You may enjoy the latest post on my blog http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/
It is a piece from Trevor Legett's 'Zen and the Ways' on not setting he mind, with the accompanying photo's.
Not Setting the Mind
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Victor Smith
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Not Setting the Mind
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
bushi no te isshinryu
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Thanks, Victor.
This reminds me of a similar thread I started earlier about a "bat wrap" problem being experienced by David Ortiz. Because of the way he was setting up his swing, he had to make a decision when/how/where to swing much earlier than he should. He was having problems catching up to the fastball, so he had to cheat a little by starting his swing earlier. This made it much easier for opposing pitchers to strike him out with change-ups.
The issue here with how to respond to the incoming knife attack is similar. The defender is attempting to use early information to commit to one response, and subsequently is set up for an attack other than what he thinks is coming in.
I see the solution is similar to Ortiz's dilemma. It's a mixture of technique and mindset. By choosing to use more core and less periphery in movement, one is able to wait much longer before committing to what is perceived to be incoming. The longer one can wait before total commitment, the better.
The advantage the martial artist has here vis-à-vis the batter is the ability to preempt. Knowing an attack is coming should be enough information to change the game by being the first to act. Unlike in baseball, nobody says you have to play by their rules.
Other thoughts come to mind here. The obsession some have with Hick's law can be brought to bear in this situation. Some insist that few responses should be taught to given situations because of the increasing time it takes to make a choice given more choices available. However... If one teaches principles over technique choices, then Hick's law becomes moot. The mind must be allowed to adapt and respond to an impossibly infinite set of situations in real life. In my opinion, the more one is able to teach many things from just a handful of basic principles of movement, the more the individual is able to adapt efficiently to the myriad situations that he is faced with in life. Being predictable in nature isn't a good thing - either for attacker or for responder. Being highly adaptable is. Both mind and movement must be fluid.
- Bill
This reminds me of a similar thread I started earlier about a "bat wrap" problem being experienced by David Ortiz. Because of the way he was setting up his swing, he had to make a decision when/how/where to swing much earlier than he should. He was having problems catching up to the fastball, so he had to cheat a little by starting his swing earlier. This made it much easier for opposing pitchers to strike him out with change-ups.
The issue here with how to respond to the incoming knife attack is similar. The defender is attempting to use early information to commit to one response, and subsequently is set up for an attack other than what he thinks is coming in.
I see the solution is similar to Ortiz's dilemma. It's a mixture of technique and mindset. By choosing to use more core and less periphery in movement, one is able to wait much longer before committing to what is perceived to be incoming. The longer one can wait before total commitment, the better.
The advantage the martial artist has here vis-à-vis the batter is the ability to preempt. Knowing an attack is coming should be enough information to change the game by being the first to act. Unlike in baseball, nobody says you have to play by their rules.
Other thoughts come to mind here. The obsession some have with Hick's law can be brought to bear in this situation. Some insist that few responses should be taught to given situations because of the increasing time it takes to make a choice given more choices available. However... If one teaches principles over technique choices, then Hick's law becomes moot. The mind must be allowed to adapt and respond to an impossibly infinite set of situations in real life. In my opinion, the more one is able to teach many things from just a handful of basic principles of movement, the more the individual is able to adapt efficiently to the myriad situations that he is faced with in life. Being predictable in nature isn't a good thing - either for attacker or for responder. Being highly adaptable is. Both mind and movement must be fluid.
- Bill
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Victor Smith
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:17 am
- Location: Derry, NH, USA
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Hi Bill,
As always I find your analysis among the most interesting across the nets.
I like this passage for the clear point it illustrates, and I agree with you the key is to have a strong understanding of the principles you draw on to respond.
The problem is the story is too simplistic for the true situation. A drawn knife on a street attack can leave almost no time to respond to an attack, it seems implausable one would specifically draw a knife for such as set up and use it for three separate attacks to make a point.
Of course perhaps things are as simplistic as the martial revenge movies illustrate, but I doubt it.
