Women vs men...dealing with being hit

[chef]

After reading Bill's interesting observations on class injuries and the rise in them as we advance, it made me think of how many people come and go, men vs women and why they leave.

Men train in karate for different reasons than women. From the years I have practiced karate, I see the following reasons for doing martial arts:

- Health and fitness
- People like to fight (I have seen many hot doggers come and go for this reason)
- Overcoming fear due to being bullied, raped, abused, etc.
- Little man complex (sorry, not meant to be offensive) but smaller men that were teased and bullied as children want an edge sometimes)
- Fascination with the ability to use the body with strength and grace
- Fascinations with the asian and martial arts lifestye of control, energy, zen, or whatever
- Others I am missing, I'm sure

Many women, such as myself, come in to learn either how not to be a victim (from a nearly being raped at 15) or how to protect oneself.

Women, by nature, are not as physical as men. Girls growing up laughing, crying, being very verbal, and are generally less physically demonstrative than men. Boys yell, push, shove, physically compete and vie for dominance..although both sexes cross over depending on the child's nature and nurture.

...so, point being made in all of this: women will probably respond differently when initially hit in class. We associate being hit as a negative thing, with punishment from Dad or Mom where guys have considered the pushing/shoving almost a right of passage and dominance.

It'a funny thing I have noticed in class: when Bill gets hit hard in kotikitae, he growls, his pupils dilate, and he revs up much more, getting much more intense in his actions and reactions. Always makes me laugh. Heck, with me, harder and faster makes me be more competitive, but you may hear me wincing rather than growling due to my weaker arms giving out or giving in to the pain, especially lately since I have not been doing enough conditioning.

Back on task...yes, many women will drop out after green belt. I remember reading somewhere that men are 50% strong than women on an average. I can see that when I go to the gym and see how much weight the typical guy lifts compared to what I lift and I think I am pretty strong for a woman.

Many women do indeed drop out after green belt? I hate that...so why? Could it be that many women don't like being bruised, feeling battered (based on what they bring to the table), and often respond to a first hard heat with tears...much like when Dad first physically spanked them.

I found it caused an emotional reaction in me the first time I really started being hit fairly hard. I did get over it or I wouldn't be here. I also had an older brother that like to bully me.

So what do we do about this? Ask the guy to quit hitting so hard? Conditioning more? Wear pads? Guys don't.

What do you think?

Regards,
Vicki

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm going to add two posts that precipitated this thread.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Accid Anal Prev. 2000 May;32(3):421-5.

Karate injuries in children and adolescents.
Zetaruk MN, Violan MA, Zurakowski D, Micheli LJ.

Division of Sports Medicine, Children's Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

OBJECTIVES: To identify risk factors for injury and to establish safety guidelines for children in Uechi-Ryu karate. DESIGN: A 1-year retrospective survey of injuries. SETTING: A private karate school (Uechi-Ryu style) in Plymouth, MA. PATIENTS: A total of 68 athletes (age 6-16 years; mean age 10 years) who participated in karate during the 1995-1996 season. INTERVENTIONS: None. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The presence or absence of injury, with grading of injuries as major, moderate or minor. The types of injuries and body region involved were also analyzed. RESULTS: Twenty eight percent of athletes sustained at least one injury. All injuries were minor, with no time off from training required. The injuries consisted primarily of bruises (11 of 19). Other injuries included mild sprains or strains (5 of 19) and having their 'wind knocked out' (3 of 19). Most injuries were localized to the extremities. Logistic regression analysis identified risk factors for injury. Risk of injury increased with number of years of training (odds ratio 2.95; 95% confidence interval 1.81-4.82; P<0.0001), number of hours per week (odds ratio 2.12; CI 1.15-4.21; P = 0.016) and rank, specifically brown belt versus lower belts (odds ratio 6.56; CI 2.02-21.26; P = 0.006). CONCLUSIONS: Karate is a relatively safe sport for children and adolescents when properly taught. Risk of injury increases with experience; therefore, greater supervision is required of higher ranks. Injury increases with weekly training; however, 3 h a week or less appears to be associated with a low risk of significant injury in this age group.

