Reasons Women would want to Train in Martial Arts

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:00 am

Hello!

I realize that this topic has probably been discussed ad nauseum on this Forum in the past; if so, please just give me a link to the relevant archive and I'll go on my merry way. If not, here's the background, followed by my questions.

I run a small Uechi-ryu dojo in out of my basement in the Atlanta area. Today my wife called me at work to tell me that one of our neighbors, Melissa, had told her that she and 7 other women were very interested in starting martial arts. My wife had told her that I taught martial arts, so Melissa wanted to know if I would be interested in teaching her group.

Somewhat skeptical, but intrigued at the prospect of more than doubling my dojo headcount in one fell swoop (can you tell I'm in corporate finance?

), I decided to give Melissa a call. I asked her about her group's goals. She said she and her friends really wanted to lose weight and get in shape; also it would be neat if they could learn a little about self-defense at the same time. She told me they were mostly 30ish, 25 lbs. or so overweight, some from recent pregnancies and the others, well, "just because they'd gained the weight slowly over the past 10 or so years". I asked if she knew anything about Martial Arts; she said "not really".

My immediate gut reaction was that they were probably not looking for a Traditional Style like Uechi-ryu.

I waded in by explaining that there are basically 4 broad categories of "martial arts": Traditional Martial Arts, Self-Defense courses, Martial Sports, and "fusion" stuff such as TaeBo or "Karate-Aerobics". Each category was very good in its own way, but each have different goals and methods.

I told Melissa that Traditional Martial Arts is somewhat like a dance class: the focus is on improving technique, concentration, focus, and mental discipline. The fact that you might get into shape (as defined by Hollywood / MTV / muscle magazines) is a side effect rather than a primary goal.

Self-defense classes are like learning recipes in a cookbook. For attack 33Q, use defense 18A or 19B. Such classes also emphasize how not to become a victim or to project a "victim attitude". Getting in shape is not part of the program.

Martial Sports is like basketball. You get two points if you toss the ball in the correct orange hoop; no points if you miss the orange hoop. If you move without bouncing the ball, you get penalized and must give the ball to the other team. In other words, Martial Sports is primarily about winning points and getting trophies within a set of narrowly defined parameters, and somewhat less about defending oneself. This is not to say that "Martial Sportists" cannot defend themselves; experienced ones can do so, and quite well (for example, most of us would not want to have to defend ourselves againsts a Sugar Ray Leonard). It's just that self-defense is not the overriding focus of any sport; rather it's winning within the set of rules established for that sport.

Finally, there's the fusion between aerobics and martial arts. Here the main idea is to become as "ripped" as Billy Blanks (and perhaps to pick up a date while doing so); learning to deliver an effective kick, punch or block is not high on the TaeBo objective list.

NOTE: My apologies in advance: I realize these are almost criminally gross generalizations. But I was trying to "keep it simple" plus keep the phone call under 10 minutes ...

Anyway, to conclude my call, I told Melissa that I thought that given their goals, she and her group might be most interested in the "fusion" category. She agreed, but before she hung up, I suggested she drop by my class in any case to see if it would interest her or her friends. Melissa said she thought that it was an excellent plan, and would likely attend next Monday's class. She thanked me for my time, and hung up.

The conversation continued to gnaw at me for an hour after I hung up ... I felt a vague sense of dissatisfaction. Had I been too quick in leading Melissa to the conclusion that Uechi, as a traditional martial art, was probably not the right vehicle to achieve her group's goals? Did I sell Uechi's virtues short? Should I have spent more time trying to find out if Traditional Martial Arts training would serve to fulfill any of her group's secondary objectives?

I decided to call Dana Sheets and Heather Lipin, two excellent, intelligent and insightful Uechi-ka from Bob Kaiser's Washington Karate Academy who happen to be women. I explained the situation to them then posed a series of questions, which can be summarized as follows:

1) Is it true that women tend to cite "losing weight" and "getting in shape" more often than men as reasons to start Martial Arts training?

2) If so, what aspects of Traditional Martial Arts training would attract women to choose it rather than training in the other 3 categories?

3) What aspects of Traditional Martial Arts training tend to be initial "turn-offs" for women? Or restated, which misgivings do women in particular tend to have about Traditional Martial Arts training that should I try to address up front?

