Hi! At our dojo you are not allowed to spar til you're a sankyu. So, here I am a 31 year old woman who's now a brown belt eager to spar! I've only done it twice with two different male blackbelts, and though I love it, I find I'm really intimidated by them. I've found a woman who will spar with me, and I will work with her til I'm more comfortable with sparring in general. But, How can I become more comfortable against men? I'm about 5'3" on the smaller side. I don't know if it's their size and/or strength that's intimidating, or what!!!!
Any advice?
sparring
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natalie lane
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: dartmouth, ns canada
sparring
Trinity-
Glad to hear that you are sparring!
Practice, practice, practice. The more you spar, the more confidence you will build in your abilities.
Do not spar with anyone who you feel may be deliberately trying to intimidate or hurt you or prove that they are superior.
Don't limit yourself to sparring with women or men, variety is great to find out which techniques work for you against different sized opponents.
Get some good sparring equipment that you like and are comfortable with. I use a chest protector under my gi all the time. It is called "turtle cups" and is similar to a sport bra. No one can tell I am wearing it.
I also use a WIPSS mouthguard, the same type that Sensei Mattson is selling here on his site. These things will help you feel protected and less intimidated.
Try to breathe and tell yourself to mentally relax while you spar. Newbies usually get very tense, and it's hard to move quickly when your muscles are stiff. Since you are smaller than most of the people you will be training with, stay moving on the balls of your feet, and be fast!
Personally, I have always felt strange sparring with women, not men, because most of the people I have trained with are men. But I hope that this helps you out a bit.
Peace,
Natalie
Glad to hear that you are sparring!
Practice, practice, practice. The more you spar, the more confidence you will build in your abilities.
Do not spar with anyone who you feel may be deliberately trying to intimidate or hurt you or prove that they are superior.
Don't limit yourself to sparring with women or men, variety is great to find out which techniques work for you against different sized opponents.
Get some good sparring equipment that you like and are comfortable with. I use a chest protector under my gi all the time. It is called "turtle cups" and is similar to a sport bra. No one can tell I am wearing it.
I also use a WIPSS mouthguard, the same type that Sensei Mattson is selling here on his site. These things will help you feel protected and less intimidated.
Try to breathe and tell yourself to mentally relax while you spar. Newbies usually get very tense, and it's hard to move quickly when your muscles are stiff. Since you are smaller than most of the people you will be training with, stay moving on the balls of your feet, and be fast!
Personally, I have always felt strange sparring with women, not men, because most of the people I have trained with are men. But I hope that this helps you out a bit.
Peace,
Natalie
sparring
Some excerpts from Rene Denfeld’s essay, “Are Women the Weaker Sex?” This piece is included in the anthology, “Martial Arts are not just for Kicking Butt”, edited by Antonio Cuevas and Jennifer Lee, North Alantic Books, Berkely, CA.
The first time I got into the ring to spar, I was so nervous, my knees were shaking... There was only one thought in my mind: I am going to get hit. The idea frightened me more than I had imagined. Once I realized -- at gut level -- that getting punched was unavoidable, I ran into twenty six years of social indoctrination like a brick wall. I was afraid I would freeze. I was afraid it would hurt. I had visions of women being hit in the movies: cringing, helpless, pleading...
The bell rang. My sparring partner looked up at me from under his helmet, bit his lips,. and crossed himself. He shifted forward slightly, his legs moving under the long trunks. I forced myself forward, uncertain, my feet numb and clumsy.
My training returned: I threw out a few jabs. Nervous, he responded: a stinging jab to my nose. I lunged at him, overexcited, trying to hit him with my jabs, throwing wild rights. he slapped me politely on the ribs, landed a few more jabs.
And I thought, that doesnt’ hurt so bad. Somehow, that realization was more exciting and fulfilling than I could ever had imagined. I was being hit by a man. But I wasn’t falling to pieces. I was going to be okay.
I hit him back as well as I could, lacking his skills yet having just as much perseverance... I was going too fast, getting too wound up... Jess (the trainer) made a soothing sound from the side of the ring.
We kept eye contact the entire time. Even in the heat of battle -- how curious, that tempestuous term for waht turns out to be so quiet, almost peaceful -- I noticed little things: his eyelashes, the shadow by the cusp of his nose...
Twack. I saw that coming, the rights, and still walked directly into it. When you get smacked in the nose like that, it is quick, stunning -- painless in an odd way, and yet distrubing: a thick, diffuse, blotting sensation...
