Because of a move, I've started a new dojo. My old style and my current style are very similar. For the most part, there are small differences and I've been able to adapt to them fairly easily. However, I do have a couple of sticking points on which I'm having trouble reconciling. I don't agree with certain techniques that my new instructor teaches because I can see greater advantage in doing them a slightly different way. If I do them slightly different, then I'm called on it and made to do it the way it is being taught.
So my question is what would you do about it? Would you think that it's a new style and you need to do what they say, even if you don't agree with it? Would you chat with the instructor and see if you can convince them why your move is better for you? Would you just do what they say during class but then revert to what you think is better afterwards?
I'm of two minds about this. One is that I'm in a new style and I need to adapt to the way they teach things. I'm there to learn and keep an open mind to the things they have to offer.
The other part of my mind is I've heard his reasoning behind why we do something a certain way and I still prefer to do it another way because my reasonings are better for me. That I need to do what works best for me because I'm the one who's putting in all the hard work.
Comments?
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Moderator: Available
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Whose Karate is it anyway?
My experience is that when learning new and different techniques you should try it the way it is being shown and train it for a while. If, after training the technique on your own and with partners it still doesn't work for you, then that it the time to think of discarding the technique for your personal toolbox.
However, if it is a traditional technique in the style I think it is important to preserve the roots of traditional styles. This becomes important when you transmit the style to the next generation of students.
So I guess my question to you would be are you training a traditional style or are you training a modern, mixed martial arts type style?
Dana
However, if it is a traditional technique in the style I think it is important to preserve the roots of traditional styles. This becomes important when you transmit the style to the next generation of students.
So I guess my question to you would be are you training a traditional style or are you training a modern, mixed martial arts type style?
Dana
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Stryke
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Ive had the exzact same problem just training between different instructors in a style , I think its best to train the way the instructor is teaching , sure if there openminded discuss your preferences .
Try learn why they do things the way they do , if it then is still not they way you like practice your way when solo training or when not actually under someones tutalige .
Try learn why they do things the way they do , if it then is still not they way you like practice your way when solo training or when not actually under someones tutalige .
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Can relate to what Colleen stated. I suggest do as taught and if "your way" is better it will stand the test of time. Then after your part of the woodwork (excepted) in the new dojo slip in the stuff you like. Put yourself in the shoes of the instructor...how would you see the new student.
[This message has been edited by CANDANeh (edited August 17, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by CANDANeh (edited August 17, 2002).]
Whose Karate is it anyway?
All techniques are stylized fighting - not real fighting. As such they are all "symbolic" of the the way they would be done in a given fighting situation.
To fuss one symbol over another is to look at the pointing finger instead of the beauty of the moon.
And, in the case where the style is the goal, learn it as taught or you won't have it, right?
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The Fighting Old Man
To fuss one symbol over another is to look at the pointing finger instead of the beauty of the moon.
And, in the case where the style is the goal, learn it as taught or you won't have it, right?
------------------
The Fighting Old Man
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Colleen
This reminds me of my days of practicing and learning Goju Ryu while practicing and teaching Uechi Ryu.
Both styles have a sanchin kata. However the original open-handed sanchin that was the antecedent to Goju Ryu (learned by Higashionna while in China) was changed to closed-fisted and dynamic tension by Miyagi Chojun. There are other, more subtle (and consequently more annoying) differences, like the way to do the double-handed thrusts at the end of sanchin, or the way to do a move that is a salient technique in Uechi seiryu kata.
For a long time, the "easy" way to do things was to do them as I did in Uechi Ryu. However my instructor very patiently reminded me of all my "Uechi-isms," and slowly taught me the subtle differences between what I was used to and what was done in Goju Ryu.
Did the differences matter? Actually over time I learned to appreciate each and every one of them (with only a few exceptions). But it takes a LONG time to first identify, then assimilate, and finally appreciate the differences.
As was mentioned above, one will find differences even within a single style. To watch Dana do a "Nakamatsu" flavor to a simple sanchin thrust is to realize she (and her peers) have chosen to do things a particular way, and the choice is most definitely a unique one. The same can be said to Van's love of Shotokan breathing methods. There really is no "in-between" method. Do it this way, or do it that way.
So...what to do?
1) In a perfect world, you can be a chameleon and do things multiple ways. There are some among us (Bob Campbell in Uechi, my friend Bill Stockey in my old Japanese karate style) who can practice martial arts with the nuances of a particular individual the way some people can mimic accents. If you can learn to do this, then you will have mastered fundamentals of movement. And yes, FUNDAMENTALS DO MATTER in a real fight. Just as you need to have mastered the fundamentals of a musical instrument to play freeform jazz, so you need to have mastered the basics to be a great fighter. (Note, I said GREAT fighter).
2) Ask, study, then ask more, then study more. Find out why this teacher likes doing things this way, and that teacher likes doing things another way. Often they BOTH are right, but each takes a unique approach. Sometimes there are two completely different concepts or underlying principles involved with a subtle change in the way a particular technique is done. GREAT!!!
