Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
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Bill Glasheen
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Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Let the discussion started by Lone Wolf continue...
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
What are the merits of the seisan jump and how do they relate to the threats implied by Mr. Wolf?
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Bill Glasheen
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Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Billy B
I think it teaches a general principle - basically getting the legs out of the way. Of course how you do that depends a lot on what kind of leg attack you are talking about.
Every time I do the "standard" seisan bunkai application, it pains me inside. Defending against a katana? Hardly something I expect to apply, never mind the fact that I'd rather have the sword. Frankly I think this particular bunkai is worthless and misguided. The probable real application is against the iron broom technique, common among certain Chinese stylists. Yes, even before the "new kids" discovered them, leg attacks were common in the Fuzhou area.
Iron broom is basically a kicking attack to the legs. Shooting, on the other hand, is an upper body attack. The latter is the attack we face in the seisan bunkai with the head redirection and subsequent knee thrust. Our "Lone Wolf" is familiar with "sprawling" as a response to this. Basically you scoot your legs back out of reach and drop your weight onto the back of the shooter. This works great if you plan on going to the ground. But as others and I have pointed out, this isn't necessarily the best thing to do on the street - particularly if you are facing multiple opponents. One does not want to spend more than a second or two in a clinch or you are easy pickings for the other bad guys. The principle is the same though - get the legs out of the way, and don't meet the momentum of the attack head on. Whether it be by jumping (for an extremely low shoot or iron broom), redirecting (as in the knee thrust application), or sprawling, one keeps the legs out of the clinch and one's center away from the path of the bull.
- Bill
I think it teaches a general principle - basically getting the legs out of the way. Of course how you do that depends a lot on what kind of leg attack you are talking about.
Every time I do the "standard" seisan bunkai application, it pains me inside. Defending against a katana? Hardly something I expect to apply, never mind the fact that I'd rather have the sword. Frankly I think this particular bunkai is worthless and misguided. The probable real application is against the iron broom technique, common among certain Chinese stylists. Yes, even before the "new kids" discovered them, leg attacks were common in the Fuzhou area.
Iron broom is basically a kicking attack to the legs. Shooting, on the other hand, is an upper body attack. The latter is the attack we face in the seisan bunkai with the head redirection and subsequent knee thrust. Our "Lone Wolf" is familiar with "sprawling" as a response to this. Basically you scoot your legs back out of reach and drop your weight onto the back of the shooter. This works great if you plan on going to the ground. But as others and I have pointed out, this isn't necessarily the best thing to do on the street - particularly if you are facing multiple opponents. One does not want to spend more than a second or two in a clinch or you are easy pickings for the other bad guys. The principle is the same though - get the legs out of the way, and don't meet the momentum of the attack head on. Whether it be by jumping (for an extremely low shoot or iron broom), redirecting (as in the knee thrust application), or sprawling, one keeps the legs out of the clinch and one's center away from the path of the bull.
- Bill
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Bill-Sensei,
OK. Thanks. So why are we moving our hands/arms like that? If its a defense against an iron broom or a shoot, there would be no need. I have always thought of the movement as teaching us to throw one leg back and the other slightly forward, like the way you switch feet in dan kumite #1 as the defender. Also, I have considered a possible leg-scissor application - which I have read was also a popular southern Chinese application.
I'm not sure if this applies or not, but I beleive there are a couple of tales of Kanbun Uechi leaping onto an attacker's back to subdue him(in Uechi-ryu karatedo by GEM).
OK. Thanks. So why are we moving our hands/arms like that? If its a defense against an iron broom or a shoot, there would be no need. I have always thought of the movement as teaching us to throw one leg back and the other slightly forward, like the way you switch feet in dan kumite #1 as the defender. Also, I have considered a possible leg-scissor application - which I have read was also a popular southern Chinese application.
I'm not sure if this applies or not, but I beleive there are a couple of tales of Kanbun Uechi leaping onto an attacker's back to subdue him(in Uechi-ryu karatedo by GEM).
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
WHHHOOOOOWWWEEEEEIIIII!!!!!!!!!
Straw Man! That's good!