Time held still, counted only by blows: a jaw rattling left hook to my chin, a surprising stunning straight right, a jabbing left peppering my face. Later, I became aware how much he was babying me -- how light the punches actually were. At the same time, they seemed more than enough. Boxers call it "glove-shy": the sense of shock at being hit, not because of the pain, but more from the invasion of privacy, the body shock of it. You close your eyes involuntarily. Only through sparring do you eventually lose your glove shyness, learn how to look straight into your partner’s eyes, and cease to blink when hit.
When the bell rang, we stopped immediately. We didn’t grin at each other and slap our gloves together. that would come later. But we did smile shyly at each other. And, I walked out of that ring ring feeling as if I were floating. I had done it.
I have sparred with men since. Whom else and I going to spar against, without any other women in the gym who compete?
At that time, most of the men at the gym were much better than I. They could hold me off with their fists, show off. Questions of superiority were moot. The playing field wasn’t equal, and there was no pretense it should be. Beginning fighters always start with more experienced fighters, because putting two green boxers in the ring is just asking for an out-of-control punching match. A more experienced fighter can teach without hurtng a newer fighter or getting hurt himself.
Now sometimes I’m the more experienced fighter climbing through the ropes...
[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-20-99).]
The first time I got into the ring to spar, I was so nervous, my knees were shaking... There was only one thought in my mind: I am going to get hit. The idea frightened me more than I had imagined. Once I realized -- at gut level -- that getting punched was unavoidable, I ran into twenty six years of social indoctrination like a brick wall. I was afraid I would freeze. I was afraid it would hurt. I had visions of women being hit in the movies: cringing, helpless, pleading...
The bell rang. My sparring partner looked up at me from under his helmet, bit his lips,. and crossed himself. He shifted forward slightly, his legs moving under the long trunks. I forced myself forward, uncertain, my feet numb and clumsy.
My training returned: I threw out a few jabs. Nervous, he responded: a stinging jab to my nose. I lunged at him, overexcited, trying to hit him with my jabs, throwing wild rights. he slapped me politely on the ribs, landed a few more jabs.
And I thought, that doesnt’ hurt so bad. Somehow, that realization was more exciting and fulfilling than I could ever had imagined. I was being hit by a man. But I wasn’t falling to pieces. I was going to be okay.
I hit him back as well as I could, lacking his skills yet having just as much perseverance... I was going too fast, getting too wound up... Jess (the trainer) made a soothing sound from the side of the ring.
We kept eye contact the entire time. Even in the heat of battle -- how curious, that tempestuous term for waht turns out to be so quiet, almost peaceful -- I noticed little things: his eyelashes, the shadow by the cusp of his nose...
Twack. I saw that coming, the rights, and still walked directly into it. When you get smacked in the nose like that, it is quick, stunning -- painless in an odd way, and yet distrubing: a thick, diffuse, blotting sensation...
Time held still, counted only by blows: a jaw rattling left hook to my chin, a surprising stunning straight right, a jabbing left peppering my face. Later, I became aware how much he was babying me -- how light the punches actually were. At the same time, they seemed more than enough. Boxers call it "glove-shy": the sense of shock at being hit, not because of the pain, but more from the invasion of privacy, the body shock of it. You close your eyes involuntarily. Only through sparring do you eventually lose your glove shyness, learn how to look straight into your partner’s eyes, and cease to blink when hit.
When the bell rang, we stopped immediately. We didn’t grin at each other and slap our gloves together. that would come later. But we did smile shyly at each other. And, I walked out of that ring ring feeling as if I were floating. I had done it.
I have sparred with men since. Whom else and I going to spar against, without any other women in the gym who compete?
At that time, most of the men at the gym were much better than I. They could hold me off with their fists, show off. Questions of superiority were moot. The playing field wasn’t equal, and there was no pretense it should be. Beginning fighters always start with more experienced fighters, because putting two green boxers in the ring is just asking for an out-of-control punching match. A more experienced fighter can teach without hurtng a newer fighter or getting hurt himself.
Now sometimes I’m the more experienced fighter climbing through the ropes...
[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-20-99).]
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Jason Bernard
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Evansville, IN, USA
- Contact:
sparring
A few things.
1) I assume that you don't feel that these guys are trying to hurt you (see #2 below). This being the case ... relax, they aren't trying to hurt you (it beared being repeated).
If you can relax, and remember that it is unlikely that any harm will come to you, and remember that they want to learn and teach a lot of the intimidation should go away.
