I have posted these questions at several other Forums.
Why do you practice Kata?
What purpose does it serve for you?
Where is your Mind as you train Katas?
The other Forums were NHB oriented so I figured the best place to ask this is at a Kata Based Forum.
Kata.
Moderator: Available
Kata.
Why do I practice kata? Because techniques are words and kata is basic grammar.
What purpose does kata serve? It trains combinations to reflex.
Where is my mind during kata? Nowhere. Stimulus received and response generated without conscious thought.
Rory
What purpose does kata serve? It trains combinations to reflex.
Where is my mind during kata? Nowhere. Stimulus received and response generated without conscious thought.
Rory
Kata.
SteppenBill,
Good questions. The only thing for sure that I get from doing kata is enjoyment. It seems like my state of mind changes as soon as I get in ready position. Like self hypnosis. Lets see, there's also the feeling of putting your body through it's paces. Different perceptions of movement.
My conscious mind seems to do different things while going through the motions. Sometimes I might see an abstract of an application, for a fleeting moment. Then I might pay attention to my stance during a transition. For one strike I might let go and feel some power, and next just slowly ease into a strike and try to feel the form.
I might do a kata with an intense mindset, or I might feel like I'm dancing on the moon, or in water.
Sometimes when I do a side kick, for instance, I see a flash of someone breaking my knee. Sometimes I see blood, and pain, and sorrow.
When I'm done I usually feel pretty centered. And alert, but not nervous. Also humbled.
To me, kata is the dance of life and death.
------------------
sean
Good questions. The only thing for sure that I get from doing kata is enjoyment. It seems like my state of mind changes as soon as I get in ready position. Like self hypnosis. Lets see, there's also the feeling of putting your body through it's paces. Different perceptions of movement.
My conscious mind seems to do different things while going through the motions. Sometimes I might see an abstract of an application, for a fleeting moment. Then I might pay attention to my stance during a transition. For one strike I might let go and feel some power, and next just slowly ease into a strike and try to feel the form.
I might do a kata with an intense mindset, or I might feel like I'm dancing on the moon, or in water.
Sometimes when I do a side kick, for instance, I see a flash of someone breaking my knee. Sometimes I see blood, and pain, and sorrow.
When I'm done I usually feel pretty centered. And alert, but not nervous. Also humbled.
To me, kata is the dance of life and death.
------------------
sean
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Allen M.
Kata.
I do kata because it feels good.
Lone, what does NHB stand for?
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Lone, what does NHB stand for?
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Kata.
NHB = No Holds Barred.
Interesting comments on Kata. I used to practice Kata. In the style of Karate that I studied it was pretty balanced between free fighting and Kata practice.
Later in my Jujitsu studies the Katas were much shorter. The sequences not as complex. I enjoyed this very much.
However over time Kata began to sour for me. my application in competition looked NOTHING like Kata. It hardly resembled the original technique. Kata must be practiced first to learn form, however, kata must be trancended to really understand the ART. I don't think the originators of the Arts would have wanted us to become so fixated with Kata.
Interesting comments on Kata. I used to practice Kata. In the style of Karate that I studied it was pretty balanced between free fighting and Kata practice.
Later in my Jujitsu studies the Katas were much shorter. The sequences not as complex. I enjoyed this very much.
However over time Kata began to sour for me. my application in competition looked NOTHING like Kata. It hardly resembled the original technique. Kata must be practiced first to learn form, however, kata must be trancended to really understand the ART. I don't think the originators of the Arts would have wanted us to become so fixated with Kata.
Kata.
LW,
>>Later in my Jujitsu studies the Katas were much shorter. The sequences not as complex. I enjoyed this very much.
However over time Kata began to sour for me. my application in competition looked NOTHING like Kata. It hardly resembled the original technique. Kata must be practiced first to learn form, however, kata must be trancended to really understand the ART. I don't think the originators of the Arts would have wanted us to become so fixated with Kata. <<
I agree with what you said and how you said it.
david
>>Later in my Jujitsu studies the Katas were much shorter. The sequences not as complex. I enjoyed this very much.