Iron Broom. Bunkai. Chi? Doesn't any one get the drift?
You are searching old dead static techniques of Kata to answer the Live question of movement application.
Movement application? Yes, not just movement for the sake of movement, that's called Kata.
But Movement application. The application of movement with free flowing fully resistent opponents. Application is the truest form of fighting. Not mock shadow boxing.
And for the wise ass who's gonna get robbed after turning the corner of the bank, what do you think most people do when they are getting pummled in the head and torso?
They try to close the gap and grab to smother the onslaught. Dive and tackle. Can you move backward faster than you can move forward? If not then you will end up on the ground. Are you ready for that? This is obvious I don't know why I bother.
Straw Man! That's good!
Iron Broom. Bunkai. Chi? Doesn't any one get the drift?
You are searching old dead static techniques of Kata to answer the Live question of movement application.
Movement application? Yes, not just movement for the sake of movement, that's called Kata.
But Movement application. The application of movement with free flowing fully resistent opponents. Application is the truest form of fighting. Not mock shadow boxing.
And for the wise ass who's gonna get robbed after turning the corner of the bank, what do you think most people do when they are getting pummled in the head and torso?
They try to close the gap and grab to smother the onslaught. Dive and tackle. Can you move backward faster than you can move forward? If not then you will end up on the ground. Are you ready for that? This is obvious I don't know why I bother.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Mr. Wolf,
"I don't know why I bother." That is a good question for you to ponder. Let us know when you figure it out.
Good point about the dynamics of a fight being far different than bunkai(which means application), Kata, or "mock shadow boxing". That is an issue that has been discussed before on these forums. Now perhaps you could suggest a solution to our training dilema? How do you train? Do you get into REAL fights on the street?(from your attitude I would guess you might!) Have you practiced Kata? Or do you just read a lot of magazines and watch the UFC?
You sound like a WANNA-BE to me.
"I don't know why I bother." That is a good question for you to ponder. Let us know when you figure it out.
Good point about the dynamics of a fight being far different than bunkai(which means application), Kata, or "mock shadow boxing". That is an issue that has been discussed before on these forums. Now perhaps you could suggest a solution to our training dilema? How do you train? Do you get into REAL fights on the street?(from your attitude I would guess you might!) Have you practiced Kata? Or do you just read a lot of magazines and watch the UFC?
You sound like a WANNA-BE to me.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Incredible!
Thirty years ago I read Classical Rhetoric and Debate at Temple.
You bring to mind the time the Oxford debate team toured the states, and began their argument with.
"Being learned men, we will chose to speak only in the language of learned men." (or something on that line) and proceeded to do the rest of the debate in LATIN!
I stand and applaud your use of logical analysis and debate.
I know not who you are, but we are better for you.
Victor
Thirty years ago I read Classical Rhetoric and Debate at Temple.
You bring to mind the time the Oxford debate team toured the states, and began their argument with.
"Being learned men, we will chose to speak only in the language of learned men." (or something on that line) and proceeded to do the rest of the debate in LATIN!
I stand and applaud your use of logical analysis and debate.
I know not who you are, but we are better for you.
Victor
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Thanks for the complement, Victor!
Doc. X
Your a smart guy who says nothing.
You use a lot of words that say nothing. Kind of like Socrates," goodness is good because it partakes of goodness".
Get my drift?
keep posting though, it's good for a laugh.
Doc. X
Your a smart guy who says nothing.
You use a lot of words that say nothing. Kind of like Socrates," goodness is good because it partakes of goodness".
Get my drift?
keep posting though, it's good for a laugh.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
How could I ever have mistaken Victor's post to be praising J.D., when our loquacious lupine claims the praise belongs to him? Silly, silly me.
Certainly there is no question that J.D. uses many words; the collegial cur's revelation that he does not understand them does not make them meaningless.
True: J.D.'s musings stir merriment - at frenetic Fido's expense.
Sadly, it is incredibly obvious that our pussilanimous puppy's housebreaking was deficient.
Cavete Canem!
Certainly there is no question that J.D. uses many words; the collegial cur's revelation that he does not understand them does not make them meaningless.