2) Every now and then there are macho jerks who think that they have to destroy people (women and men) in the dojo to show how tough they are. If you encounter such a person it would be a good idea to talk to the instructor about it.
3) Whatever you do, please don't go psycho. I have met women who act like the guys in #2 above. They think they have something to prove and go all out to hurt their sparring partners. This is not a good thing, and if you do this expect retaliation (it doesn't sound to me like you are doing this).
4) Develop a strong spirit. Be confident that you are growing a martial artist. This is most important, and must be the primary goal of the martial artist since it is at the heart of everything you do. As you develop strong spirit you will become less and less intimidated.
5) Speak to yourself. Control the inner voice, and tell yourself (as in #1 above) that I do not need to be intimidated.
As David said, we all start intimidated because we all start green. This is part of #3 above. We all start green and grow, enjoy the experience and remember what it is like to be the rookie because someday maybe you will be the veteran and need to teach the intimidated rookie.
Best of luck!
Osu!
Jason
1) I assume that you don't feel that these guys are trying to hurt you (see #2 below). This being the case ... relax, they aren't trying to hurt you (it beared being repeated).
If you can relax, and remember that it is unlikely that any harm will come to you, and remember that they want to learn and teach a lot of the intimidation should go away.2) Every now and then there are macho jerks who think that they have to destroy people (women and men) in the dojo to show how tough they are. If you encounter such a person it would be a good idea to talk to the instructor about it.
3) Whatever you do, please don't go psycho. I have met women who act like the guys in #2 above. They think they have something to prove and go all out to hurt their sparring partners. This is not a good thing, and if you do this expect retaliation (it doesn't sound to me like you are doing this).
4) Develop a strong spirit. Be confident that you are growing a martial artist. This is most important, and must be the primary goal of the martial artist since it is at the heart of everything you do. As you develop strong spirit you will become less and less intimidated.
5) Speak to yourself. Control the inner voice, and tell yourself (as in #1 above) that I do not need to be intimidated.
As David said, we all start intimidated because we all start green. This is part of #3 above. We all start green and grow, enjoy the experience and remember what it is like to be the rookie because someday maybe you will be the veteran and need to teach the intimidated rookie.
Best of luck!
Osu!
Jason
sparring
Hello all,
Excellent thread. Thanks especially to David for the quoted remarks of a woman when she was new to sparring.
My point of view takes into account my smallish body size, but also the visual memory of what David, of a similar stature, or my sensei, look like in sparring. I note what hurts, eg what areas were hit enough to cause pain or bruising, and then try to figure out how to avoid that in the future. As far as attacks go, well, if my teacher (partner) is kind enough to leave an area open, I will "run the risk" of trying to tag it. Most of the time my offensive will result in a barn-sized open area for my "opponent" to tag in response. I therefore think choice of partner, and "shaping" your partner to your level of skill and preferences regarding pain, are critical.
Michael
Excellent thread. Thanks especially to David for the quoted remarks of a woman when she was new to sparring.
My point of view takes into account my smallish body size, but also the visual memory of what David, of a similar stature, or my sensei, look like in sparring. I note what hurts, eg what areas were hit enough to cause pain or bruising, and then try to figure out how to avoid that in the future. As far as attacks go, well, if my teacher (partner) is kind enough to leave an area open, I will "run the risk" of trying to tag it. Most of the time my offensive will result in a barn-sized open area for my "opponent" to tag in response. I therefore think choice of partner, and "shaping" your partner to your level of skill and preferences regarding pain, are critical.
Michael
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Jason Bernard
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Evansville, IN, USA
- Contact:
sparring
I think that is because if a woman has to defend herself they will likely be defending themselves against a man. And most people equate sparring with self defense practice (which isn't unwarrented).
Osu!
Jason
Osu!
Jason
sparring
I think JD is on the right track. Last night I watched two dan level women protesting that they just couldn't risk hurting each other. The younger alluded to the fact that the older was a mother. I think women may generally appreciate a bit higher level of intensity from male partners. On the other hand, females with "an attitude" challenge me with their focused energy, often with high, hard kicks. As JD undoubtedly appreciates, sometimes "pushing the limits" of taboos can be a thrill, and more importantly, a growth-promoting experience. My guess is that such limit testing occurs more easily with male partners. Previous threads have touched upon the pregnant female in training. Talk about challenge! Imagine a controlled strike toward the abdomen in such a partner. It's a whole order of magnitude beyond the care we exert when taking down a partner with a trick knee, for example.
sparring
Lots of interesting points, all with degrees of validity depending on the individual involved.