NOTE: Please don't infer from the last question that I have not coached / trained with many women in Martial Arts. In its heyday, Bill Glasheen's dojo at the University of Virginia (where I started) was 30% female; my Regensburg dojo (now run by my students) is 60% women. It's just that until now, I've never considered that there may be broad differences in what INITIALLY motivates women to start training (or causes them to stop training) in Traditional Martial Arts compared to men. With a few exceptions my approach has been pretty simplistic: if a student choose to train, great! If they choose to quit, too bad. No big effort to differentiate (training-wise) between men and women.

Both Dana and Heather had very thoughtful answers; answers I won't repeat here as they would do a much better job of posting their answers themselves (hint, hint).

I appreciate any insights others may have on this topic ... particularly women who have not been training very long.

Thanks,

Bruce Hirabayashi
Rokudan
Atlanta Uechi-ryu

[This message has been edited by Bruce Hirabayashi (edited December 13, 2001).]

Post by **gmattson** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:09 pm

Hi Bruce:

Interesting analysis, but I believe you missed the mark on the reason women (or men) select various workout/self defense programs.

People in general, don't really know much about the zillion type of programs available. Granted, some may wish to join a club for social reasons, but most, I suspect go there primarily for the purpose of getting into shape. People select self-defense programs because they believe they may as well learn something while working out.

Even if a person joins a program for self-defense purposes alone, s/he would be brain dead if they thought they could do this without a heavy dose of conditioning.

So lets look at some of the issues that cause people to drop out of any program:

1. Boring program: Instructor spends more time lecturing than working out.

2. Inappropriate/unsafe conditioning: 100 knuckle pushups on concrete floor type of drills. Excessive body conditioning, sparring, mindless exercises.

3. Boring and repetitive basics, without anything challenging and instructive to balance the basics.

4. Boring instructor who relies on his "grandmastership" status to inspire students instead of creative and exciting classes.

5. Poor facilities: Dirty floors or carpets, dark/dingy facility.

The teacher dictates the focus of the class. S/he will determine whether students stay or flee, based on the content and presentation of the program, not on some predetermined definition of the art.

But of course, we must not judge our programs by those students who do not stay with any program. They will bounce from dojo to dojo, gym to gym looking for the supreme guru who will transform their humpty-dumpty body into magazine-model proportions.

So Bruce. . . Clean up that basement, fit the floor with those interlocking mats and brighten up the room. Then sit down and create the kind of Uechi program that will inspire your new students, give them a healthy workout, while achieving your goals of teaching them useful self defense and Uechi-ryu.

You will soon outgrow your space as people flock to your dojo!

Have fun. . .

------------------
GEM

beckyhaworth · Post by **beckyhaworth** » Wed Dec 12, 2001 7:57 pm

Okay...my female point of view.

When I first started Martial Arts, it was a desire to hopefully look a little better and be more confident in myself.

Luckily enough, I had a wonderful instructor who gave me information and treated me like an equal. Didn't hurt that he worked the sh*t out of us in class to and I liked that.

He always gave me a challege and I responded to that. Now I try to do the same thing for other women that I teach. I teach them common sense things and don't treat them like they can't do anything that the men can do.

I would suggest that you call Melissa back on Tuesday, especially if she doesn't come and watch class on Monday. Talk to her some more and maybe see if they are interested in a "private" class for a week or so to see if they like it and so they don't feel "stupid" when they come to class.

I see alot of women that would like to join, but they don't want to look like they don't know what they are doing to someone just watching the class.

Becky

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:04 am

Hi George:

Thanks for your input! Your advice about creating a successful program is, in my opinion, right on target. It serves as a good reminder that we all need to look carefully at how we’re teaching to ensure we aren’t inexorably falling into teaching “ruts”.

However, George, if you review your points, you’ll note that they are apropos whether you want to run a good martial arts program, dance studio or skiing school.

In this thread I wanted to focus on exploring reasons a woman would select a “traditional” martial arts class (as defined above) rather than the going for the pounding disco beat of a TaeBo class.

Secondly, I wanted to know the parts of a traditional martial arts class that would, when first encountered as beginners, turn off a prospective female student. Examples might (but may not necessarily) be:

- Bruises received during conditioning
- Being overpowered by male students
- Being “handled” or touched by a instructor during stance corrections
- etc.

Becky’s post headed down this path by pointing out that it was important to her than she be treated with respect by the instructor and her fellow karate-ka.

As for:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gmattson:

So Bruce. . . Clean up that basement, fit the floor with those interlocking mats and brighten up the room. Then sit down and create the kind of Uechi program that will inspire your new students, give them a healthy workout, while achieving your goals of teaching them useful self defense and Uechi-ryu.