Someone above asked if you were a black belt. I think the reason that question was asked is because you should probably be AT LEAST a shodan before you do a lot of switching around. Sometimes this can't be avoided but... Learn something well first before doing a lot of looking around. Otherwise the differences will drive you crazy - particularly if you haven't mastered even the most basic movements.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
This reminds me of my days of practicing and learning Goju Ryu while practicing and teaching Uechi Ryu.
Both styles have a sanchin kata. However the original open-handed sanchin that was the antecedent to Goju Ryu (learned by Higashionna while in China) was changed to closed-fisted and dynamic tension by Miyagi Chojun. There are other, more subtle (and consequently more annoying) differences, like the way to do the double-handed thrusts at the end of sanchin, or the way to do a move that is a salient technique in Uechi seiryu kata.
For a long time, the "easy" way to do things was to do them as I did in Uechi Ryu. However my instructor very patiently reminded me of all my "Uechi-isms," and slowly taught me the subtle differences between what I was used to and what was done in Goju Ryu.
Did the differences matter? Actually over time I learned to appreciate each and every one of them (with only a few exceptions). But it takes a LONG time to first identify, then assimilate, and finally appreciate the differences.
As was mentioned above, one will find differences even within a single style. To watch Dana do a "Nakamatsu" flavor to a simple sanchin thrust is to realize she (and her peers) have chosen to do things a particular way, and the choice is most definitely a unique one. The same can be said to Van's love of Shotokan breathing methods. There really is no "in-between" method. Do it this way, or do it that way.
So...what to do?
1) In a perfect world, you can be a chameleon and do things multiple ways. There are some among us (Bob Campbell in Uechi, my friend Bill Stockey in my old Japanese karate style) who can practice martial arts with the nuances of a particular individual the way some people can mimic accents. If you can learn to do this, then you will have mastered fundamentals of movement. And yes, FUNDAMENTALS DO MATTER in a real fight. Just as you need to have mastered the fundamentals of a musical instrument to play freeform jazz, so you need to have mastered the basics to be a great fighter. (Note, I said GREAT fighter).
2) Ask, study, then ask more, then study more. Find out why this teacher likes doing things this way, and that teacher likes doing things another way. Often they BOTH are right, but each takes a unique approach. Sometimes there are two completely different concepts or underlying principles involved with a subtle change in the way a particular technique is done. GREAT!!!
Someone above asked if you were a black belt. I think the reason that question was asked is because you should probably be AT LEAST a shodan before you do a lot of switching around. Sometimes this can't be avoided but... Learn something well first before doing a lot of looking around. Otherwise the differences will drive you crazy - particularly if you haven't mastered even the most basic movements.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Whose Karate is it anyway?
By the way... Being able to mimic the way 3 or 4 different people do "the same movement" can have the following benefits:
1) You may begin to collect multiple applications to a single movement.
2) Over time, you may begin to identify "a core move" within the multiple variations that ties everything together. When you do that, suddenly you will be able to do more with less, and you will have truly mastered the movement.
3) You may indeed find a time where you will identify a certain way of doing something as "bad." But never rush to judgement there. It takes time to have the knowledge base to make such assessments.
4) With maturity, you will eventually evolve to "Colleen's" way of doing things.
Remember, it's a martial ART!
- Bill
1) You may begin to collect multiple applications to a single movement.
2) Over time, you may begin to identify "a core move" within the multiple variations that ties everything together. When you do that, suddenly you will be able to do more with less, and you will have truly mastered the movement.
3) You may indeed find a time where you will identify a certain way of doing something as "bad." But never rush to judgement there. It takes time to have the knowledge base to make such assessments.
4) With maturity, you will eventually evolve to "Colleen's" way of doing things.
Remember, it's a martial ART!
- Bill
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Mary Chant
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Boise, ID, USA
Whose Karate is it anyway?
I studied Uechi-Ryu for about three and a half years in the early 80s, kind of went into self-destruct mode,left, got myself together, blah, blah, blah, moved to Boise years later, yada, yada, yada, but there is no Uechi-Ryu here. I have tried different styles, and am now studying an adapted Shorin-Ryu, which is quite different from Uechi in many ways. In fact, my sensei criticizes certain Uechi type moves as being vulnerable and problematic when they sneak through my in my kata or techniques.
It is difficult not to say anything, but I made the decision to "withhold judgement", learn their way to the best of my ability, and then when I have much more expereince and understanding, decide which works best for me.
My sensei had noticed when I first began this style that I had studied karate before. The only comment he had was for me to make sure that my cup is big enough to take in all that I could, and to be wary of rejecting information because it is different that what I had learned before. Easier said than done, but something definitely worth striving for.
I'm not saying this applies to Colleen, but it certainly applies to me more often than my ego would like to acknowledge.
It is difficult not to say anything, but I made the decision to "withhold judgement", learn their way to the best of my ability, and then when I have much more expereince and understanding, decide which works best for me.
