http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 18Q5CK.DTL
This is something interesting someone sent me. Basically, the story is Nathan Pritikin for the back; someone with low back pain learns about other cultures where it is absent, and goes and follows people around as they lift lots of weigh, learn over in the field all day, etc. Her advice is a less rounded spine (no kyphosis), without any pelvis tuck ("ducky butt, not tucky butt") with lots of details about how to engage abdominal muscles, sit, stand, walk, lift, etc. Some of this is obvious--don't slouch with your shoulders rolled forward--but its worth noting that my posture around the time of my rotator cuff problems was noted to have a rounded upper back and shoulders rolled forward, which I've largely resolved by doing a bunch of weight work for my back and focusing on improving my posture.
I know sanchin doesn't mandate the shoulders being rolled forward, but the abdominal crunching, elbows in front, pelvis tucked mandate is interestingly about opposite to the advice this lady gives (there's more on the internet, including some seminars she's given complete with photos of people in other cultures and how they move and hold themselves). Without throwing myself to this stuff with glowing praise, a lot seems to make sense, and I wonder if it wouldn't hurt to emphasize being able to move into sanchin posture just as needed and focus on preventing a slouchy, shoulders forward, butt in flavor to our postures outside of class.
Alright, everyone weigh in...
Posture and back pain
Moderator: Available
Posture and back pain
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Not so fast on the critique, Ian, although I understand the admonition.
As for Sanchin and the pelvic tuck... I've advanced a bit from what I originally have been teaching on this, Ian. After many hundreds of hours experimenting with Nakamatsu-style body wave mechanics and looking at pictures of Uechi Kanei's body wave front kicks, I don't think of Sanchin as a rigid entity any more.
So now when people do the classic turn BEFORE a circle and front kick in kata, I tell them that one of the chief reasons for the turn isn't so much to face a new bad guy, but to remind you that it's time to set up the pre-stretch before whipping the leg out with the core muscles. The pre-stretch for this technique then is to turn the heels out just a little too much, let the booty go out a bit (ducky butt if you will), and then snap the pelvis under with femur rotation in the hip sockets after lifting the knee. The effect is to make your leg like a leather whip. Serendipitously you find your arms pulling in a bit - just like the pictures of Kanei Uechi. Go figure...
Nakamatsu mechanics similarly start with a bit of "ducky butt", although it happens one half of back at a time (one femoral crease at a time) before snapping the pelvis under to make "the wave" go up the spine and out the arm.
Mind you, these mechanics need to be minimized once a person understands them. But it's all there in some of the great Okinawan masters with "natural" mechanics.
As for lifting and such, well the important thing is not to lock the knees. Yes, that means tucking the booty under, and minimizing lumbar lordosis. However when doing squats now, I do a slight lumbar lordosis (ducky butt) at the bottom of the squat. I find that this just works better. It's less stress on the lower back muscles. Then the first thing I do coming up is to tuck that butt while extending the legs. Good deal! Now I gets some abdominal work in the squats.
The stuff about getting rid of the thoracic kyphosis is a big "Duh!" Connecting this to the action of the lumbar region is just nuts, Ian. Methinks this woman's mechanics got screwed up after her back surgery, and she's having problems with getting different parts of the spine to do things independently.
BTW, I have a newfound appreciation for a few of the junbi undo. I really like the back twisty exercise. However it needs to be done (and taught) correctly. I have however thrown a few of the really stupid junbi undo away, like the knee circles. I have instead choreographed a few new ones to take their place.
Now... As for what you do when not in Sanchin, I agree that a little lumbar lordosis is natural and good, as is a slight bend of the knees. Both these curves give you postural shock absorption. Or to use engineering parlance, they serve as a low pass filter to life's impulse functions.
And yes, get rid of the Igor hunch, or the severe thoracic kyphosis. I see a lot of guys in the gym with this problem. A lot of it is too much chest work and no upper back work. You need the agonists and antagonists to have balanced strength so that the posture can be held erect. Too much time hunched over a keyboard can also be a problem. Learn to throw the shoulders back and "Sit up straight!"
Sitting? Many folks now are recommending chairs that lean back a bit. It makes sense when you think about it.
- Bill
So she's saying that minimizing lumbar lordosis CAUSES thoracic kyphosis. Oh really? Sorry, but that's bullhockey. If you ask me, she needs a few classes in bellydancing, or some other physical activity which can teach her selective muscle contraction of core muscles."Tucked tailbones create depressed postures, rounding the shoulders and upper back," she says. "Like a dog when it's anxious, with its tail between its legs. Better structure means less pain, more confidence in your health. You look better and people respond to you differently."
