell exercises. And Scott IMO is on the mark in how these are a great compliment to other kinds of resistance training. Like George, Scott has great instincts. I like hanging around the both of them and stealing what I can.
To start with, these exercises are smooth and continuous, whole body, and emphasize the use of core muscles. And they are "open chain." In that sense they are great for building a certain level of strength and teaching the practitioner how to transfer those motions to real athletic activities.
As for the synovial fluid explanation, well... Maybe not so much. But consider another explanation.
Basically since these exercises tend to pull rather than push on some joints like the elbows and shoulders, then there is less shear stress on the joints. Shear is when one surface slides against the other. The greater the pressure on the two surfaces as they rub, the greater the shear forces. Too much means wear-and-tear which can be tough on the articular cartilage of the joints (the glassy surface at the end of the bones).
So if you are doing lots of compression-like forces on the joints with your various routines, well having something like the club bells can work your joints in another way, thus reducing the risk of repetitive motion injuries.
In my opinion, this is why the classic Uechi Ryu jar training works without giving people arthritis in the typically vulnerable finger joints. While you are working your fingers to death, the weight of the jar is pulling rather than pushing on the joints. Thus the shear stresses within those joints are next to nil. At the other extreme are crimping techniques used in rock climbing which are well-known to be very hard on the finger joints. I've known many a rock climber who earned some nasty-looking finger joints at an early age from a lot of crimping on the rock face.
But like all things, use good technique and ease into it slowly. Anytime you start something new, you are at high risk of hurting something you never knew could get hurt. On the flip side, you will be developing your body in new ways and perhaps giving other areas of your body more rest than they've had in a while.
Give it a try, Vicki. If you want, I'll get a set and we can work on this together. I understand the fundamentals involved, so it wouldn't take long with Scott's tapes to have me get you up to speed.
You too, Shana.
- Bill
P.S. If you are a young buck, classic free-weight training is still the fastest way to make you strong and competitive. Classic Olympic lifts are the fastest way to build whole-body power. The kettle bells and club bells can be something to do in addition to the basics. Just be careful not to over-train.
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Stryke
everyones an expert , just look at the material the results and educate .
olympic lifts take a huge investment to do safely , the arent the average persons go too .
there are better specific applicability to many of the circular motions involved in clubells .
It is much easier to learn to clean and press a kettlebell then to do it olympic barbell style .
theres a place for it all , Kettlebells and clubbells are used by many serious competitors who really are on the performance edge .
I know the classic lifts , is anyone else on here is close to a double body weight lift on anything I`m willing to get into the specifics of that approach , there are limitations , strength is specific , a narrow approach will produce narrow results unless your an alpha athelete type already .
clubbells and kettlebells add a lot of motion , are fun , and are relatively easy and safe (if learnt correctly) for the average already training individual .
I`d suggest going to the source and avoiding the peanut gallery , wether they are a doctor or even if they just play one on tv .
the proof is in the doing and results , theres plenty of demonstrations clips around , and plenty of personal experience from folks on this very forum , thats the sniff test in my book .
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Really?Stryke wrote:
olympic lifts take a huge investment to do safely , the arent the average persons go too.
I have my 9-year-old boy doing Olympic power cleans and clean-and-jerk exercises. And while I'd like to think he's a genius kid - as all parents are want to do - he's just my son.
Note to all... I have him doing these exercises with light weight. His growth plates are still active. Never have a kid with lots of growing to do engage in heavy lifting.
My opinions about the average person getting the most bang for the buck come from years of working with the UVa strength coach (who was a world heavyweight powerlifting champion) and researching how most NCAA and professional athletes train. John Gamble went on to become an NFL strength coach, and I've been fortunate enough to get tours of a number of NCAA strength training facilities.
Strength training and conditioning is a complex field with many sports, many approaches, and many opinions. Everyone is working on "the best" way, but ultimately it's about tuning it to the individual. Keeping someone at the peak of anabolic metabolism (without using Rx), preserving or improving range of motion, minimizing risk of injury, and maximizing the ability to take ideal principles of human movement to the playing field is part science and part art. Nobody has THE recipe just for you. There is no shrink wrap product. Every day is an adjustment to how the body responded yesterday.
That's why you have long-time athletes (like Laird and Vicki) making adjustments to their routines when their bodies are telling them that something isn't right.
This is why there are strength coaches.
And yes, that's why we have (hopefully good) physicians to help us as well. *
Good point, Marcus, and I agree. In fact I've been doing similar exercises with dumbbells and Olympic barbell plates. There are lots of ways to do some of the same exercises.Stryke wrote:
theres a place for it all , Kettlebells and clubbells are used by many serious competitors who really are on the performance edge
People come from all walks of life to this kind of training. Some are starting conditioning from scratch. Many are looking to broaden their routines. Some are shuffling the exercise deck so to speak so as not to get bored, get off a plateau, improve athletic movement, or avoid repetitive motion injuries.
Many people who have spent their lives training learn to listen to their bodies, and discover for themselves when it's time for this kind of training .