True: J.D.'s musings stir merriment - at frenetic Fido's expense.
Sadly, it is incredibly obvious that our pussilanimous puppy's housebreaking was deficient.
Cavete Canem!
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
I wish to clarify....
I am applauding the good Doctor "X" and his incredible rhetorical skills.
I'm afraid the wolf dosen't take the meaning of his argument.
Frankly, rather than discuss air, delusions of grandeur, or old bad movies, those of us who are suffering the false delusions of course that our 'classical' arts of karate are worthy, might want to discuss with more substance how to generate more power towards the lower quadrant.
My mistaken assumption that the real purpose of kata is to develop the energy of an adept in their technique, and the real purpose of bunkai is to learn how to utilitze that energy against various attacks.
Our worthless kata have numerous examples of where our strikes can be directed against lower quadrant attacks. Consider the work we did in Ueichi Seisan regarding same. I can show similar examples in Isshinryu Seisan, Goju and Isshinryu Seiuchin, and so forth.
How do we increase the power of those descending strikes to cause greater trama against that lower attack, towards the neck, the head and the spine?
Of course as separate issue is how to angle off of that lower attack to allow more time to respond and provide a better target against that which is so fully being offered.
My I'm glad my classical training is worthless.
On a separate note, I notice that occasionally part of what I post does not make it into the server? In this case a sentence listing the good Doctor's name.
Victor Smith
I am applauding the good Doctor "X" and his incredible rhetorical skills.
I'm afraid the wolf dosen't take the meaning of his argument.
Frankly, rather than discuss air, delusions of grandeur, or old bad movies, those of us who are suffering the false delusions of course that our 'classical' arts of karate are worthy, might want to discuss with more substance how to generate more power towards the lower quadrant.
My mistaken assumption that the real purpose of kata is to develop the energy of an adept in their technique, and the real purpose of bunkai is to learn how to utilitze that energy against various attacks.
Our worthless kata have numerous examples of where our strikes can be directed against lower quadrant attacks. Consider the work we did in Ueichi Seisan regarding same. I can show similar examples in Isshinryu Seisan, Goju and Isshinryu Seiuchin, and so forth.
How do we increase the power of those descending strikes to cause greater trama against that lower attack, towards the neck, the head and the spine?
Of course as separate issue is how to angle off of that lower attack to allow more time to respond and provide a better target against that which is so fully being offered.
My I'm glad my classical training is worthless.
On a separate note, I notice that occasionally part of what I post does not make it into the server? In this case a sentence listing the good Doctor's name.
Victor Smith
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Kevin Mackie
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Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
LW,
While there may not be much argument about bunkai and kata being a poor substitute for "the real thing",(yet to be defined by you, please feel free to enlighten us) I would contend that any training method alone of any nature cannot prepare you for real world confrontations. Every situation calls for a unique response to a threat. (reference: Verbal SD Forum, click back, click back, scroll down, click,…there ya go)
Nevertheless….
Try this tact. Make your points about training methods and how they are better than traditional MA training. For sake of argument, we can accept the presumption that your training is more effective for i.e , self defense, wrasslin', or whatever, please be concise. Then, back up your claims with valid logical arguments and examples (if any), then close by restating your points. (This is a simplification of Plato's, (a dead guy who was nearly as smart as some of the people here), classical Greek oration.)
It is bad form and even worse rhetoric to simply state, "What y'all do *****". It may in the end be true, but if you are to convince anyone otherwise, do so through valid reasoning.
Kevin
While there may not be much argument about bunkai and kata being a poor substitute for "the real thing",(yet to be defined by you, please feel free to enlighten us) I would contend that any training method alone of any nature cannot prepare you for real world confrontations. Every situation calls for a unique response to a threat. (reference: Verbal SD Forum, click back, click back, scroll down, click,…there ya go)
Nevertheless….
Try this tact. Make your points about training methods and how they are better than traditional MA training. For sake of argument, we can accept the presumption that your training is more effective for i.e , self defense, wrasslin', or whatever, please be concise. Then, back up your claims with valid logical arguments and examples (if any), then close by restating your points. (This is a simplification of Plato's, (a dead guy who was nearly as smart as some of the people here), classical Greek oration.)