As for Sanchin and the pelvic tuck... I've advanced a bit from what I originally have been teaching on this, Ian. After many hundreds of hours experimenting with Nakamatsu-style body wave mechanics and looking at pictures of Uechi Kanei's body wave front kicks, I don't think of Sanchin as a rigid entity any more.
So now when people do the classic turn BEFORE a circle and front kick in kata, I tell them that one of the chief reasons for the turn isn't so much to face a new bad guy, but to remind you that it's time to set up the pre-stretch before whipping the leg out with the core muscles. The pre-stretch for this technique then is to turn the heels out just a little too much, let the booty go out a bit (ducky butt if you will), and then snap the pelvis under with femur rotation in the hip sockets after lifting the knee. The effect is to make your leg like a leather whip. Serendipitously you find your arms pulling in a bit - just like the pictures of Kanei Uechi. Go figure...
Nakamatsu mechanics similarly start with a bit of "ducky butt", although it happens one half of back at a time (one femoral crease at a time) before snapping the pelvis under to make "the wave" go up the spine and out the arm.
Mind you, these mechanics need to be minimized once a person understands them. But it's all there in some of the great Okinawan masters with "natural" mechanics.
As for lifting and such, well the important thing is not to lock the knees. Yes, that means tucking the booty under, and minimizing lumbar lordosis. However when doing squats now, I do a slight lumbar lordosis (ducky butt) at the bottom of the squat. I find that this just works better. It's less stress on the lower back muscles. Then the first thing I do coming up is to tuck that butt while extending the legs. Good deal! Now I gets some abdominal work in the squats.
The stuff about getting rid of the thoracic kyphosis is a big "Duh!" Connecting this to the action of the lumbar region is just nuts, Ian. Methinks this woman's mechanics got screwed up after her back surgery, and she's having problems with getting different parts of the spine to do things independently.
BTW, I have a newfound appreciation for a few of the junbi undo. I really like the back twisty exercise. However it needs to be done (and taught) correctly. I have however thrown a few of the really stupid junbi undo away, like the knee circles. I have instead choreographed a few new ones to take their place.
Now... As for what you do when not in Sanchin, I agree that a little lumbar lordosis is natural and good, as is a slight bend of the knees. Both these curves give you postural shock absorption. Or to use engineering parlance, they serve as a low pass filter to life's impulse functions.
And yes, get rid of the Igor hunch, or the severe thoracic kyphosis. I see a lot of guys in the gym with this problem. A lot of it is too much chest work and no upper back work. You need the agonists and antagonists to have balanced strength so that the posture can be held erect. Too much time hunched over a keyboard can also be a problem. Learn to throw the shoulders back and "Sit up straight!"
Sitting? Many folks now are recommending chairs that lean back a bit. It makes sense when you think about it.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bending forward
This is where the material presented by Ian may have SOME traction. The best way I can describe what I teach is to explain how we do the "scoops and twists" junbi undo.
In general, I am against ballistic stretching. Bouncing in a stretch is a bad idea. All you do is trigger the dynamic stretch reflex, which makes the muscle that you're trying to stretch contract. But as a warm-up, well it's OK. Just SLOOOWWW up-and-down motions.
On the scoops, I tell people first to get some lumbar lordosis (ducky butt) before bending forward. Don't think of reaching down with the head. Instead, go for touching your belly on the thighs. Slow scoops out and back with the lumbar lordosis, or an inward curve of the lower back. Try not to engage in thoracic kyphosis, or a hunching of the upper back.
However...
Once you get erect and get ready to do the twists to either side, I tell folks first to TUCK THE HIPS. You don't want to be twisting a curvy spine. Not good. Straighten it out, and THEN twist it.
Alternate between ducky butt for the scoops and tucky butt for the twists. This way the back is protected, and you get a really good back workout while also warming up and stretching the hamstrings and glutes.
On stretching...
This too is where I implore people to get lumbar lordosis before bending forward. When spreading the legs and going first to one leg and then to the next, I tell people not to think of putting the head on the leg. Instead, curve the lower back IN and try to touch the belly button to the thigh. Meanwhile, try to touch you chin to your big toe. THIS I believe is what our New Age back guru is trying to preach.
In general when bending over - if you must - you SHOULD do it with lumbar lordosis or a ducky butt. If not, you get kyphosis of the entire back - including the lumbar region. This is where people get into big trouble.
And instead of bending over, why not bend the knees and squat?
This is especially important when lifting.
- Bill
This is where the material presented by Ian may have SOME traction. The best way I can describe what I teach is to explain how we do the "scoops and twists" junbi undo.
In general, I am against ballistic stretching. Bouncing in a stretch is a bad idea. All you do is trigger the dynamic stretch reflex, which makes the muscle that you're trying to stretch contract. But as a warm-up, well it's OK. Just SLOOOWWW up-and-down motions.