Scott has been good to me, and given me a few freebies in the past. He's a great athlete and a smart coach. And for the most part we think alike.Stryke wrote:
I`d suggest going to the source and avoiding the peanut gallery , wether they are a doctor or even if they just play one on tv
That's why I re-emphasize doing this with a coach, and - yes - listening to your doctor. There is a role for the vendor with the tapes, a role for the coach, a role for the martial arts instructor (the two sometimes one and the same) and a role for your physician. No professional or NCAA sports program has these elements at war with each other. View this as a 4-legged stool. You sit on it best when all 4 legs are working towards the same goal.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
- Bill
* My bias with physicians is to find one who is or was him/herself an athlete. Many who make it through medical school and hang the stethoscope around the neck are nonathletic and haven't a clue about specialized diets. A good MD for our crowd is someone who has been there done that, has a good health care network to work with (dietitian, orthopedist, physical therapist, etc.), and wants to keep you out on the playing field.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Always start light when doing a new routine. ALWAYS!!!chef wrote:
Good stuff! One question, Bill. Do you think it should wait till the shoulder is better to or go ahead and try the lighter club bells?
Regards,
Vicki
You are day by day, Vicki. Get the new toys. Then we'll work on those shoulders, as well as all the other stuff we're doing for your sandan exam.
- Bill
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jorvik
Well Ian's comments makes me a bit concerned about my purchase of Kettlebells............I enjoyed them at first but have laid off them for now.
For a workout they seemed great..but Given I have an artificial hip and these are basically for the whole body...............should I be concerned?...maybe they are only for folks who don't have such problems
What are your thoughts Ian?
For a workout they seemed great..but Given I have an artificial hip and these are basically for the whole body...............should I be concerned?...maybe they are only for folks who don't have such problems
What are your thoughts Ian?
I don't think there is a problem with club bells or kettlebells. Or rather, it's all in how one uses them. I think there are lots of ways to train effectively and everyone finds their own (hopefully). If people want to use bells, use bells. As for when to return, Vicki, your body will tell you. Start light and go slow and work your way back up; if something hurts, something's wrong.
Right now my frustration is that my AC joint is knitted back together enough that there's no pain with normal activity (I got a twinge blocking roundhouse kicks this morning). But I definitely could do pushups and weight work now... except, my shoulder hurts from the prior issue.
I had an RC strain, I did the rehab, the pain vanished, a new pain came--that was bursitis from vigorous RC rehab and that went away with an injection. But then I would get new pains and have to back down on the JJ--the sports guy blames this on joint laxity in me, saying I just jostle the muscles now and then because the joint is a little loose, and he cites a sulcus sign (my shoulder can be pulled down more than usual and a divot appears) and my numerous right ankle sprains. BUT it's JUST my left shoulder; the right ankle was from noncare of a bad sprain (I was a kid and "Dr. Dad" turned out only to have a PhD in education).
That led to my MRI, which was completely normal. And all my RC muscle strength is good now. So there's nothing wrong with my shoulder. It just hurts. And it will hurt if I do gentle stuff, which I'm not going to not do. So I'm going to have to work through it to some degree, I guess.
As for the cartilage science and the synovial fluid pushing around, ok, there may be some in spongy cartilage that's squeezed out into the joint as lubricant, but I fail to see how bells would differ from weights in this. Anything that compresses the joint would do this, anything that separated it (ie, jars) would not. If one is looking for more science on this, go to pubmed and search, or, ask the enthusiasts for a reference. I predict but don't guarantee there won't be any real science to using club bells over traditional weights w.r.t. synovial fluid mechanics.
Right now my frustration is that my AC joint is knitted back together enough that there's no pain with normal activity (I got a twinge blocking roundhouse kicks this morning). But I definitely could do pushups and weight work now... except, my shoulder hurts from the prior issue.
I had an RC strain, I did the rehab, the pain vanished, a new pain came--that was bursitis from vigorous RC rehab and that went away with an injection. But then I would get new pains and have to back down on the JJ--the sports guy blames this on joint laxity in me, saying I just jostle the muscles now and then because the joint is a little loose, and he cites a sulcus sign (my shoulder can be pulled down more than usual and a divot appears) and my numerous right ankle sprains. BUT it's JUST my left shoulder; the right ankle was from noncare of a bad sprain (I was a kid and "Dr. Dad" turned out only to have a PhD in education).
That led to my MRI, which was completely normal. And all my RC muscle strength is good now. So there's nothing wrong with my shoulder. It just hurts. And it will hurt if I do gentle stuff, which I'm not going to not do. So I'm going to have to work through it to some degree, I guess.
As for the cartilage science and the synovial fluid pushing around, ok, there may be some in spongy cartilage that's squeezed out into the joint as lubricant, but I fail to see how bells would differ from weights in this. Anything that compresses the joint would do this, anything that separated it (ie, jars) would not. If one is looking for more science on this, go to pubmed and search, or, ask the enthusiasts for a reference. I predict but don't guarantee there won't be any real science to using club bells over traditional weights w.r.t. synovial fluid mechanics.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You're forgetting two ingredients to complete rehab, Ian.IJ wrote:
I had an RC strain, I did the rehab, the pain vanished, a new pain came--that was bursitis from vigorous RC rehab and that went away with an injection. But then I would get new pains...
1) Patience
2) Tincture of time
You'll get there, Ian. Ease into it.
The journey from new injury to complete health may involve many unanticipated twists and turns. No step in the journey is without its potential to take you in an unexpected direction. The rehab exercises are new, and the body responds. Compensation due to the injury puts new stresses on the body, and the body responds. The "original" injury starts to get better, and other areas start to hurt that you never knew were hurt that bad because of the selective way your body communicates pain to you. Etc., etc.
Trust me, you will get there - if you give your body the chance.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