The following two video's make interesting points in their own right.
On a superficial level the first video shows how to find a way to carve free from someone countering your basic attack. Logically someone who was focusing on tanto would train in IMO.
Ogawa ryu Yoroi Tantojutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHvK3ri8kcU
The 2nd video shows tanto counters for sword attacks, or impending sword attacks. Notice how many times you don't even see the knife is drawn in the persons hand as the counter till knife slice and dice takes place.
Ogawa Ryu – Chuden Yoroi Tantojutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKfEkloueQo
I don't think even those training sequences told an entire history of knife training, but are worth watching.
As always I find your analysis among the most interesting across the nets.
I like this passage for the clear point it illustrates, and I agree with you the key is to have a strong understanding of the principles you draw on to respond.
The problem is the story is too simplistic for the true situation. A drawn knife on a street attack can leave almost no time to respond to an attack, it seems implausable one would specifically draw a knife for such as set up and use it for three separate attacks to make a point.
Of course perhaps things are as simplistic as the martial revenge movies illustrate, but I doubt it.
The following two video's make interesting points in their own right.
On a superficial level the first video shows how to find a way to carve free from someone countering your basic attack. Logically someone who was focusing on tanto would train in IMO.
Ogawa ryu Yoroi Tantojutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHvK3ri8kcU
The 2nd video shows tanto counters for sword attacks, or impending sword attacks. Notice how many times you don't even see the knife is drawn in the persons hand as the counter till knife slice and dice takes place.
Ogawa Ryu – Chuden Yoroi Tantojutsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKfEkloueQo
I don't think even those training sequences told an entire history of knife training, but are worth watching.
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
bushi no te isshinryu
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Yes, Victor, they are worth watching if only to show that every attack has a counter, and every counter has a counter.
I'm used to Filipino knife, so I find the Ogawa Ryu tonto interesting. I prefer the slashing over the stabbing - particularly since I spent so many years in the dog lab doing surgery. Let's just say I know where things are, and would find slashing an easier approach to getting the job done with the typical loss of fine motor coordination.
Also knowing what I know, I'd hate to wait as long as the uke is waiting in the first video. My approach would be more like that in the second video where the responder never lets the swordsman get the sword out. Plus... grabbing and doing nothing else until the bearer of the tanto figures out what next seems both unrealistic and handicapping. If there isn't constant movement until submission, escape, or ippon, then the knife always wins.
But these are simple prearranged kumite. One has to start somewhere. Similar criticisms are given for our own yakusoku and bunkai kumite.
- Bill
I'm used to Filipino knife, so I find the Ogawa Ryu tonto interesting. I prefer the slashing over the stabbing - particularly since I spent so many years in the dog lab doing surgery. Let's just say I know where things are, and would find slashing an easier approach to getting the job done with the typical loss of fine motor coordination.
Also knowing what I know, I'd hate to wait as long as the uke is waiting in the first video. My approach would be more like that in the second video where the responder never lets the swordsman get the sword out. Plus... grabbing and doing nothing else until the bearer of the tanto figures out what next seems both unrealistic and handicapping. If there isn't constant movement until submission, escape, or ippon, then the knife always wins.
But these are simple prearranged kumite. One has to start somewhere. Similar criticisms are given for our own yakusoku and bunkai kumite.
- Bill
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Victor Smith
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:17 am
- Location: Derry, NH, USA
- Contact:
Hi Bill,
Yes everyone has to start somewhere, to learn how to move into a space and use it and beginning tools are never the complete art.
The small amount of tanto training I received would actually be described as both slashing and thrusting technique.
From a closed position (blade alongside the arm, the knife defensively slashes across the attacking arm, then the blade is shifted to open position, to slash and then thrust into the attackers body, ending with it carving its way out.
I've never been but a duffer, but my instructor makes the shifts sing.
Slashing also makes up a big part of how the Bando short stick we practice would be done with a knife too.