You will soon outgrow your space as people flock to your dojo!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Call me lazy or unambitious, but I’m really not that interested in outgrowing my basement dojo. Like many others, I do not run a commercial dojo, nor will I do so in the near future. At this point in my life, I would like to work out with and teach 8-10 students without having to deal with hassling them about money, paying rent, buying expensive liability policies, etc. If I want a bigger school, I will probably buy a house with a larger basement. Perhaps I will change my tune in 25 years when I retire, or earlier if I hit the Lottery.

In other words, while I have great admiration for the large and successful schools run by Buzzy Durkin, Gary Khoury, etc., I’m not looking to compete with them.

For me, Uechi-ryu Karate-do is a way of life and a serious hobby, rather than a profession. My students learn for free, and (I believe) they understand that because of it, the facilities may not necessarily look like Gold’s Gym.

Thanks for the posts!

Bruce

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:07 am

Hey Bruce,

It was good chatting with you yesterday. And I am now saying publicly that I will find a way to come down & train with you.

Now - why traditional training...
I trained judo for 3 years. Straight-up martial sport. My teacher was the son of the coach of the Korean National Olympic Judo Team. He was very, very good at the art of judo-sport. I trained hard, had a great time and ... sort of felt like I was missing something.

When I moved to DC I decided to find a more complete mind body spirit experience. I think many, many women find this kind of fulfillment in yoga, tai chi, swimming (why I'll never know), aerobics class...but the other part of my ticket into the door of the dojo was the idea of self defense.

Now I know that empty handed vs weapons is a tough, tough battle. I grew up in Indiana (for want of a better stereotype) and know how to defend myself with a firearm. But as RAMiller often points out -- unless that firearm is already in your hand, every confrontation will begin empty-handed.

I watched several classes. The "Hoo-ya Master Chief" paramilitary drop & give me 20 pushups because you were late to class bull-malarkey did nothing for me. In fact it send me running for the door. Tai chi for health was...nice, but didn't include self-defense until you'd been in it for 10 years, same for aikido.

I did not want to train a japanese-ryu. I'd heard a lot about how they were watered down styles for children. So that left okinawan styles, kung-fu, and philipino styles & jujitsu. I visited some schools and then walked into Bob Kaiser's dojo.

Lots of things came together.
1. Okinawan style
2. A teacher that did not run class like boot camp.
3. A school that had other women in it
4. Location -- his school was 1 mile from my grad school.
5. nobody was wearing a knee brace
6. I could afford the tuition.

What made me stay?
Uechi is a very good fighting system. At it's heart, it is not about force on force. And that's enough to keep me for a long time. And, because of training judo I was able to see this early on in my uechi experience. Unfortunately unless a woman has trained in something else she is not going to be able to see this kind of thing. She is going to do the early kumites, the conditioning, the sparring and then get bruised, get hurt, and drop out.

Also, whether or not you believe it, lots of women won't train in martial arts if they have to cut their nails. Finger nails can be a source of great pride and feminimity for many, many women and they simply won't give them up.

Also, many women have told me that most classes go too quickly. The contact comes on too soon, etc, etc, etc. I had experience with getting bruises and body contact for judo so I think I was more prepared than most.

Anyway -- that's my story. Sorry it took so long.

Cheers,
Dana

[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited December 13, 2001).]

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bruce Hirabayashi:
Hi George:

However, George, if you review your points, you'll note that they are apropos whether you want to run a good martial arts program, dance studio or skiing school.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Bruce. And I believe my point was that most people don't really know the difference between a karate class and a Taebo class until they check them out. Therefore, if you are attempting to interest students in your program, you must be aware of what will get your program through the first round of a potential student's evaluation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In this thread I wanted to focus on exploring reasons a woman would select a traditional martial arts class (as defined above) rather than the going for the pounding disco beat of a TaeBo class.

The dance-kick-punch-to-music programs have been around for quite awhile and appear, to the beginner, as something they can do with a minimum of embarrassment. A person can sort of jump into a corner of the gym and follow along. . . I sense that this appeals to people who lack self confidence, more so than joining a highly structured and disciplined program like karate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Secondly, I wanted to know the parts of a traditional martial arts class that would, when first encountered as beginners, turn off a prospective female student. Examples might (but may not necessarily) be:

- Bruises received during conditioning
- Being overpowered by male students
- Being handled or touched by a instructor during stance corrections
- etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe Dana and Becky focused on this very well. They also pointed out that they were not the ordinary prospects, when they first entered a Dojo.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for:
Call me lazy or unambitious, but I’m really not that interested in outgrowing my basement dojo.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. . . but this wasn't the emphasis of your first post, where you appeared pleased to add 7-8 new students to your club.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Like many others, I do not run a commercial dojo, nor will I do so in the near future.