As it turned out my practice yesterday included myself and two women. One is a beginner and the other intermediate. Sparring, I forced the intensity according to their respective levels. Nothing beyond the limits, but at the limit of challenge. When they sparred each other the intensity level dropped however. It could be for the reasons that Jason and Doctor X pointed out. There could also be the "glove shyness" factor that Rene Denfeld expressed in her piece. The glove shyness takes repeated experience to overcome. Some mental conditioning takes place by the reflex drills that I like to use. Depending on the skill level, we move increasingly towards making real contact. Block/parry/move or be hit. Inevitably some contact is made and the person learns to accept it and go on. If not, martial practice is not for the person.
I never really got into depth about what they feel sparring regarding male vs female, or more advanced person against a novice. I guess I never really cared because I just know that they have to develop intensity and a certain level of fearlessness if they are to apply their skills in real life. I will have to ask them to share their thoughts here if they are willing.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-22-99).]
As it turned out my practice yesterday included myself and two women. One is a beginner and the other intermediate. Sparring, I forced the intensity according to their respective levels. Nothing beyond the limits, but at the limit of challenge. When they sparred each other the intensity level dropped however. It could be for the reasons that Jason and Doctor X pointed out. There could also be the "glove shyness" factor that Rene Denfeld expressed in her piece. The glove shyness takes repeated experience to overcome. Some mental conditioning takes place by the reflex drills that I like to use. Depending on the skill level, we move increasingly towards making real contact. Block/parry/move or be hit. Inevitably some contact is made and the person learns to accept it and go on. If not, martial practice is not for the person.
I never really got into depth about what they feel sparring regarding male vs female, or more advanced person against a novice. I guess I never really cared because I just know that they have to develop intensity and a certain level of fearlessness if they are to apply their skills in real life. I will have to ask them to share their thoughts here if they are willing.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-22-99).]
sparring
I'm a beginner who is only 5' tall and I am very glad that I've sparred. I'm still not a hundred percent comfortable nor confident enough doing it because I know that there's a great chance of being injured. Luckily, I work out with people whom I trust to not hurt me badly or intentionally. And I think that's very important, esp. with beginners like me. I still fear getting hit, but through time, I've realized and, thus, have continuously reminded myself that I won't die from it-the pain will go away, eventually. See, I think that at least for myself the following rings true: for the most part, it's the anticipation of being hit that makes me tense. It's in the mind. But, once you've been hit and survived it, it's fine-very much like the example in Rene Denfield's essay. The reality of it is that you will get hit no matter what. You can easily get hurt and experience pain doing something else, like tripping over something. You just have to train yourself to believe that it really is okay to be hit while sparring because you'll live. Plus, while sparring, you can get hit but you will also doubtlessly get at least one or two hits in there too. Feel good about that. Figure out what you did there to get the hits in and do that more often. Even if you don't really believe this, try to: just keep telling yourself that and you just might. Hey, you get hit enough, you'll build your tolerance for pain. You get hit enough in the same area, you'll know that you need to figure out how not to be hit there. It's a great learning experience.
I know that despite the discomfort of pain, without sparring, I wouldn't know how far I can push myself and how well (or not so well) I would be able to fend for myself when the time calls for it. You can do the drills to death but without the actual application of the skills, they do nothing but tone your body. Through the actual experience, you will be able to figure out when to appropriately use which techniques/moves. Through sparring with different individuals of varying sizes, you will be better able to defend yourself in real life situations.
As for sparring with male vs. female, etc., I don't think I've done it enough to truly have a preference. One thing I do know is that I rather spar with a more advanced person because someone needs to really know what to do. Like I said, sparring is a learning experience, not an ultimate fighting match, at least it shouldn't be. A more experienced individual will be able to give you pointers on how to better apply your skills. At the same time, there is a greater risk of injury by this individual, which in turn will force you to focus more and perhaps do better.
To answer the inquiry as to why some women like to spar with men, perhaps it's in the culture and/or through stereotypes. See, stereotypically and culturally, we are taught to believe that males are somehow better than females at any age level. So when a woman fights a man and gets beat up, it's okay because her partner was a better fighter to begin with. Alternatively, if she gets many hits in or if she beats him up, it's a far greater accomplishment. E.g., if a girl beats up a boy, most other children will tease and laugh at him and say things like "you got beat up by a girl" and/or "how could you let a girl do that to you?" Conversely, the response for the girl would be "wow, you beat up a boy." The treatment isn't the same when the boy is the attacker, because we are taught that there isn't much, if any, glory in beating a "weaker" opponent. This example applies to adult males as well.