On the scoops, I tell people first to get some lumbar lordosis (ducky butt) before bending forward. Don't think of reaching down with the head. Instead, go for touching your belly on the thighs. Slow scoops out and back with the lumbar lordosis, or an inward curve of the lower back. Try not to engage in thoracic kyphosis, or a hunching of the upper back.
However...
Once you get erect and get ready to do the twists to either side, I tell folks first to TUCK THE HIPS. You don't want to be twisting a curvy spine. Not good. Straighten it out, and THEN twist it.
Alternate between ducky butt for the scoops and tucky butt for the twists. This way the back is protected, and you get a really good back workout while also warming up and stretching the hamstrings and glutes.
On stretching...
This too is where I implore people to get lumbar lordosis before bending forward. When spreading the legs and going first to one leg and then to the next, I tell people not to think of putting the head on the leg. Instead, curve the lower back IN and try to touch the belly button to the thigh. Meanwhile, try to touch you chin to your big toe. THIS I believe is what our New Age back guru is trying to preach.
In general when bending over - if you must - you SHOULD do it with lumbar lordosis or a ducky butt. If not, you get kyphosis of the entire back - including the lumbar region. This is where people get into big trouble.
And instead of bending over, why not bend the knees and squat?
This is especially important when lifting.- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
For the clinically challenged, I've included a few pictures to show what I'm talking about. I've tried using medical language in my karate class (lordosis, supinate, etc.) because precise work demands precise language. Yes, I sometimes say "tuck the booty" if it gets the job done. But then if you're going to teach sex ed, you say penis instead of tallywhacker and vagina instead of pussy. You get the idea...
This is a picture of the spine which shows all the regions. And yes, I use these terms when teaching. We teachers should all sound like we've had some education. It's only professional.
This is a slight to extreme example of lordosis, or curving the spine in (in the front/back plane). Generally when we use the word lordosis, the lumbar (small of the back) region is what we're talking about. It's difficult (but not impossible) to get lordosis for example in the thoracic or in-between the shoulder blades region.
This is kyphosis, or curving the spine out. Mostly people are referring to the thoracic or in-between the shoulder blades region when talking about kyphosis. It is however common to see people enagaged in lumbar kyphosis when doing stretching. Note: that is a VERY bad thing!
This picture shows cervical (neck) and lumbar (small of back) lordosis, and thoracic (between shoulder blades) kyphosis - all in a "natural" posture.
And since I have some students who do this (causing me to need precise language to correct the problem), this is scoliosis. That is a side-to-side bend as opposed to front-to-back bend. And no, this isn't "healthy" spines.
It is however possible for a person with a flexible spine to make it scoliose. There are dance moves for that. But I have seen people do this in Sanchin thrusts, for whatever reason. With one person I thought he was lifting his shoulder. Nope... he was bending the back. It took a while for me to figure that out; then I was able to correct the problem.
- Bill
This is a picture of the spine which shows all the regions. And yes, I use these terms when teaching. We teachers should all sound like we've had some education. It's only professional.
This is a slight to extreme example of lordosis, or curving the spine in (in the front/back plane). Generally when we use the word lordosis, the lumbar (small of the back) region is what we're talking about. It's difficult (but not impossible) to get lordosis for example in the thoracic or in-between the shoulder blades region.
This is kyphosis, or curving the spine out. Mostly people are referring to the thoracic or in-between the shoulder blades region when talking about kyphosis. It is however common to see people enagaged in lumbar kyphosis when doing stretching. Note: that is a VERY bad thing!
This picture shows cervical (neck) and lumbar (small of back) lordosis, and thoracic (between shoulder blades) kyphosis - all in a "natural" posture.
And since I have some students who do this (causing me to need precise language to correct the problem), this is scoliosis. That is a side-to-side bend as opposed to front-to-back bend. And no, this isn't "healthy" spines.
It is however possible for a person with a flexible spine to make it scoliose. There are dance moves for that. But I have seen people do this in Sanchin thrusts, for whatever reason. With one person I thought he was lifting his shoulder. Nope... he was bending the back. It took a while for me to figure that out; then I was able to correct the problem.
- Bill
Bill, don't worry about me trying to redefine uechi posture. I'm talking about other times, and general habits for most americans, not necessarily martial artists. She's just giving average people advice. Watching her videos, it is quite interesting how different cultures bend and stand and lift. It's not hard science, but just as we could guess something about eating habits explains why some parts of the world have no anorexia nervosa and others have very high gastric cancer rates, I do believe the way the examples she gave for bending and carrying loads from some african cultures, paired with the report that low back pain is not one of their afflictions, is worth noting. She also hedges and admits these are just her observation unlike the colon cleanse witch doctors, etc, and doesn't over promise. She comes off as trustworthy (initial observation from me).