[Bill Glasheen]

So interesting that people with more experience need more supervision to prevent injury! Bill, shall I come keep a watchful eye on your classes? I'll bring the bum finger, shoulder and hamstring.

Ian

I believe these Harvard boys accurately represented a phenomenon. It passes the "sniff test" with my experience. However I believe it to be a bit more nuanced than that. Damn... if I'd have known people would be interested in this, I would have taken data and reported my observations. Woulda coulda shoulda...

What I observe is that women and men started my very large UVa classes in equal numbers. At the end of the first semester test - a rigorously graded affair with multiple judges and numerical results - the women did ever so slightly better than the men. The only contact work in semester 1 was kotekitae and Kanshiwa bunkai. You can throw ukemi in that mix as well if you call falling "contact" work.

Then came the second semester where I introduced ashikitae and Kyu kumite. I re-tested for partner exercises halfway through the semester, and then introduced jiyu kumite. This second semester is when I observed the "injuries to extremities" per the article referenced above. There were black-and-blue forearms and shins, with the women hitting this wall harder than the men. And this is when I noted a one-time precipitous dropout for women. I think it was partly the black-and-blue vs. being feminine thing, and maybe a little bit of me actually expecting them to hit each other a bit. (Mostly contact of the extremeties)

If I could get someone over the "green belt hump", then the dropout rate went down. The shodan exam was a light at the end of the tunnel that kept many in.

I firmly believe that this increase of injury rate with experience is not an ever-increasing phenomenon. My personal observation as well as personal experience is that folks need

• time to condition the forearms and shins so they don't bruise as easily
• time to pick up the extra training (weight lifting, etc.) needed to keep the injury rate down
• time to get coordinated and trained enough so as not to take a hit when you don't need to
• time to get coordinated and trained enough so you aren't doing stupid things like leading a block with the finger tips. In my large intermediate groups I'd get one broken finger per semester - in spite of all my preaching and dire warnings.
• time to get coordinated and trained enough so you aren't blindly attacking with full force when there is no clear path to a target.

Most experienced Uechika can probably relate to this.

- Bill

[chef]

In response to what you just wrote, Bill, I have been trying to absorb the impact by stepping away when getting kicked hard by one of the more intense guys in class. I can't really back up with my arms though without compromising my distancing.

I am forever working on the co-ordination...I truly feel like an albatross.

As far as weight lifting, I do that religiously.

Right now, I only do my Uechi 2x a week and attend a Shotokan 2x a week, with one class being right after the other style. The one thing I wish was that the Shotokan would incorporate more in the way of body conditioning...so I guess I need to come up with some conditioning things to do at home.

What's good for at home? I am all ears...and bruises.

Regards,
Vicki

[IJ]

Writing while the deputies find more prisoners to examine....

I noticed a huge dropoff in women after semester one. I think a huge number came, or were parentally sent for, "self defense," for fraternity row situations. Many seemed disappointed that, after the drop deadline passed, I did a session and explained that almost all abuse is partner driven and being Bruce Lee isn't the answer--it's avoiding dangerous situations, getting out of bad relationships, picking the right mate, not traveling alone, or getting intoxicated. I admitted sanchin won't help, when horizontal and drunk in a fraternity. And I told them if they SERIOUSLY wanted to fend off a larger foe they could invest in knife training, and take advantage of VA's permissive stance toward small concealed weapons, and cautioned them there is no wisdom in doing THAT unless they were willing to train hard so no tool was turned on them, and also unless they were willing to stab a human being to death if necessary. That's not an instinct too many 18-19 year old UVA sorority applicants had--or wanted to cultivate.

A lot of the remainder is testosterone poisoning, in my opinion. The stereotype holds some water here, and women are more collaborative than competitive, at least c/w men. There was a female JJ student in my class and when she rolled with my other half (who quit, tired of larger, competitive, psycho opponents) they helped each other out, providing hints and feedback, and not risking injury to win in a meaningless training session. She got tired of it and left to devote all her time to kettlebells and studies. I honestly simply will not roll with aggressive classmates right now. I'd rather learn a bit more and stay in teh game longer especially given my currnet shoulder issues. And I've had the all out matches fighting while I couldn't breathe... been there done that, moving on.