It is bad form and even worse rhetoric to simply state, "What y'all do *****". It may in the end be true, but if you are to convince anyone otherwise, do so through valid reasoning.
Kevin
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Gentlemen:
A little playful abuse is part of the art of war. If we keep it clean and (please) stay away from the personal stuff, I'll allow for it - as long as we still have a valid topic being discussed. Remember though that in the spirit of budo, we must not engage in wanton decimation of our opponent(s), as we wish to have worthy partners around to spar with on another day. While one party may not see merit in the other(s)' point of view, the fact that such arguments are being waged in the debate about "what is real" makes pursuing them a worthwhile cause - no matter how flawed the opponent(s)' viewpoint appears. And the fact that your debate opponent envisions something that "works" in some venue makes it worthy of consideration for us all - no matter how well or poorly the argument is articulated. Perhaps we should refocus our eyes away from the finger and instead attempt to view the moon that it points to.
Exposing flaws is indeed part of the art of war, and this art does not have the boundaries (physical or figurative) that many would attribute to it. Indeed it was the very point that Lone Wolf brought to the table at the beginning of the thread. What comes to mind as I don my observer's robe is the fact that there is a rather broad force continuum on the table here. I'm left scratching my head about what is relevant and what should be edited. Right now I'm keeping the red pen in my pocket. Please...help me keep it there.
Lone Wolf
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Iron Broom. Bunkai. Chi? Doesn't any one get the drift?
You are searching old dead static techniques of Kata to answer the Live question of movement application.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's only fair to tell you that - as an "outsider" - several terms and one joking reference went right past you. Once again...you assumed too much about your debating opponent in your counterattack. Relax!
Iron Broom - This is a name (like "shooting") of a fighting application. There are several ways to apply this, depending on the situation and the preferences. Basically one drops down low and sweeps the opponent's leg(s) out from underneath him. I am not aware of any kata that contains this move. In fact - it is not a specific technique. It is a partner-to-partner application of one of a number of techniques.
bunkai - Translated literally, it means "analysis". This is the process of taking movements from kata and connecting them to <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
chi - We could go on and on... There are other "chi-friendly" forums on this web page. Our good Doctor X and others (myself included) are trained in the western sciences. In god we trust; everyone else must supply data. The "chi" reference was a sarcastic one; it was a (naughty) slap in the face to others (debating opponents from previous threads) who believe in it. It was a joke, damnit! 'Nuff said.
- The moderator
A little playful abuse is part of the art of war. If we keep it clean and (please) stay away from the personal stuff, I'll allow for it - as long as we still have a valid topic being discussed. Remember though that in the spirit of budo, we must not engage in wanton decimation of our opponent(s), as we wish to have worthy partners around to spar with on another day. While one party may not see merit in the other(s)' point of view, the fact that such arguments are being waged in the debate about "what is real" makes pursuing them a worthwhile cause - no matter how flawed the opponent(s)' viewpoint appears. And the fact that your debate opponent envisions something that "works" in some venue makes it worthy of consideration for us all - no matter how well or poorly the argument is articulated. Perhaps we should refocus our eyes away from the finger and instead attempt to view the moon that it points to.
Exposing flaws is indeed part of the art of war, and this art does not have the boundaries (physical or figurative) that many would attribute to it. Indeed it was the very point that Lone Wolf brought to the table at the beginning of the thread. What comes to mind as I don my observer's robe is the fact that there is a rather broad force continuum on the table here. I'm left scratching my head about what is relevant and what should be edited. Right now I'm keeping the red pen in my pocket. Please...help me keep it there.
Lone Wolf
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Iron Broom. Bunkai. Chi? Doesn't any one get the drift?
You are searching old dead static techniques of Kata to answer the Live question of movement application.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's only fair to tell you that - as an "outsider" - several terms and one joking reference went right past you. Once again...you assumed too much about your debating opponent in your counterattack. Relax!