However over time Kata began to sour for me. my application in competition looked NOTHING like Kata. It hardly resembled the original technique. Kata must be practiced first to learn form, however, kata must be trancended to really understand the ART. I don't think the originators of the Arts would have wanted us to become so fixated with Kata. <<
I agree with what you said and how you said it.
david
Kata.
Do you not find the movements of Kata Unnatural? I know that I do.
I have never moved in such a way as to resemble Kata in free play.
The unchanged movements of Kata are too stiff and ridgid for me to apply with out being over ran due to the lack of freedom of movement.
What I mean here is that the Kata's that I have learned focus on Power. They tend to have Short, sharp bursts of explosive attacks, but not the relaxed flow that you can get into through a more spontaneous response.
A modified Kata technique worked, but certainly not the original pure form.
I thus concluded that that is how it's suppose to work. The technique of Kata is just a guideline to be used to form a more appropriate counter or defense.
I have never moved in such a way as to resemble Kata in free play.
The unchanged movements of Kata are too stiff and ridgid for me to apply with out being over ran due to the lack of freedom of movement.
What I mean here is that the Kata's that I have learned focus on Power. They tend to have Short, sharp bursts of explosive attacks, but not the relaxed flow that you can get into through a more spontaneous response.
A modified Kata technique worked, but certainly not the original pure form.
I thus concluded that that is how it's suppose to work. The technique of Kata is just a guideline to be used to form a more appropriate counter or defense.
Kata.
"The technique of Kata is just a guideline to be used to form a more appropriate counter or defense."
Yes and No.
. Kata in it's most basic form is an exercise that teaches the body power, technique, balance and mind set. It can even teach a person how to fight. Meaning that if you can't perform a technique in kata you'll never be able to even come close to doing it when under pressure.
LW you have hit on a good point when you say you never seem to apply a technique that's exactly from the Kata. That's because there aren't any exact techniques. On the surface Kata does look very ridged and shallow. What you see in Kata is just one example usually the most basic and easy to remember. And those techniques can be very effective. But, it's up to the practitioner to bring the kata alive and allow it to grow with your study. At one time you posted that you don't understand why anyone would hide particular movements in Kata. I don't believe movements have been hidden like people think. I believe with certain adjustments, techniques out of kata can be used several different ways. So in that case your right it is just a guideline.
Yes and No.
. Kata in it's most basic form is an exercise that teaches the body power, technique, balance and mind set. It can even teach a person how to fight. Meaning that if you can't perform a technique in kata you'll never be able to even come close to doing it when under pressure.
LW you have hit on a good point when you say you never seem to apply a technique that's exactly from the Kata. That's because there aren't any exact techniques. On the surface Kata does look very ridged and shallow. What you see in Kata is just one example usually the most basic and easy to remember. And those techniques can be very effective. But, it's up to the practitioner to bring the kata alive and allow it to grow with your study. At one time you posted that you don't understand why anyone would hide particular movements in Kata. I don't believe movements have been hidden like people think. I believe with certain adjustments, techniques out of kata can be used several different ways. So in that case your right it is just a guideline.
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maurice richard libby
Kata.
L-W,
A very good question. I think, though, that the answer will vary a lot, depending on the teacher/style/school etc.
I used to do Shotokan. Kata was " a series of attacks and defences agaisnt imaginary opponents". That worked for me for a while, but I could never quite fit realistic scenarios into the katas. Then it became "moving meditation", that worked and works for me still. It's also is/was a pretty good conditioning tool, if done right.
In the past three or four years, though, I've come to see kata as primarily a method for teaching proper body dynamics. To do that, however, I had to change not the sequences of moves, (although I did do that for other reasons), but the techniques themselves. The way they were done in Shotokan, at least, they were, as you said, unnatural with stances that were too low, etc. In essence, I de-evolved the techniques to their pre-Shotokan root versions--higher, more natural stances, etc.The more natural the technique, the more you learn/imprint/program the correct body mechanics. So the Shotokan I practiced for about 18 years came to look more like Shorin Ryu, (although not much like many of the Shorin Ryu variants I've seen). I did not do this on my own, by the way, but with the help of many people among them George Donahue, Chris Walton, Paris Janos, and other Kishaba Juka stylists who have this down to a very precise degree, much more than I do.
As an aside: the stuff I do is very easy to integrate into the Uechi Ryu katas.