[AAAhmed46]

Writing while the deputies find more prisoners to examine....

I noticed a huge dropoff in women after semester one. I think a huge number came, or were parentally sent for, "self defense," for fraternity row situations. Many seemed disappointed that, after the drop deadline passed, I did a session and explained that almost all abuse is partner driven and being Bruce Lee isn't the answer--it's avoiding dangerous situations, getting out of bad relationships, picking the right mate, not traveling alone, or getting intoxicated. I admitted sanchin won't help, when horizontal and drunk in a fraternity. And I told them if they SERIOUSLY wanted to fend off a larger foe they could invest in knife training, and take advantage of VA's permissive stance toward small concealed weapons, and cautioned them there is no wisdom in doing THAT unless they were willing to train hard so no tool was turned on them, and also unless they were willing to stab a human being to death if necessary. That's not an instinct too many 18-19 year old UVA sorority applicants had--or wanted to cultivate.

A lot of the remainder is testosterone poisoning, in my opinion. The stereotype holds some water here, and women are more collaborative than competitive, at least c/w men. There was a female JJ student in my class and when she rolled with my other half (who quit, tired of larger, competitive, psycho opponents) they helped each other out, providing hints and feedback, and not risking injury to win in a meaningless training session. She got tired of it and left to devote all her time to kettlebells and studies. I honestly simply will not roll with aggressive classmates right now. I'd rather learn a bit more and stay in teh game longer especially given my currnet shoulder issues. And I've had the all out matches fighting while I couldn't breathe... been there done that, moving on.

THere needs to be an environment thats very simply...in control.

I sometimes roll with a BJJ purple belt and his class. He's VERY careful who he lets in, and has kicked out students before for being too rough.

Other competitive schools i have gone too, really filter out who has aggressive drive and who does not, instead of seeing who is personable and we can get along with and who can step back.

Rick is great in regards that he makes sure we all have a dial, and develops his students from the ground up, so we have girls who actually stick to the training. Their still a minority, but they are there.

Ive found in alot of other schools that fight hard....your thrown into the fire, you buy your gloves and shin pads and you fight. You either stick to it till you percevere or you quit. Personally for me, it worked out, in that i was not willing to wait before i could spar. But it's not good for new students. THe go out and brawl mentality is great if you already developed an attack mindset.

Lots of MEN have this already, in the fact that they spent their time playing rugby or hocky or football.

I had to develop this mindset, as i sat around playing video games and reading comics(i still do)

Many woman, were culturally conditioned in a certain way, so they have to learn an attack mindset like i did.

A major fault i see in alot of schools is that the do not emphasize the attack minset. You have a teacher who has a scary mindset. But he just assumes everyone gets this if you fight enough, and doesn't actually teach it.

I can understand why one cannot spare time to teach this, especially in a competitive school. But in karate? We have to go out of our way and make sure we teach an attack mindset to woman....AND men.

But make sure they are given the chance to grow, don't just throw a cub infront of a lion. Let the cub grow first.

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick is great in regards that he makes sure we all have a dial, and develops his students from the ground up, so we have girls who actually stick to the training. Their still a minority, but they are there.

This is important, Adam.

There are times where I have to take a dangerous but promising student aside and work with them for a while one-on-one until they learn to control their bodies. Usually it's someone VERY big with a coordination and memory problem. No problemo for me. I like to be kept on my toes.

This is where I find the prearranged kumite help a lot. It isn't so much what you are doing as how you do them. The way to get good at "the dial" is to practice working with a partner a lot. With someone who hurts a lot of people, you need to pair them up with someone who can control them until they settle down.

Just last night in fact I made it a point to work extremely fast with someone doing kotekitae, and show an external party how I could manipulate someone's body without really pounding on the arm very much at all. This "softer" approach is good at tapping into the other partner's center and disrupting it. Just showing someone that this can be done is enough then to let them know that the expectations and subtle capabilities are there.

There's a fine line between "tasting the hot sauce" and allowing abuse that serves no purpose.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

Rick is great in regards that he makes sure we all have a dial, and develops his students from the ground up, so we have girls who actually stick to the training. Their still a minority, but they are there.