Iron Broom - This is a name (like "shooting") of a fighting application. There are several ways to apply this, depending on the situation and the preferences. Basically one drops down low and sweeps the opponent's leg(s) out from underneath him. I am not aware of any kata that contains this move. In fact - it is not a specific technique. It is a partner-to-partner application of one of a number of techniques.
bunkai - Translated literally, it means "analysis". This is the process of taking movements from kata and connecting them to <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To quote another, you argue best when you argue my point.The application of movement with free flowing fully resistent opponents.
chi - We could go on and on... There are other "chi-friendly" forums on this web page. Our good Doctor X and others (myself included) are trained in the western sciences. In god we trust; everyone else must supply data. The "chi" reference was a sarcastic one; it was a (naughty) slap in the face to others (debating opponents from previous threads) who believe in it. It was a joke, damnit! 'Nuff said.
- The moderator
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Lone Wolf: Why not attend the Uechi summer camp this year in Mass. Put on a seminar and shows what you have been talking about? Instead of spouting pointless comments about how useless Karate applications are, show us. I am sure most people on these forums including myself would love to see the "error of our ways". I have noticed that the one thing about the regular visitors on these forums are, are opened minded. If you have something of value to teach we'll listen. I for one would love to see where the holes lie in Uechi-ryu. The gauntlet has been tossed the question now is, will you pick it up?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Billy B
I'm going to give you a "for instance" in the case of the shooter.
Let's go way back to the part of seisan where one is doing the groin strikes. Now...why in god's name do you do a wauke after each and every one of them? No...I do not believe that the primary application was against some bozo miming your walking pattern from behind and suddenly bearhugging you (although we try to make it work in the seisan bunkai). Rather consider what happens when you slap the groin of someone right in front of you. If you succeed in getting a direct hit and "squeeze the lemon(s) until the juice runs down their leg"....game over. You need not go further.
But a smart fighter with good instincts will draw the hips back to avoid the groin smack. And so where is their head and neck? And what happens now if you bring that wauke around and down - as an attack? You will hit the neck somewhere between C1 and C3, and possibly create a new Christopher Reeves poster child. Game over once again.
Now...take the grappler. Suppose he hurls himself at your legs coming very low. The initial instinct could be to immediately sprawl. That wouldn't be a bad thing, unless we want to avoid going down to the ground. Instead one could perform the sequence at the end of seisan. Initially one gets the legs out of the way. And where is the left arm? Poised to throw a wauke. Where are the arms? Potentially inside the grabbing arms, creating space. Remember - he may fake and grab high. Now in the second half of the movement, here comes the wauke, with the legs being thrown out. In real application, you don't have to be straight up and down. But certainly you have posted yourself in a fashion where you can better handle the forward momentum for just a second. You could indeed have the legs slightly back out of the way, and countering the forward momentum with your own. And what of the wauke - as attack rather than block? Remember, the attacking surface could be the hand, the forearm, or even the elbow if you are now in contact with the shooter. Where is the attacker's head and neck? Game over. You could always throw the final three techniques....
I am not suggesting this is the application. But it gives you an idea of the many movements available to attacker and defender. And in the "real situation", what would work? That depends. Against a solo attacker, I should probably sprawl to maximize my odds of success. The second half of the seisan jump movement (alone) is basically the same thing, but applied in a very specialized fashion. And we are attacking while avoiding the leg clinch. If Mr. Wolf isn't "Lone" (and wolves travel in packs...) I'm not sprawling, baby. I don't want to mess around in a clinch but for a few brief seconds. Instead I want to stay unclinched to maximize my possibilities - no matter how bleak.
In the end, the best execution wins.
- Bill
I'm going to give you a "for instance" in the case of the shooter.
Let's go way back to the part of seisan where one is doing the groin strikes. Now...why in god's name do you do a wauke after each and every one of them? No...I do not believe that the primary application was against some bozo miming your walking pattern from behind and suddenly bearhugging you (although we try to make it work in the seisan bunkai). Rather consider what happens when you slap the groin of someone right in front of you. If you succeed in getting a direct hit and "squeeze the lemon(s) until the juice runs down their leg"....game over. You need not go further.