I really believe in track and field, if one sees the knife, run like blazes, but if i was training one to use the knife offensively, my approach would be to hold it so it wasn't seen, and the surprise, which of course isn't pleasant to contemplate.
My father was a butcher in Pennsylvania and I appreciate what knives do.
Yes everyone has to start somewhere, to learn how to move into a space and use it and beginning tools are never the complete art.
The small amount of tanto training I received would actually be described as both slashing and thrusting technique.
From a closed position (blade alongside the arm, the knife defensively slashes across the attacking arm, then the blade is shifted to open position, to slash and then thrust into the attackers body, ending with it carving its way out.
I've never been but a duffer, but my instructor makes the shifts sing.
Slashing also makes up a big part of how the Bando short stick we practice would be done with a knife too.
I really believe in track and field, if one sees the knife, run like blazes, but if i was training one to use the knife offensively, my approach would be to hold it so it wasn't seen, and the surprise, which of course isn't pleasant to contemplate.
My father was a butcher in Pennsylvania and I appreciate what knives do.
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
bushi no te isshinryu
A lot of nice counters to the counter in the Ogawa ryu Yoroi Tantojutsu video, though her finishes could be better.
Word! A lot of karate people like to chase stuff on their periphery with their own peripheral techniques and end up either both chasing hands getting nowhere, or one guy getting suckered into a trap. Waiting can also sometimes result in the other guy thinking he's succeeding up until the time he's trapped.It's a mixture of technique and mindset. By choosing to use more core and less periphery in movement, one is able to wait much longer before committing to what is perceived to be incoming. The longer one can wait before total commitment, the better.
I was dreaming of the past...
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jorvik
I have the book Zen and the ways and I've read other stuff by Trevor Leggett and it is good stuff...in one of his other books he tells of something called "Dragon masks"..how it is hard to beat your teacher or a senior and when you do it breaks a "Dragon mask".....also when he was at the Kodokan there was a really old bloke there who was extremly good but a bit psychotic, and when he put a lock on you he would but an extra twist in it....an extra bit of nastiness 
....but he knew some great techniques.and so Trevor trained with him....and learned a lot.and after a time the guy forgot to put the extra nastiness in, because he was with somebody not afraid to take it 
.............great old Samura definitions in "The Ways".........the difference between Quick and Fast..fast is a horse running, quick is a bolt of lightning ( I try for quick
With the knife techniques I dunno..clever and maybe makes a point.buuuuuuuuut I really don't believe it when you have folks like Kuroda Tetsuzan about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5IA7VRin8&NR=1
also you got people like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGvT0s03cY&NR=1
Some nice atemi wazi with the sword handle ....nice people and serious about their art, and that is it with classical budo, there is some very clever stuff around..wouldn't work against an armalite rifle but there you go 
....but he knew some great techniques.and so Trevor trained with him....and learned a lot.and after a time the guy forgot to put the extra nastiness in, because he was with somebody not afraid to take it .............great old Samura definitions in "The Ways".........the difference between Quick and Fast..fast is a horse running, quick is a bolt of lightning ( I try for quick With the knife techniques I dunno..clever and maybe makes a point.buuuuuuuuut I really don't believe it when you have folks like Kuroda Tetsuzan about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5IA7VRin8&NR=1
also you got people like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGvT0s03cY&NR=1
Some nice atemi wazi with the sword handle
....nice people and serious about their art, and that is it with classical budo, there is some very clever stuff around..wouldn't work against an armalite rifle but there you go -
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You can never beat the combination of better talent and execution. Boogeyman analysis leads to paralysis, and that gets you nowhere. However you can admire the rare, "unbeatable" genius, and try to learn from them.jorvik wrote:
I really don't believe it when you have folks like Kuroda Tetsuzan about
Training is about a relative improvement, and should never be about an absolute level of proficiency better than all comers. The latter can never be achieved. I prefer the Nike approach - just do it. Love of process - hopefully evidence-based - is what it's all about.
- Bill
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jorvik