I wish people would not add this disclaimer to their definition of "personal dojo". Remember that every Uechi teacher who exposes the public to our art is responsible for how their students view what we do. Because the majority of Uechi schools fall into the category of "garage dojo", most of what the public learns about Uechi, is from the people who currently study or have tried a few lessons from these casual "non-commercial" dojo. Because we don't take money, or not much money, from our students, does not mean we can shortchange them in the way of training environment, attitude or curriculum.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At this point in my life, I would like to work out with and teach 8-10 students without having to deal with hassling them about money, paying rent, buying expensive liability policies, etc. If I want a bigger school, I will probably buy a house with a larger basement. Perhaps I will change my tune in 25 years when I retire, or earlier if I hit the Lottery.

In other words, while I have great admiration for the large and successful schools run by Buzzy Durkin, Gary Khoury, etc., I’m not looking to compete with them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not suggesting that we compete with them, only equal them in the way we treat students and train them. This suggestion does not require charging money or having a huge and beautiful facility. But if we take on the responsibility to pass on our Uechi to others, there should be a minimum requirement in the way of teaching ability and facilities offered.

I hope you understand my words are of a general nature and not pointed at anyone specifically. We should understand that each of us, regardless of our involvement in Uechi-ryu, is an ambassador. We can't hide behind our amateur status to excuse passing on to the public a false impression of our art.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

For me, Uechi-ryu Karate-do is a way of life and a serious hobby, rather than a profession. My students learn for free, and (I believe) they understand that because of it, the facilities may not necessarily look like Gold’s Gym.

I'm not suggesting a glitsy space. (again.. I'm speaking generally and not referring to Bruce's little dojo )

But, I feel that a minimum requirement for a workout area is one that is safe, well lit and clean. Anyone who thinks they can't be sued because they are an amateur is mistaken. Negligence is negligence. . . whether a student gets injured tripping on a torn carpet or while receiving the gentle "testing" of a Takimiyagi during Sanchin!

Students who participate in any amateur program, should be able to help out in the care or the dojo and perhaps contributing to the addition of mats for a concrete floor. Every teacher should be a capable instructor in addition to a credible practitioner. A black belt does not equate to "teacher"!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Thanks for the posts!

Bruce

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best,
George

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The dance-kick-punch-to-music programs have been around for quite awhile and appear, to the beginner, as something they can do with a minimum of embarrassment. A person can sort of jump into a corner of the gym and follow along. . . I sense that this appeals to people who lack self confidence, more so than joining a highly structured and disciplined program like karate.

George,
I'm sure you weren't trying to imply that most women lack self-confidence? I think many, many men would be as terrified to jump into (what they perceive to be) an advanced aerobics class as most women are to jump into (what they perceive to be) an advanced karate class.

#1 comment from people watching our white belt basics class when they visit our school -- "This is the basics class? - It looks so advanced!!!"

What is unknown is unfamiliar is what unfamiliar is difficult to join. People have seen tae bo classes at their local gyms for the past 10 years so they know what they look like, and there are very few horror stories attached to them.

MA, in particular "traditional training" has a deep reputation of if you can't take the licks get off the floor mentality that will keep many, many women from even considering the idea that they could consider joining a karate school.

Also may different things appeal to many different people for many different reasons. So I don't think most people stay away from karate from a lack of confidence in themselves -- my guess is that they lack confidence in the industry of Martial Arts as a whole.

Dana

[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited December 13, 2001).]

beckyhaworth · Post by **beckyhaworth** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:13 pm

Very good points dana!!

Most people whether male or female are leery about joining a class unless they have watch several sessions. If they get lucky enough to see a new student enter the class, I think it is less "tramatizing" to them.

They can see what it is like for a new student being shown the ropes and the basics. Most people don't realize how easy Martial arts can be with a good instructor.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think alot of people, women especially, view the MA as a very physically demanding art and they "just aren't ready for it."

They think of sparring instead of the self defense. They think of bruises instead of the progress they will make.

Becky

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 7:49 pm

Beckyhaworth-sama,

Wonderful points as well. The worry about feeling out of place, klutzy or just plain out of shape is enough to put off many potential students, regardless of their gender. The idea of them being lucky enough to see a new student start often helps. I speak from experience both as a teacher and a student on that one.