But a smart fighter with good instincts will draw the hips back to avoid the groin smack. And so where is their head and neck? And what happens now if you bring that wauke around and down - as an attack? You will hit the neck somewhere between C1 and C3, and possibly create a new Christopher Reeves poster child. Game over once again.
Now...take the grappler. Suppose he hurls himself at your legs coming very low. The initial instinct could be to immediately sprawl. That wouldn't be a bad thing, unless we want to avoid going down to the ground. Instead one could perform the sequence at the end of seisan. Initially one gets the legs out of the way. And where is the left arm? Poised to throw a wauke. Where are the arms? Potentially inside the grabbing arms, creating space. Remember - he may fake and grab high. Now in the second half of the movement, here comes the wauke, with the legs being thrown out. In real application, you don't have to be straight up and down. But certainly you have posted yourself in a fashion where you can better handle the forward momentum for just a second. You could indeed have the legs slightly back out of the way, and countering the forward momentum with your own. And what of the wauke - as attack rather than block? Remember, the attacking surface could be the hand, the forearm, or even the elbow if you are now in contact with the shooter. Where is the attacker's head and neck? Game over. You could always throw the final three techniques....
I am not suggesting this is the application. But it gives you an idea of the many movements available to attacker and defender. And in the "real situation", what would work? That depends. Against a solo attacker, I should probably sprawl to maximize my odds of success. The second half of the seisan jump movement (alone) is basically the same thing, but applied in a very specialized fashion. And we are attacking while avoiding the leg clinch. If Mr. Wolf isn't "Lone" (and wolves travel in packs...) I'm not sprawling, baby. I don't want to mess around in a clinch but for a few brief seconds. Instead I want to stay unclinched to maximize my possibilities - no matter how bleak.
In the end, the best execution wins.
- Bill
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Bill G-Sensei
Very good point about the wauke used a strike. One of the principles Van Canna Sensei teaches at the TC classes.
If used at 110% (quote Van) while practicing the kata.
Each move of the kata was broken down and practiced at 110% for say 20 times before doing the kata in entirety. (Pardon me Van while I give away the house) By effectively performing our katas in this fashion, I am more confident about my own mindset, if/when confronted with a martial decision to make and had to use my karate training.
Would it work on any possible attack. I have 8 katas of movements to use. I know what will work on low techniques and high techniques. Each situation is unique. I am in total agreement with a shooter trying to take you down when there are multiple attackers. It makes sense that you cannot let yourself be taken down in that situation. But one on one, would you want to be in a groundfight if you had the slightest doubt how to survive it.
I am not a cross trainer yet. I do train with spinning back kicks and wheel kicks (not in the uechi-ryu katas) so I will know how to counter them. But if I was to be shot, shooted, taken down (pick one)by a good groundfighter. I would use all of my training at 110% to get out of it. Even if that means biting, (yes exactly like Mike Tyson) spitting, head butting, elbows (definately in the katas)and knees.
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 14, 2000).]
Very good point about the wauke used a strike. One of the principles Van Canna Sensei teaches at the TC classes.
If used at 110% (quote Van) while practicing the kata.
Each move of the kata was broken down and practiced at 110% for say 20 times before doing the kata in entirety. (Pardon me Van while I give away the house) By effectively performing our katas in this fashion, I am more confident about my own mindset, if/when confronted with a martial decision to make and had to use my karate training.
Would it work on any possible attack. I have 8 katas of movements to use. I know what will work on low techniques and high techniques. Each situation is unique. I am in total agreement with a shooter trying to take you down when there are multiple attackers. It makes sense that you cannot let yourself be taken down in that situation. But one on one, would you want to be in a groundfight if you had the slightest doubt how to survive it.
I am not a cross trainer yet. I do train with spinning back kicks and wheel kicks (not in the uechi-ryu katas) so I will know how to counter them. But if I was to be shot, shooted, taken down (pick one)by a good groundfighter. I would use all of my training at 110% to get out of it. Even if that means biting, (yes exactly like Mike Tyson) spitting, head butting, elbows (definately in the katas)and knees.
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 14, 2000).]