Secondarily, I see katas as encyclopedias of tactics, but that takes a very different approach--it is more of a mnemonic device--or even a little less concrete--as a way of making me think "outside the box"--sort of like the way I look at the I Ching nothing mystical or paranormal, but just a way to make me look at things in a new way. As far as kata goes, I basically say to myself, "If this move is NOT a punch, what is it?" and then go from there.
The way this works is that all usable techniques, (as far as I am concerned) are made up of the same small number of body movements (the KISS principle) so that a punch and a hip throw are the same thing with different results. I'm not sure this is making sense, but the point is that every technique is simple, and consists of gross motor skills--in theory at least. Kata becomes a tool of analysis, then. just remember that to me this is a secondary use of kata.
Thirdly, kata is a way to train when you don;t hae a partner handy. If I had a training partner handy whenever I needed one, I might not need kata, but my life is such that I train alone most of the time. Remember that kata, as we know them evolved during a time when the Martial Arts were practiced at least partly in secret and largely alone, so they were, in part, a method to practice when there was no one else to practice on. Patrick McCarthy has saud that in the old days kata was only taught after the student was taught technique and learned it with a partner, so kata was a way to retain the techniques and tactics that were already internalized.
And, fourthly--I really enjoy doing kata, to me it's fun, and relaxing, and yes-- a form of moving meditation.
yours,
maurice
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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited April 16, 2000).]
A very good question. I think, though, that the answer will vary a lot, depending on the teacher/style/school etc.
I used to do Shotokan. Kata was " a series of attacks and defences agaisnt imaginary opponents". That worked for me for a while, but I could never quite fit realistic scenarios into the katas. Then it became "moving meditation", that worked and works for me still. It's also is/was a pretty good conditioning tool, if done right.
In the past three or four years, though, I've come to see kata as primarily a method for teaching proper body dynamics. To do that, however, I had to change not the sequences of moves, (although I did do that for other reasons), but the techniques themselves. The way they were done in Shotokan, at least, they were, as you said, unnatural with stances that were too low, etc. In essence, I de-evolved the techniques to their pre-Shotokan root versions--higher, more natural stances, etc.The more natural the technique, the more you learn/imprint/program the correct body mechanics. So the Shotokan I practiced for about 18 years came to look more like Shorin Ryu, (although not much like many of the Shorin Ryu variants I've seen). I did not do this on my own, by the way, but with the help of many people among them George Donahue, Chris Walton, Paris Janos, and other Kishaba Juka stylists who have this down to a very precise degree, much more than I do.
As an aside: the stuff I do is very easy to integrate into the Uechi Ryu katas.
Secondarily, I see katas as encyclopedias of tactics, but that takes a very different approach--it is more of a mnemonic device--or even a little less concrete--as a way of making me think "outside the box"--sort of like the way I look at the I Ching nothing mystical or paranormal, but just a way to make me look at things in a new way. As far as kata goes, I basically say to myself, "If this move is NOT a punch, what is it?" and then go from there.
The way this works is that all usable techniques, (as far as I am concerned) are made up of the same small number of body movements (the KISS principle) so that a punch and a hip throw are the same thing with different results. I'm not sure this is making sense, but the point is that every technique is simple, and consists of gross motor skills--in theory at least. Kata becomes a tool of analysis, then. just remember that to me this is a secondary use of kata.
Thirdly, kata is a way to train when you don;t hae a partner handy. If I had a training partner handy whenever I needed one, I might not need kata, but my life is such that I train alone most of the time. Remember that kata, as we know them evolved during a time when the Martial Arts were practiced at least partly in secret and largely alone, so they were, in part, a method to practice when there was no one else to practice on. Patrick McCarthy has saud that in the old days kata was only taught after the student was taught technique and learned it with a partner, so kata was a way to retain the techniques and tactics that were already internalized.
And, fourthly--I really enjoy doing kata, to me it's fun, and relaxing, and yes-- a form of moving meditation.
yours,
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited April 16, 2000).]
Kata.
Well I will say this. I don't think that Kata is the end all be all of fighting.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is an outstanding Solo Training method.
That is my biggest problem with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. It's a two man Art. That's the biggest complaint that I have with Grappling. You just can't do it alone.