The MA are often physically demanding, but they don't have to start out that way - a good teacher will allow the student to work their way up into condition instead of running a boot camp and too bad if you fall by the wayside.

IMHO, that's just not good teaching for beginner students, at least in the US where we are not used to such things and tend to object to them. It also seems to show a lack of concern for the student as well. If a teacher forces a student away during the first lesson by trying to force them well beyond their abilities, the teacher is doing a disservice to the student, the School and the Style.

Glad you seem to be on the same page.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)

dejsis · Post by **dejsis** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 6:13 am

Hello all *waves* My sensei said I have to come in here and contribute to the discussion otherwise he will kick my b*tt. Go figure

As far as my personal experience, I was but a kid when I frist put a gi on so really I did not put much of a though into the "why martial art vs something else" question. I vaguely remember being influenced by a certain martial artist lady who kicked butt in a TV series (don't ask).

With that being said, what would influence me if I had to make a choice today?

1) Excercise.
Most definitely. Anything that gets me off of the couch and away from the tube is good. If it does so on a regular basis, even better.
2) Self defense
Excercise is important but why not learn something useful while you are at it? If you go to aerobics, jazzercise or taeboo, you will get a work out but that's all what you'll get.
3) Community
To make new friends and to hang out with them, and to belong to a greater community (anyone who's been to the summer camps knows what I am talking about).
4) The "feel good" factor
I know it's been said many times but martial arts does give you self confidence, self control and can help you find your "inner self". Martial arts should be more than a sport; it is a way of life. Now, many people (female or otherwise) don't want or can't handle that sort of a commitment.

As for the "why Uechi" question, it's a little bit more complicated. I believe, many women would find Uechi too rough, too "up close and personal", too realistic. Dana, made the point very well: unless you had prior martial arts training you most likely won't be able to appreciate Uechi.

Of course as with everything it really depends on the individual.

Susanne

beckyhaworth · Post by **beckyhaworth** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 4:03 pm

Hi Suzanne!! Welcome to the forum!!! We need to encourage all the women of our dojos to come here and exchange ideas....

I hope eventually that I will have some women in our classes, but we are still so young in our dojo and things are slow to start. Patience.....I have to practice patience!!!

Becky

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:29 am

So what are we saying here?

That the only women who will be able to stay with Uechi are those that have either trained since they were children or that have trained in other styles and know how to "tough it out?"

Goodness -- that's not very encouraging...

Dana

Post by **gmattson** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:30 pm

I hope we aren't saying that Dana. What new teachers (and most of the 'ol timers') stress for new students, are military type drills and macho attitudes about "no pain - no gain" training, that turns off normal people.

These teachers subconsciously eliminate all but the toughest individuals from their program. And as I've repeatedly pointed out on these forums, the survivors didn't need the training in the first place!

We must get rid of the attitude that Uechi is for the "elite" killer-tough people in order to attract and keep normal students who need to be guided through their training, from no-nothing newbie, to someone capable of confidently facing the world.

------------------
GEM

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:10 pm

Dana-sama,

Having just recently attempted to go back into training in Iai-do (and was forced out because of my bad knees), I can attest to the idea of a teacher being understanding of a newbie's limitations in a class.

The Sensei was very understanding about my knees and did everything he could to help me through the class, including allowing me to stand during the second half of the seiza start position katas.

I would have continued if I had not been on my back for two days after with both knees on ice. Seriously.

As I am pushing 50 and am a bit overweight, his kindliness and understanding of my situation really made me feel good about being there. Unfortunately, the Doc says the bod just won't do that sort of thing any more.

IMHO, if more teachers took that attitude with their new students, there would be a much higher retention rate in some schools.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, retired, sort of)

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:01 pm

Lee, that's true.
But I think the vast majority of instructors out there just don't care enough.

They see any adaptation of their curriculum as a "watering down" and that it will "never really be effective".

Maybe they've lost the purpose of training an art. It really only takes a couple of months to teach someone ways to kills people. Obviously we're doing thing long-term and lifetime for a reason. Most likely for a multitude of reasons.

Women who come to martial arts may be looking for focus, fitness, awareness, self-defense -- they are not coming to win every fight and every sparring match. They may not be coming to turn their bodies into killing machines.

And most likely, a woman's body is going to take up to a year to condition to the point that many men reach within 3 months.

But the way we've always done it works, right? We shouldn't change anything. We should seeK to exclude rather than include.
Women, with rare exceptions, just slow down training anyway. Right?

:devil:
Dana

[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited December 18, 2001).]