Furthermore, it could be that some women are just more willing to hurt men than they are women. It could very much be a subconscious thing. Each person has his/her own reasons to do things. Perhaps, it could also be repressed aggression…somewhere down the line, one or more men have done something inappropriate (wrong) to the woman or other women. This information is then processed and generalized to the male population. She may want to hit or do something to these people who've hurt her or her friends but can't really, because you really can't just go up to a person and slap or punch him, so when a woman spars with a man, it's a great opportunity to vent. (I know that this last point is not exactly the best explanation and without too much validity, esp. because I know that many may deny it even if it is true, but it's just a thought.)
[This message has been edited by siu (edited 07-23-99).]
I know that despite the discomfort of pain, without sparring, I wouldn't know how far I can push myself and how well (or not so well) I would be able to fend for myself when the time calls for it. You can do the drills to death but without the actual application of the skills, they do nothing but tone your body. Through the actual experience, you will be able to figure out when to appropriately use which techniques/moves. Through sparring with different individuals of varying sizes, you will be better able to defend yourself in real life situations.
As for sparring with male vs. female, etc., I don't think I've done it enough to truly have a preference. One thing I do know is that I rather spar with a more advanced person because someone needs to really know what to do. Like I said, sparring is a learning experience, not an ultimate fighting match, at least it shouldn't be. A more experienced individual will be able to give you pointers on how to better apply your skills. At the same time, there is a greater risk of injury by this individual, which in turn will force you to focus more and perhaps do better.
To answer the inquiry as to why some women like to spar with men, perhaps it's in the culture and/or through stereotypes. See, stereotypically and culturally, we are taught to believe that males are somehow better than females at any age level. So when a woman fights a man and gets beat up, it's okay because her partner was a better fighter to begin with. Alternatively, if she gets many hits in or if she beats him up, it's a far greater accomplishment. E.g., if a girl beats up a boy, most other children will tease and laugh at him and say things like "you got beat up by a girl" and/or "how could you let a girl do that to you?" Conversely, the response for the girl would be "wow, you beat up a boy." The treatment isn't the same when the boy is the attacker, because we are taught that there isn't much, if any, glory in beating a "weaker" opponent. This example applies to adult males as well.
Furthermore, it could be that some women are just more willing to hurt men than they are women. It could very much be a subconscious thing. Each person has his/her own reasons to do things. Perhaps, it could also be repressed aggression…somewhere down the line, one or more men have done something inappropriate (wrong) to the woman or other women. This information is then processed and generalized to the male population. She may want to hit or do something to these people who've hurt her or her friends but can't really, because you really can't just go up to a person and slap or punch him, so when a woman spars with a man, it's a great opportunity to vent. (I know that this last point is not exactly the best explanation and without too much validity, esp. because I know that many may deny it even if it is true, but it's just a thought.)
[This message has been edited by siu (edited 07-23-99).]
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natalie lane
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: dartmouth, ns canada
sparring
Siu-San
WOW!
Welcome to this forum!
A few of the ideas you wrote about were swirling around in my head, but you wrote them so much better than I could have.
I am as tall as the average sized man, 5'10", although I am much lighter than most men that size. I have been following this thread, and trying to honestly examine the reason why some women prefer to spar with men.
The first one that jumps to mind is that is what I am used to. Everyone is more comfortable with what they know, compared to new experiences, and with few exceptions, my training partners have been men. Two of my long time training partners were big men who weighed over 200lbs. Right now, the female population is growing by leaps and bounds in most dojos, but every one I have ever been in still had an overwhelming male population.
So I think that for many women, sparring with men was more of a necessity than a choice. And when there is a choice to be made, most people choose what they know.
One other thing might be the competitive factor. When I do a sport(not just karate) with a woman friend, it feels different than when I am with a man. For some reason, I am usually much more supportive and less competitive with women than men. It's a sisterhood. I don't want to win, I want to have fun, and help her improve as I improve. A girlfriend noticed this years ago, and pointed it out to me after she watched me play ground hockey with my male friends, and then she picked up a stick, and everything changed. If they got hurt(but it was usually me), tough, but I didn't want anything to happen to her.