I always enjoyed going outside about midnight and practicing my Tang Soo Do Katas.
Now I have been focusing on Jujitsu the last few years and I must admit that I have let my Karate training suffer. FOR SHAME! I can hear all the Boos and Hissing right now.
Perhaps I will research my old Katas. For maybe, just maybe there is some value in them.
[This message has been edited by Lone Wolf (edited April 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lone Wolf (edited April 16, 2000).]
I wholeheartedly agree that it is an outstanding Solo Training method.
That is my biggest problem with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. It's a two man Art. That's the biggest complaint that I have with Grappling. You just can't do it alone.
I always enjoyed going outside about midnight and practicing my Tang Soo Do Katas.
Now I have been focusing on Jujitsu the last few years and I must admit that I have let my Karate training suffer. FOR SHAME! I can hear all the Boos and Hissing right now.
Perhaps I will research my old Katas. For maybe, just maybe there is some value in them.
[This message has been edited by Lone Wolf (edited April 16, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lone Wolf (edited April 16, 2000).]
Kata.
Good discussion thusfar.
I think the key, for me, in LW's orginal post is "transcending" the kata.
Kata is the basics and all martial arts have basics though they may not refer them as "kata." The plus of kata is that you can train alone. The minus is that it is hard to learn the timing, distance and reflex required for true exchanges.
The next step up from kata is the prearranged kumite. Jujutsu and aikido practice generally focus much on their training on two man sets. These too are variations of kata. There is a form to them. The plus is that you get the feel for a partner as you do the technique that you can't doing solo kata. The problem that can arise here is complacency. Where the partners get too cooperative or, in prearranged kumite, partners anticipate the next move.
The next step up on this is to resist more and/or to go faster. But still there is a form. Folks can in jujutsu/aikido can actually foil the move because they know what's coming. People doing prearranged kumite can change up on the moves but the defender may not pick up on that because he is still working off the script and can get hurt as a result.
The next step up must be a controlled freestyle where attacks and defenses are kept to a minimum number 2,3, or 4 max. (I call these reflex drills.) It begins to allow one to break out of the form and to do what the body hopefully has learned in the basics.
Last step in the dojo is the all out freestyle.
Maurice,
>>Remember that kata, as we know them evolved during a time when the Martial Arts were practiced at least partly in secret and largely alone, so they were, in part, a method to practice when there was no one else to practice on. Patrick McCarthy has saud that in the old days kata was only taught after the student was taught technique and learned it with a partner, so kata was a way to retain the techniques and tactics that were already internalized.<<
I don't know if that was true but it makes a lot of sense to me.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 16, 2000).]
I think the key, for me, in LW's orginal post is "transcending" the kata.
Kata is the basics and all martial arts have basics though they may not refer them as "kata." The plus of kata is that you can train alone. The minus is that it is hard to learn the timing, distance and reflex required for true exchanges.
The next step up from kata is the prearranged kumite. Jujutsu and aikido practice generally focus much on their training on two man sets. These too are variations of kata. There is a form to them. The plus is that you get the feel for a partner as you do the technique that you can't doing solo kata. The problem that can arise here is complacency. Where the partners get too cooperative or, in prearranged kumite, partners anticipate the next move.
The next step up on this is to resist more and/or to go faster. But still there is a form. Folks can in jujutsu/aikido can actually foil the move because they know what's coming. People doing prearranged kumite can change up on the moves but the defender may not pick up on that because he is still working off the script and can get hurt as a result.
The next step up must be a controlled freestyle where attacks and defenses are kept to a minimum number 2,3, or 4 max. (I call these reflex drills.) It begins to allow one to break out of the form and to do what the body hopefully has learned in the basics.
Last step in the dojo is the all out freestyle.
Maurice,
>>Remember that kata, as we know them evolved during a time when the Martial Arts were practiced at least partly in secret and largely alone, so they were, in part, a method to practice when there was no one else to practice on. Patrick McCarthy has saud that in the old days kata was only taught after the student was taught technique and learned it with a partner, so kata was a way to retain the techniques and tactics that were already internalized.<<
I don't know if that was true but it makes a lot of sense to me.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 16, 2000).]