My sensei had noticed when I first began this style that I had studied karate before. The only comment he had was for me to make sure that my cup is big enough to take in all that I could, and to be wary of rejecting information because it is different that what I had learned before. Easier said than done, but something definitely worth striving for.
I'm not saying this applies to Colleen, but it certainly applies to me more often than my ego would like to acknowledge.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Mary
Great to have you posting. Hopefully your sensei is as open minded as you appear to be.
Anyone that would criticize a classic style outright as having vulnerabilities perhaps is showing insecurities. But then... I can tell you that there were quite a few times when (as a dan in Goju Ryu) I had to bite my tongue when an advanced Uechi instructor at a seminar would sarcastically say "Goju people do it this way..." In one case, the person making that remark had a last name of Uechi, and he was dead wrong in his remark. Sigh...
So I guess I'm saying that it's human nature for teachers to show their deepest insecurities when facing "outsider" information. You should be very proud of yourself for being a great student, and learning to keep that cup with plenty of room in it. In the end, YOU will be the winner for it all.
And keep in touch! Once a Uechika, always a Uechika.
- Bill
Great to have you posting. Hopefully your sensei is as open minded as you appear to be.
Anyone that would criticize a classic style outright as having vulnerabilities perhaps is showing insecurities. But then... I can tell you that there were quite a few times when (as a dan in Goju Ryu) I had to bite my tongue when an advanced Uechi instructor at a seminar would sarcastically say "Goju people do it this way..." In one case, the person making that remark had a last name of Uechi, and he was dead wrong in his remark. Sigh...
So I guess I'm saying that it's human nature for teachers to show their deepest insecurities when facing "outsider" information. You should be very proud of yourself for being a great student, and learning to keep that cup with plenty of room in it. In the end, YOU will be the winner for it all.
And keep in touch! Once a Uechika, always a Uechika.
- Bill
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Mary - welcome to the women's forum!
First of all, kudos to you for getting back on the floor. It is not an easy thing to step back into a dojo after several years away. So good for you!
And your comments are important. Please don't feel like you're in a position to have to defend uechi as a style. That is a small discussion. The larger discussion is one that talks about all principles of combat and self-defense. Shorin ryu, in my experience, offers many principles to learn and study and apply. Some are different than Uechi, but none better or worse. It is simply a different paradigm or context used to examine the same question of what happens when two people get in a fight.
I hope you continue to enjoy your training in Shorin Ryu and I hope you drop by often to share what you're learning.
Dana
First of all, kudos to you for getting back on the floor. It is not an easy thing to step back into a dojo after several years away. So good for you!
And your comments are important. Please don't feel like you're in a position to have to defend uechi as a style. That is a small discussion. The larger discussion is one that talks about all principles of combat and self-defense. Shorin ryu, in my experience, offers many principles to learn and study and apply. Some are different than Uechi, but none better or worse. It is simply a different paradigm or context used to examine the same question of what happens when two people get in a fight.
I hope you continue to enjoy your training in Shorin Ryu and I hope you drop by often to share what you're learning.
Dana
Whose Karate is it anyway?
Hi,
My husband has a dojo, which I participate in and am currently practicing for a black road.
We had a student that held a black belt in several other styles, his most recent and imbedded was that of Goju ryu. I watched my husband as he taught this artist Uechi, and he allowed the Uechi style to blend so to speak a bit. Or maybe a better word is to "bend" and work for the student. He allowed to student- by his method of teaching him, let Uechi correct anything it needed to, or not. I think this is important in learning other styles. Create within yourself a complete defensive package, by allowing yourself the openness of spirit mind and body, to "let it decide" when practicing what it is you happen to be in. If your body sways Uechi- hopefully your new Sensei will "allow" that, for it is a natural thing coming out of your body. If that "something" isn't working right for you, it will change, if it is, don't scold it.
Just an option- It seemed to work well for the student we had. (note "had" though two sides I guess, but that will happen when you become a new daddy.)
Kerry
krymrgn@hotmail.com
My husband has a dojo, which I participate in and am currently practicing for a black road.
We had a student that held a black belt in several other styles, his most recent and imbedded was that of Goju ryu. I watched my husband as he taught this artist Uechi, and he allowed the Uechi style to blend so to speak a bit. Or maybe a better word is to "bend" and work for the student. He allowed to student- by his method of teaching him, let Uechi correct anything it needed to, or not. I think this is important in learning other styles. Create within yourself a complete defensive package, by allowing yourself the openness of spirit mind and body, to "let it decide" when practicing what it is you happen to be in. If your body sways Uechi- hopefully your new Sensei will "allow" that, for it is a natural thing coming out of your body. If that "something" isn't working right for you, it will change, if it is, don't scold it.
Just an option- It seemed to work well for the student we had. (note "had" though two sides I guess, but that will happen when you become a new daddy.)
Kerry
krymrgn@hotmail.com