This is important, Adam.

There are times where I have to take a dangerous but promising student aside and work with them for a while one-on-one until they learn to control their bodies. Usually it's someone VERY big with a coordination and memory problem. No problemo for me. I like to be kept on my toes.

This is where I find the prearranged kumite help a lot. It isn't so much what you are doing as how you do them. The way to get good at "the dial" is to practice working with a partner a lot. With someone who hurts a lot of people, you need to pair them up with someone who can control them until they settle down.

Just last night in fact I made it a point to work extremely fast with someone doing kotekitae, and show an external party how I could manipulate someone's body without really pounding on the arm very much at all. This "softer" approach is good at tapping into the other partner's center and disrupting it. Just showing someone that this can be done is enough then to let them know that the expectations and subtle capabilities are there.

There's a fine line between "tasting the hot sauce" and allowing abuse that serves no purpose.

- Bill

It's important to reel in students who are being competitive when there is no need for competition, something i find most teachers do not really think about or put much focus on.

COnditioning for instance, is not a competition, it's about growth. One should never try to break the person in front of them.

Im not talking about uncoordinated students, just people who are channeling aggression on woman and inexperienced students.

[AAAhmed46]

Whoops i think im talking about something else.

My original post went all over the place like my mind.



Bear with me.

[IJ]

A student in the beginner class one semester told me he wanted to school an overly aggressive student and kicked him hard, bouncing him against a wall, and threw him, but said the student tried to wriggle out of the throw and really hurt his back. And also he'd elbowed a guy doing flow drills and blew up his nose. And stomped out someone's meniscus with a knee kick. Interesting management of an out of control student... I told him right then he wasn't going to be sparring in our club.

On the other end, I used to do a drill getting everyone (but more often women) out of a shell and used to projecting energy away from themselves just forcing them to kiai in front of the rest of the class. Some cannot use anything but their regular voice. Others just manage a little yelp. Some cannot make a sound at all. At least at first. Gotta start somewhere. There were also some ladies I could tell relished the opportunity to abandon traditional roles and enjoyed the "hit the instructor as hard as you can" drill.

[AAAhmed46]

A student in the beginner class one semester told me he wanted to school an overly aggressive student and kicked him hard, bouncing him against a wall, and threw him, but said the student tried to wriggle out of the throw and really hurt his back. And also he'd elbowed a guy doing flow drills and blew up his nose. And stomped out someone's meniscus with a knee kick. Interesting management of an out of control student... I told him right then he wasn't going to be sparring in our club.

Sadly, other schools would more then welcome him.

[IJ]

Hey, there's -do, and there's -jutsu. Gotta know what you're after.

[Bill Glasheen]

All is well and good with King Kong until nobody wants to work with him. Then no learning takes place.

One or two pointless smack-downs does not a fighter make. It takes lots and lots of time and practice and different partners and different kinds of skills to be worked and... and...

As I often say, you need to learn to do what you mean and mean what you do.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

Men train in karate for different reasons than women.

Not sure I agree here..

I always point to GEM's book on this matter, I think he hit the nail on the head.

When, especially new folks tell you *why* they train it's one of the most common uses of the 'smoke screen' response.


As far as getting hit...

I think the same issues apply mainly for men or women.. Each person has a limit and range of endurance.. Even big strong men get old and frail.

Most MMA folks I know don't go as hard on the body as is explained around here or as conducted in some classical training where this is more the focus.

Good conditioning in this regard is about going slow.. There are also other ways to condition the body that are more forgiving than pounding.

For sparring their is equipment and goal setting that should be going on.. The level of contact in my karate experience was always harder for the most part than the contact in my CMA training.. The CMA training being less so because the level of contact was determined by choice of those participating, vs a school norm.

If your partner was not up to being hit very hard you simply didn't hit them any harder than they could handle or you didn't train with them..

As far as fear, I believe in empowerment.. Backing away may not be very empowering, learning how to squash an attack and respond is.. There are also softer methods and schools with a softer focus or path.

So IMO it's not about men or women it's about the individual, training methodologies and focus of training.