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Scott Danziger
- Posts: 929
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Long Island
- Contact:
Kata.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
When we learn kata we learn by the numbers. Even when doing the bunkai. No matter how much better and quicker you get at it, it is of course choreographed. You know what's coming and we probably are still trying for that perfect technique that you learned in slow motion. Kata by itself appears to be dance.
But, I am just a kyu. I know there is a lot more to it. Take a look at the Kanshiwa Bankai video clip on the streamin video page. (Link in my signature). See for your self if it looks like chaos or a nice, neat, controlled set of prearranged movements.
Scott
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Uechi-Ryu.Com Streaming Video & Audio
The Uechi-Ryu.Com Hotlist
Taking Charge - Cable TV & Video Martial Arts Show
Martial Arts Of Long Island
[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited April 16, 2000).]
I believe on the surface this would appear to be true. Especially to us that don't have the many years of experience either in the arts or in actual confrontations.The unchanged movements of Kata are too stiff and ridgid for me to apply with out being over ran due to the lack of freedom of movement.
When we learn kata we learn by the numbers. Even when doing the bunkai. No matter how much better and quicker you get at it, it is of course choreographed. You know what's coming and we probably are still trying for that perfect technique that you learned in slow motion. Kata by itself appears to be dance.
But, I am just a kyu. I know there is a lot more to it. Take a look at the Kanshiwa Bankai video clip on the streamin video page. (Link in my signature). See for your self if it looks like chaos or a nice, neat, controlled set of prearranged movements.
Scott
------------------
Uechi-Ryu.Com Streaming Video & Audio
The Uechi-Ryu.Com Hotlist
Taking Charge - Cable TV & Video Martial Arts Show
Martial Arts Of Long Island
[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited April 16, 2000).]
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Scott Danziger
- Posts: 929
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Long Island
- Contact:
Kata.
That was open to debate LONG AGO. Not interested in even touching that.
Question has to do with KATA. Did the Kanshiwa Bunkai look real or prearranged? What is your opinion of what you saw. Uechi practitioners will recognize (for the most partr) the movements and techniques of that particular kata.
So what are your thoughts?
Question has to do with KATA. Did the Kanshiwa Bunkai look real or prearranged? What is your opinion of what you saw. Uechi practitioners will recognize (for the most partr) the movements and techniques of that particular kata.
So what are your thoughts?
Kata.
I would submit Mr. L. Wolf, that the possibility exists that although your instructor in karate was not able to show you how to exactly apply your kata to exact application in combat, or you were not able to work it out yourself, that does not preclude that there are others who have done so.
I find your lack of faith in kata one which is widely held.
I remain of the opinion, poor instruction binds the mind of the student and becomes almost impossible to go beyond what they are shown.
Having been incapable of making kata technique work, and striving hard, your choices appear the logical ones many have made.
Of course there are several opportunities here.
One submit kata doesn't work and do something else.
Or, find an instructor who can actually move you in a different direction.
It just is possible one such might exist.
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Victor Smith
I find your lack of faith in kata one which is widely held.
I remain of the opinion, poor instruction binds the mind of the student and becomes almost impossible to go beyond what they are shown.
Having been incapable of making kata technique work, and striving hard, your choices appear the logical ones many have made.
Of course there are several opportunities here.
One submit kata doesn't work and do something else.
Or, find an instructor who can actually move you in a different direction.
It just is possible one such might exist.
------------------
Victor Smith
Kata.
Lone,
Honestly, I've probably only been in about twenty tournaments (judo, karate, jujutsu and european weapons. And you are right. Nothing I did in tournament looked much like kata.
On the other hand, I've had a couple hundred real unarmed encounters (a decade in corrections) and what I did there looked nothing like tournament. Damn. Thinking about it, a lot of it looked just like kata. Who'd a thunk it?
Rory
BTW- standing joint locks do work on resistive people.
Honestly, I've probably only been in about twenty tournaments (judo, karate, jujutsu and european weapons. And you are right. Nothing I did in tournament looked much like kata.
On the other hand, I've had a couple hundred real unarmed encounters (a decade in corrections) and what I did there looked nothing like tournament. Damn. Thinking about it, a lot of it looked just like kata. Who'd a thunk it?
Rory
BTW- standing joint locks do work on resistive people.