To generalize, I think men compete much more than women when it comes to sports and such. This is changing, and I am very happy to see womens sports getting more attention than they used to. BUT-It irritates me when the press cover women athletes in manner much different than male athletes. Who cares how short her figure skating skirt is? And if I didn't notice how skimpy her shorts are under her tennis skirt are, I don't care, and I certainly don't want the media spoon feeding it to me. Unfortunately, in some sports, the women's division is treated totally different, and I look forward to the days when that changes. Women's boxing, for example, usually makes me very frustrated. The annoucers discuss the women's appearances, and choice of colours like it was a beauty contest. It's no wonder most of the women's matches I have seen on closed circuit undercards have been a joke. What serious women boxer would want to compete in an arena like that? Uh oh, I am venting, and ranting, perhaps I need an editor, similar to JD's. Enough.
Recently I was training for a tournament, and I was doing a lot of sparring. Daily. Not once did I have a female to spar against. Every day, I sparred different men. It was frustrating because I knew that when it came time to step on the mat, it would be women across from me. And I suspect that it did make a difference in my intensity in the first match, although by the time I started the second match, I was over it.
Thank you for making that insightful post.
Natalie
WOW!
Welcome to this forum!
A few of the ideas you wrote about were swirling around in my head, but you wrote them so much better than I could have.
I am as tall as the average sized man, 5'10", although I am much lighter than most men that size. I have been following this thread, and trying to honestly examine the reason why some women prefer to spar with men.
The first one that jumps to mind is that is what I am used to. Everyone is more comfortable with what they know, compared to new experiences, and with few exceptions, my training partners have been men. Two of my long time training partners were big men who weighed over 200lbs. Right now, the female population is growing by leaps and bounds in most dojos, but every one I have ever been in still had an overwhelming male population.
So I think that for many women, sparring with men was more of a necessity than a choice. And when there is a choice to be made, most people choose what they know.
One other thing might be the competitive factor. When I do a sport(not just karate) with a woman friend, it feels different than when I am with a man. For some reason, I am usually much more supportive and less competitive with women than men. It's a sisterhood. I don't want to win, I want to have fun, and help her improve as I improve. A girlfriend noticed this years ago, and pointed it out to me after she watched me play ground hockey with my male friends, and then she picked up a stick, and everything changed. If they got hurt(but it was usually me), tough, but I didn't want anything to happen to her.
To generalize, I think men compete much more than women when it comes to sports and such. This is changing, and I am very happy to see womens sports getting more attention than they used to. BUT-It irritates me when the press cover women athletes in manner much different than male athletes. Who cares how short her figure skating skirt is? And if I didn't notice how skimpy her shorts are under her tennis skirt are, I don't care, and I certainly don't want the media spoon feeding it to me. Unfortunately, in some sports, the women's division is treated totally different, and I look forward to the days when that changes. Women's boxing, for example, usually makes me very frustrated. The annoucers discuss the women's appearances, and choice of colours like it was a beauty contest. It's no wonder most of the women's matches I have seen on closed circuit undercards have been a joke. What serious women boxer would want to compete in an arena like that? Uh oh, I am venting, and ranting, perhaps I need an editor, similar to JD's. Enough.
Recently I was training for a tournament, and I was doing a lot of sparring. Daily. Not once did I have a female to spar against. Every day, I sparred different men. It was frustrating because I knew that when it came time to step on the mat, it would be women across from me. And I suspect that it did make a difference in my intensity in the first match, although by the time I started the second match, I was over it.
Thank you for making that insightful post.
Natalie
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
sparring
Hello All:
I think my two cents are limited to the word "embarrassment".
I can remember starting to spar in the mid 70's (when the Brady Bunch was in first run to get a timeline) and trying to mimic on my first outing just stuff I'd seen on TV.
All the seniors (not one over Shodan) thought this was most comical and laughed at my newbie "shucking and jiving" and I was thus taught to be more decorous in my "presentation".
Well, it now comes down to being as afraid of being embarassed (?) as much as of being physically hurt.
Instructors, obviously, should be a bit sensitive in this area, initially, because the negative feedback sticks.
JOHN
------------------
I think my two cents are limited to the word "embarrassment".
I can remember starting to spar in the mid 70's (when the Brady Bunch was in first run to get a timeline) and trying to mimic on my first outing just stuff I'd seen on TV.
All the seniors (not one over Shodan) thought this was most comical and laughed at my newbie "shucking and jiving" and I was thus taught to be more decorous in my "presentation".