Anyhoo, you partly agreed with many of her points. I don't think there are irreconcilable issues where you did differ. For example, she says tucking the tailbone in leads to rounded shoulders. And I tend to agree that these things travel together in average folk. She's not talking to Uechi masters here. If Uechi is done right, this shouldn't happen--but I do see it in the real world outside of class. Just as Goju dynamic tension does not automatically equal pressure cooker neck vein bulging strain, but can end up that way if not done right, I do recall a lot of Uechi people I've seen hunched over trying to get their elbows in front. It's not exactly an open chested, relaxed posture to carry throughout a day--which is not to say its not healthful and ok if done right, but we should make sure people don't have posture problems when they're not in sanchin. Good posture in sanchin is the starting point, of course.
I had some posture issues despite years of Uechi and resolving them has helped with back and sholder pains. This isn't like a light switch for me, but it has made me more posture conscious, and I will be more aware of assessing posture in, say, the hordes of jail patients who come to jail clinic complaining of low back pain demanding pain meds.
Lastly, one ducky butt issue that's worth expanding a little... with a tucked pelvis, *she claims* that flexion of the lumbar spine pushes dics meant to be cylindrical into wedge shapes and implies this is the cause of some ofl the L5-S1 disc disease we suffer from in the USA. We don't get this level of detail in anatomy and it's not something that comes up in medicine training either, so I'm not equipped to refute or support the hypothesis at present. I'm doing a trial with an N of one to see what's noticeable with attention to an upright, elongated spine, broad chest, duckier butt posture walking and sitting for a while.
Certainly it makes some difference... I recall one of the janitors stopping me to ask if I was an attending doctor once. She said she could tell--by my confidant posture and gait. I had been focusing on many of the same points as this person recommends that day, but long before I heard of her, and someone stopped to tell me they noticed.
Anyhoo, you partly agreed with many of her points. I don't think there are irreconcilable issues where you did differ. For example, she says tucking the tailbone in leads to rounded shoulders. And I tend to agree that these things travel together in average folk. She's not talking to Uechi masters here. If Uechi is done right, this shouldn't happen--but I do see it in the real world outside of class. Just as Goju dynamic tension does not automatically equal pressure cooker neck vein bulging strain, but can end up that way if not done right, I do recall a lot of Uechi people I've seen hunched over trying to get their elbows in front. It's not exactly an open chested, relaxed posture to carry throughout a day--which is not to say its not healthful and ok if done right, but we should make sure people don't have posture problems when they're not in sanchin. Good posture in sanchin is the starting point, of course.
I had some posture issues despite years of Uechi and resolving them has helped with back and sholder pains. This isn't like a light switch for me, but it has made me more posture conscious, and I will be more aware of assessing posture in, say, the hordes of jail patients who come to jail clinic complaining of low back pain demanding pain meds.
Lastly, one ducky butt issue that's worth expanding a little... with a tucked pelvis, *she claims* that flexion of the lumbar spine pushes dics meant to be cylindrical into wedge shapes and implies this is the cause of some ofl the L5-S1 disc disease we suffer from in the USA. We don't get this level of detail in anatomy and it's not something that comes up in medicine training either, so I'm not equipped to refute or support the hypothesis at present. I'm doing a trial with an N of one to see what's noticeable with attention to an upright, elongated spine, broad chest, duckier butt posture walking and sitting for a while.
Certainly it makes some difference... I recall one of the janitors stopping me to ask if I was an attending doctor once. She said she could tell--by my confidant posture and gait. I had been focusing on many of the same points as this person recommends that day, but long before I heard of her, and someone stopped to tell me they noticed.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
This is a point I make to many of my beginner students when I start working on their posture in Sanchin. If you are in an erect posture, it screams "I am confident!" and "I will not be a victim!" People do notice.IJ wrote:
Certainly it makes some difference... I recall one of the janitors stopping me to ask if I was an attending doctor once. She said she could tell--by my confidant posture and gait. I had been focusing on many of the same points as this person recommends that day, but long before I heard of her, and someone stopped to tell me they noticed.
As they say, the best fight is the fight never fought. If you don't look like a victim, the predator will pass you by and find an easier target.
- Bill
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f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
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- Location: Valhalla
Once in the early days of my school I had to go teach after throwing out my lower back pretty good. (ever call a temp agency and ask for a Uechi teacher?) If you have a school you can't be sick. Anyway, after a few Sanchins My back began feeling better and was eventually 90% better. So I'm kind of a firm believer in the therapeutic value of kata.
F.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
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