Well, it now comes down to being as afraid of being embarassed (?) as much as of being physically hurt.
Instructors, obviously, should be a bit sensitive in this area, initially, because the negative feedback sticks.
JOHN
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sparring
Hi all,
Nice thread and great topic! Sorry I've been absent - been a bit wrapped up with a new job and haven't had much time to be online...
Sparring and women - touches on a myriad of subjects, and it's great to see a few of them come up here.
Fear:
Our dojo has never had a heavy emphasis on sparring, or perhaps I should say competitive sparring, focusing more on the "give and take" where the sparring partners are encouraged to develop a "flow" of technique (balancing strikes and blocks with counter strikes) rather than a "clash." Even so - the first times out on the floor can be terrifying - at least in my shoes (barefeet actually) as the only female in the dojo at the time. I was very fortunate in that my seniors incorporated a blend of pushing me past my perceived limitations while using enough control not to devastate me. This is not to say that they didn't land their strikes - they did - and I learned from it. But reflecting back, I know now that they somehow worked it in a way that boosted my confidence, while still showing me that I have so much more to learn. Unfortunately this isn't always the case, and some senior ranks seem to take a perverse pleasure in "wiping the floor" with junior ranks. From a female perspective, this may be all that it takes to discourage her from continuing martial arts study. In one of the books I've read about women in the martial arts, sparring is quoted as the number one reason why women quit their karate study.
As a teacher with female students - I see this fear and work to continue that blend of confidence building and teaching in sparring exercises - and it's always gratifying to see women break through that barrier of initial fear and begin to enjoy sparring. When a sparring exercise is completed, it's always nicer to see the participants come out of it feeling like they learned something - and from a female perspective sometimes the feeling of "I survived it!" is encouragment enough to try it again.
Pain:
This is a tough one. Not too many people really enjoy getting hit. And there is a lot to be said for conditioning. This is why brand new students shouldn't spar initially - they have not had the time to build up their conditioning for when they do get hit! Yet there is no way to condition some parts, like the nose! When those strikes land, it hurts, and it takes fortitude to take them and keep going. My sensei has always taught his students that if you get hit, under no circumstances should you call time, or say you cannot go on, unless you KNOW that it is so serious you risk further injury. In which case a competent referee should have already stopped the match. If they have not then you must do what you must do. Swallow it and continue if at all possible. Not so easy for many. But an important lesson. From the female perspective, some hits hurt us worse than would a male, and it makes it harder to "swallow it" and continue. Personally, I don't like to spar with equipment, believing that proper conditioning eliminates some of the need - BUT there are some areas, again, that cannot be protected. When I am sparring with members of my own dojo, I don't use protective gear, but when sparring with someone new to me, I always use a chest protector, like Natalie does. Maybe some of the participants with a medical background can confirm this, but I have read somewhere (sorry - don't have a reference handy) that injuries or strikes to the chest may have some correlation to the development of breast cancer. Whether it is true or not - it is still impossible to condition that area, so why not protect yourself?
Women hitting men and vice versa:
Currently in our dojo we have a nice mix of female and male students - and I have yet to observe some of the things mentioned above, though I do not discount them. One thing I have noticed is a difficulty getting women to hit at all, and along the same vein, getting somemen to throw a real strike at a woman. Pulling a punch or aiming to the side of the opponent is something some students really have to work to overcome. In this case, protective gear can help by giving the person a sense that their strike won't hurt the person if it lands. After getting to the point where real strikes are thrown, then we can progress to sparring without equipment. As for some women getting over agressive when sparring, and using the opportunity to take out agression at men in general, even on a subconcious level - this may have some real credence to it! Another statistic from the "Women in the Martial Arts" books I've read states that some form of abuse or attack is one of the biggest reasons women start studying martial arts in the first place. I feel that this may be changing as women in sports becomes more and more accepted -- but this reason certainly exists in some cases. Another reason to have women sparring with responsible seniors initially. On the flip side, some men hit women too hard, a subject that has been discussed on this forum before, again the need for responsiblity in the senior ranks. This is one drawback that I have experienced personally, and I had to work through the fear AND the pain of each of those experiences. These times did teach me to block more effectively, and to be on guard for this type of aggression in the future. From my personal perspective, I felt it was closer to reality that way, as a real life agressor is certainly not going to pull punches, but there is a lot to be said for sparring in the dojo as a learning not a destroying experience.
OK, this is getting too long - but there's my two yen - FWIW.
Thanks to everyone for your participation! I am enjoying the thread!
Peace,
Lori
Nice thread and great topic! Sorry I've been absent - been a bit wrapped up with a new job and haven't had much time to be online...
Sparring and women - touches on a myriad of subjects, and it's great to see a few of them come up here.
Fear:
Our dojo has never had a heavy emphasis on sparring, or perhaps I should say competitive sparring, focusing more on the "give and take" where the sparring partners are encouraged to develop a "flow" of technique (balancing strikes and blocks with counter strikes) rather than a "clash." Even so - the first times out on the floor can be terrifying - at least in my shoes (barefeet actually) as the only female in the dojo at the time. I was very fortunate in that my seniors incorporated a blend of pushing me past my perceived limitations while using enough control not to devastate me. This is not to say that they didn't land their strikes - they did - and I learned from it. But reflecting back, I know now that they somehow worked it in a way that boosted my confidence, while still showing me that I have so much more to learn. Unfortunately this isn't always the case, and some senior ranks seem to take a perverse pleasure in "wiping the floor" with junior ranks. From a female perspective, this may be all that it takes to discourage her from continuing martial arts study. In one of the books I've read about women in the martial arts, sparring is quoted as the number one reason why women quit their karate study.
As a teacher with female students - I see this fear and work to continue that blend of confidence building and teaching in sparring exercises - and it's always gratifying to see women break through that barrier of initial fear and begin to enjoy sparring. When a sparring exercise is completed, it's always nicer to see the participants come out of it feeling like they learned something - and from a female perspective sometimes the feeling of "I survived it!" is encouragment enough to try it again.
Pain:
This is a tough one. Not too many people really enjoy getting hit. And there is a lot to be said for conditioning. This is why brand new students shouldn't spar initially - they have not had the time to build up their conditioning for when they do get hit! Yet there is no way to condition some parts, like the nose! When those strikes land, it hurts, and it takes fortitude to take them and keep going. My sensei has always taught his students that if you get hit, under no circumstances should you call time, or say you cannot go on, unless you KNOW that it is so serious you risk further injury. In which case a competent referee should have already stopped the match. If they have not then you must do what you must do. Swallow it and continue if at all possible. Not so easy for many. But an important lesson. From the female perspective, some hits hurt us worse than would a male, and it makes it harder to "swallow it" and continue. Personally, I don't like to spar with equipment, believing that proper conditioning eliminates some of the need - BUT there are some areas, again, that cannot be protected. When I am sparring with members of my own dojo, I don't use protective gear, but when sparring with someone new to me, I always use a chest protector, like Natalie does. Maybe some of the participants with a medical background can confirm this, but I have read somewhere (sorry - don't have a reference handy) that injuries or strikes to the chest may have some correlation to the development of breast cancer. Whether it is true or not - it is still impossible to condition that area, so why not protect yourself?
Women hitting men and vice versa:
Currently in our dojo we have a nice mix of female and male students - and I have yet to observe some of the things mentioned above, though I do not discount them. One thing I have noticed is a difficulty getting women to hit at all, and along the same vein, getting somemen to throw a real strike at a woman. Pulling a punch or aiming to the side of the opponent is something some students really have to work to overcome. In this case, protective gear can help by giving the person a sense that their strike won't hurt the person if it lands. After getting to the point where real strikes are thrown, then we can progress to sparring without equipment. As for some women getting over agressive when sparring, and using the opportunity to take out agression at men in general, even on a subconcious level - this may have some real credence to it! Another statistic from the "Women in the Martial Arts" books I've read states that some form of abuse or attack is one of the biggest reasons women start studying martial arts in the first place. I feel that this may be changing as women in sports becomes more and more accepted -- but this reason certainly exists in some cases. Another reason to have women sparring with responsible seniors initially. On the flip side, some men hit women too hard, a subject that has been discussed on this forum before, again the need for responsiblity in the senior ranks. This is one drawback that I have experienced personally, and I had to work through the fear AND the pain of each of those experiences. These times did teach me to block more effectively, and to be on guard for this type of aggression in the future. From my personal perspective, I felt it was closer to reality that way, as a real life agressor is certainly not going to pull punches, but there is a lot to be said for sparring in the dojo as a learning not a destroying experience.
OK, this is getting too long - but there's my two yen - FWIW.
Thanks to everyone for your participation! I am enjoying the thread!
Peace,
Lori
